Why was it okay for Xander to love a demon?
- Thread starter Joshua
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I think it was fine for him to love a demon, Buffy loves a vampire with a soul, Willow loves a werewolf and witch etc so why couldn't Xander have someone who is too a demon or whatever. Xander falls in love with their personailty and just see's the human of them just like Buffy and Willow did, and didn't care if they were demonn, if it was bad demon then yeah he would of stopped them or let Buffy deal with them, but with Anya Xander started to forget she was a demon and just saw the human.
I think Xander was just jealous of Angel that he got Buffy even though he was demon, sometimes I went come on Xander just drop it already, but if you knew about his past then yeah you would freak out and all but I think Xander was just caring for his friend. I think Xander got use to Buffy/Angel eventually like in What's My Line he says "Hey! That's our friend, even though I don't like him", with Spike I can see why he can be mad as Spike didn't have a soul and had tried to kill them many many times. But I think it was jealously with Angel.
Sorry about the beginning I got confused 😛
I think Xander was just jealous of Angel that he got Buffy even though he was demon, sometimes I went come on Xander just drop it already, but if you knew about his past then yeah you would freak out and all but I think Xander was just caring for his friend. I think Xander got use to Buffy/Angel eventually like in What's My Line he says "Hey! That's our friend, even though I don't like him", with Spike I can see why he can be mad as Spike didn't have a soul and had tried to kill them many many times. But I think it was jealously with Angel.
Sorry about the beginning I got confused 😛
S
sosa lola
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brinkster130
Riley's BFF
It's always easier to notice someone else's faults rather than acknowledge your own.
Of course it was hypocritical of Xander to judge Buffy for being romantically involved with demons when he himself ended up in the same situation. Xander did seem jealous of Angel early on but I never got the impression that he was jealous of Spike; just that he didn't approve of their relationship.
I don't think Xander (or Buffy) were wrong for developing feeling for demons; especially considering the fact that they look and acted (for the most part) like humans.
Of course it was hypocritical of Xander to judge Buffy for being romantically involved with demons when he himself ended up in the same situation. Xander did seem jealous of Angel early on but I never got the impression that he was jealous of Spike; just that he didn't approve of their relationship.
I don't think Xander (or Buffy) were wrong for developing feeling for demons; especially considering the fact that they look and acted (for the most part) like humans.
The Scourge
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EVIL UU
Scooby
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Because she wasn't a demon.
Check your facts. Xander and Anya got together when Anya was a human, Xander fell in love with a human, not a demon. Actually, he was never in a relationship with a demon, when they started dating Anya was a human, when they broke up Anya was a human, when they got together in season 7 Anya was also a human.
And no, Xander was not jealous of Spike. I mean, why would he even be jealous? She's a high-school crush he got over.
Look, Buffy doesn't even play in his league.
He's a great, handsome, hard-working guy, his girlfriend is much more attractive than Buffy ( "You're the cutest of the Scoobies" ) not to mention, not as ****ed up. It's not jealousy, it's like, you suddenly learn that your best friend or your sister dates a homeless crack cocaine addict, who stole your money and tried to kill you. You'd pissed too. He's angry because he cares about Buffy that's all there is too it.
As to Angel - Xander was not selfless but in the end, he was right. People were killed because Buffy decided to sleep with a vampire. End of story.
[MENTION=11903]AmelRIOT[/MENTION]
You did not just compare dating a werewolf - a living, human being with a manageable condition and dating a witch - a perfectly normal human being with dating a vampire, a human-eating abominable animated corpse, did you?
Seriously, it's not the same.
Check your facts. Xander and Anya got together when Anya was a human, Xander fell in love with a human, not a demon. Actually, he was never in a relationship with a demon, when they started dating Anya was a human, when they broke up Anya was a human, when they got together in season 7 Anya was also a human.
And no, Xander was not jealous of Spike. I mean, why would he even be jealous? She's a high-school crush he got over.
Look, Buffy doesn't even play in his league.
He's a great, handsome, hard-working guy, his girlfriend is much more attractive than Buffy ( "You're the cutest of the Scoobies" ) not to mention, not as ****ed up. It's not jealousy, it's like, you suddenly learn that your best friend or your sister dates a homeless crack cocaine addict, who stole your money and tried to kill you. You'd pissed too. He's angry because he cares about Buffy that's all there is too it.
As to Angel - Xander was not selfless but in the end, he was right. People were killed because Buffy decided to sleep with a vampire. End of story.
[MENTION=11903]AmelRIOT[/MENTION]
You did not just compare dating a werewolf - a living, human being with a manageable condition and dating a witch - a perfectly normal human being with dating a vampire, a human-eating abominable animated corpse, did you?
Seriously, it's not the same.
BuffyElevated
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BuffyElevated
Scooby
Anya wasn't a demon when Xander started dating her... She was an EX demon stuck in human form... Spike and Angel were both still demons; it's a little different. Yes, it's still hypocritical of Xander, but the situations aren't exactly the same.
[MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION] woah! I am allowed my opinon I didn't say anything nasty, I saying even though they are supernatual beings and that was okay to date them, I love it when the charcters in Buffy were in love whoever they wanted to be with, I did not say anything nasty so I don't know why you are attacking me.
Aimee
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white avenger
white avenger
As has been pointed out, Xander was being hypocritical when he passed judgement on Buffy for her relationships with both Angel and Spike, (though he's a long way from being the only hypocrite in the Whedonverse. "Don't do as I do, do as I SAY do," seems to be almost as popular a theme for Joss as "I can make decisions effecting others' lives without consulting them in the matter because I know so much more.") And whether or not Anya was a demon during the time of their actual relationship, she was certainly responsible for far more death and destruction in her bad old days than Angel and Spike combined, but either vampire had done far more good since joining the "good guys" than she ever did, soul or no soul. Throughout her entire time on the show, I can only remember Anya performing one definitely heroic act, and that wasn't until the last episode of the series. The rest of the time, she was barely more than Spike's sexbot.
But, as for whether or not it was "okay" for Xander to love Anya while holding Buffy in judgement for basically the same thing, I'm sure that he (and, no doubt Giles) would be quick to point out that Buffy's case was "different," though I, for one, have never figured out just what that difference is.
But, as for whether or not it was "okay" for Xander to love Anya while holding Buffy in judgement for basically the same thing, I'm sure that he (and, no doubt Giles) would be quick to point out that Buffy's case was "different," though I, for one, have never figured out just what that difference is.
Cheese Slices
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Gum Gnome33
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[MENTION=11903]AmelRIOT[/MENTION]
Relax. Attacking you was not my intention. I just think that there is a huge difference between dating a human being with some acquired magical abilities and dating a non-human, a vampire. A witch can stop using magic, a werewolf can stop wolfing-out but a vampire will always be a monstrosity, sure you can brainwash them by giving them a soul or put a torture chip into their brains but that's not going to change what they are - blood drinking, vile, undead monsters.
For a witch or a werewolf magic is something they use, voluntary or not. Vampires exist purely because of magic, they are created in a magical ritual of mutual blood consumption. So yeah, I agree, the characters can love whatever they want but there is a huge difference between dating a witch or a werewolf and dating a vampire because the latter usually involves brainwashing.
Relax. Attacking you was not my intention. I just think that there is a huge difference between dating a human being with some acquired magical abilities and dating a non-human, a vampire. A witch can stop using magic, a werewolf can stop wolfing-out but a vampire will always be a monstrosity, sure you can brainwash them by giving them a soul or put a torture chip into their brains but that's not going to change what they are - blood drinking, vile, undead monsters.
For a witch or a werewolf magic is something they use, voluntary or not. Vampires exist purely because of magic, they are created in a magical ritual of mutual blood consumption. So yeah, I agree, the characters can love whatever they want but there is a huge difference between dating a witch or a werewolf and dating a vampire because the latter usually involves brainwashing.
[MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION] yes I know all of that, but at any time Tara could of gone dark, Oz could of out of control and use his werewolf to kill others for fun like the other werewolf did, I wasn't saying it was a bad thing to date them. Angelus and Spike are no good example at all I was saying Xander can date whoever he wanted to date like as I said in the my first comment, I said if Buffy and Willow can date whoever they wanna date then so can Xander.
EVIL UU
Yes, humans can also be evil but unlike vampires, evil is not their natural state. Anyway, peace :D
Because you don't chose who you fall in love with?
Demon or ex-demon the problem remains the same - she was (by Xander's definitions of Angel e.g) a murderer.
So I don't think it was 'okay', I just think Xander quite skillfully turned a blind eye to it even though surely it did bother him, he just loved her too much to be willing to let her go because of it, clinging to the 'ex' part of her demon-ness
Demon or ex-demon the problem remains the same - she was (by Xander's definitions of Angel e.g) a murderer.
So I don't think it was 'okay', I just think Xander quite skillfully turned a blind eye to it even though surely it did bother him, he just loved her too much to be willing to let her go because of it, clinging to the 'ex' part of her demon-ness
Because Anya was protected by the rule of funny. And yes, this was an epic fail by the writers but it's not like Xander was the only who treated her murderous past as a minor nuisance, everyone did it.
EVIL UU
It's even better. There's a disturbing dichotomy in Buffy. You're either a murderer and/or a rapist or you get killed/removed from the show. Dawn is the only exception but she's not real. It's kill/rape or be killed, rape culture perfected.
T
The Scourge
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Gum Gnome33
"Well, yeah..."
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Angel, Spike, and Anya are, throughout the series and before, exist in various states of demonic-ness and humanity. It's because of that "grey area" that they all possess that makes us more or less able to stomach the notion of any human being falling in love with either a current demon who does not kill or a former demon who did kill, on any level.
Anya wasn't truly a human throughout her relationship with Xander. Sure, physically she was, but in every other way that counted, she wasn't simply a human--it was far more complicated than that. For 1100 years she was a demon, by choice, (already this is a huge count against her when compared to Angel, Spike and all other vampires), and then suddenly she wasn't, and not by choice. Almost immediately after her powers were taken away from her, she and Xander started dating. So were those Xander's parameters? As long as someone was physically human, regardless of what they'd done almost literally the day before, and in spite of where their values might actually lie, (we know Anya hadn't fully given up her demonic perspectives until season 7), they were OK to date? Yet a vampire who either won't or can't harm anyone, and actively does good things for Buffy and the other scoobies is automatically "off limits" because of his composition? Personally I think it's more complicated than that, but more on that later.
Clearly, the parallels here make Xander hypocritical. To me, it's immediately obvious that Angel is a more suitable choice over Anya when it comes to having the "moral high ground" regarding partner choice; when Buffy is with him he's a hero who chooses to save lives and repent for his past, whereas Anya is merely accepting--begrudgingly, even-- of her new status as human. Sure, she's got one up on Angel because she has human parts but is that really where it counts? Then in season 6 there are direct parallels between Spike and Anya; both are unable to harm and both are helpful to the scoobies, propelled by their deep feelings for one member of the group in particular. Sure in season 6 if it weren't for his feelings for Buffy, Spike might be moping in a corner somewhere or hatching all sorts of plots. And what about Anya? If she weren't accepted by Xander, who's to say she wouldn't be out trying to get her power back, so she could continue doing what she'd done for centuries? Oh, that's right. She does do that. As soon as Xander's not a possibility, she throws her supposed, humanistic, newfound sense of morality out the window and goes off to become a demon again, regardless of the fact that she's "human" when she makes this decision. Around the same time, Spike is in Africa getting his soul so that he can truly be a good man. Again, if we're going to play "moral high ground" here, who's the better partner?
The point is: the simple fact that Anya was technically human while dating Xander doesn't earn him, in my opinion, a pass when it comes to his hypocrisy. That was a merely technical difference. In reality, there were good cases for both avoiding and embracing all three "demons" at various points during Buffy and Xander's relationships with them.
So the hypocrisy is quite clear to me. That being said, because of the aforementioned reality that each relationship had its negative side, it's not at all unreasonable that Xander would be concerned for Buffy's well-being, and for him to express that to her. An alcoholic might be hypocritical in telling his son not to drink so often, but does that mean he shouldn't? He has every right to point out the potential dangers of what his son is doing.
Here's another thing to think about, in Xander's defense. When Buffy was dating Angel, Xander hadn't yet embodied any sort of double standard; he was merely concerned for his friend, and yes, probably jealous that she wasn't with him. Generally speaking though, the issues that he voiced against Angel were not incorrect. Yet in spite of this, Buffy loved him, and he loved her. Is it not possible that when Xander considered dating this former demon of 1100 years, that the notion of Bangel was a bit of a factor? Perhaps on some level he was inspired by it; he'd learned that a demon can love a human and vice versa, and there was a bonus here--Anya was physically human so they wouldn't have the same ropes to negotiate that Buffy and Angel had. And to keep this consistent, when Spike has his soul in season 7, Xander's disapproval is always based on fairly rational concern, in the same way it was with Angel in earlier seasons.
So to sum up: yes he's hypocritical. Dating Anya is not so hugely different from dating a current vampire for all of the reasons I've listed above, (and in some ways potentially worse as I've stated--when it came to this particular former demon). However, Xander is human. He loves Buffy and is not unreasonable in his critique of either vampire. If anything, it bothers me far more that he's inconsistent in how he deals with both vampires, himself. ("We should totally stake them, or they need to stay away from us--but they need to save us, first.") But that's a topic for another thread!
Anya wasn't truly a human throughout her relationship with Xander. Sure, physically she was, but in every other way that counted, she wasn't simply a human--it was far more complicated than that. For 1100 years she was a demon, by choice, (already this is a huge count against her when compared to Angel, Spike and all other vampires), and then suddenly she wasn't, and not by choice. Almost immediately after her powers were taken away from her, she and Xander started dating. So were those Xander's parameters? As long as someone was physically human, regardless of what they'd done almost literally the day before, and in spite of where their values might actually lie, (we know Anya hadn't fully given up her demonic perspectives until season 7), they were OK to date? Yet a vampire who either won't or can't harm anyone, and actively does good things for Buffy and the other scoobies is automatically "off limits" because of his composition? Personally I think it's more complicated than that, but more on that later.
Clearly, the parallels here make Xander hypocritical. To me, it's immediately obvious that Angel is a more suitable choice over Anya when it comes to having the "moral high ground" regarding partner choice; when Buffy is with him he's a hero who chooses to save lives and repent for his past, whereas Anya is merely accepting--begrudgingly, even-- of her new status as human. Sure, she's got one up on Angel because she has human parts but is that really where it counts? Then in season 6 there are direct parallels between Spike and Anya; both are unable to harm and both are helpful to the scoobies, propelled by their deep feelings for one member of the group in particular. Sure in season 6 if it weren't for his feelings for Buffy, Spike might be moping in a corner somewhere or hatching all sorts of plots. And what about Anya? If she weren't accepted by Xander, who's to say she wouldn't be out trying to get her power back, so she could continue doing what she'd done for centuries? Oh, that's right. She does do that. As soon as Xander's not a possibility, she throws her supposed, humanistic, newfound sense of morality out the window and goes off to become a demon again, regardless of the fact that she's "human" when she makes this decision. Around the same time, Spike is in Africa getting his soul so that he can truly be a good man. Again, if we're going to play "moral high ground" here, who's the better partner?
The point is: the simple fact that Anya was technically human while dating Xander doesn't earn him, in my opinion, a pass when it comes to his hypocrisy. That was a merely technical difference. In reality, there were good cases for both avoiding and embracing all three "demons" at various points during Buffy and Xander's relationships with them.
So the hypocrisy is quite clear to me. That being said, because of the aforementioned reality that each relationship had its negative side, it's not at all unreasonable that Xander would be concerned for Buffy's well-being, and for him to express that to her. An alcoholic might be hypocritical in telling his son not to drink so often, but does that mean he shouldn't? He has every right to point out the potential dangers of what his son is doing.
Here's another thing to think about, in Xander's defense. When Buffy was dating Angel, Xander hadn't yet embodied any sort of double standard; he was merely concerned for his friend, and yes, probably jealous that she wasn't with him. Generally speaking though, the issues that he voiced against Angel were not incorrect. Yet in spite of this, Buffy loved him, and he loved her. Is it not possible that when Xander considered dating this former demon of 1100 years, that the notion of Bangel was a bit of a factor? Perhaps on some level he was inspired by it; he'd learned that a demon can love a human and vice versa, and there was a bonus here--Anya was physically human so they wouldn't have the same ropes to negotiate that Buffy and Angel had. And to keep this consistent, when Spike has his soul in season 7, Xander's disapproval is always based on fairly rational concern, in the same way it was with Angel in earlier seasons.
So to sum up: yes he's hypocritical. Dating Anya is not so hugely different from dating a current vampire for all of the reasons I've listed above, (and in some ways potentially worse as I've stated--when it came to this particular former demon). However, Xander is human. He loves Buffy and is not unreasonable in his critique of either vampire. If anything, it bothers me far more that he's inconsistent in how he deals with both vampires, himself. ("We should totally stake them, or they need to stay away from us--but they need to save us, first.") But that's a topic for another thread!
The thing is, Anya not being a demon but still cracking jokes about her murders and feeling no repentance whatsoever makes the tolerance the Scoobies had for her even worse in a sense. At least if she were a demon one could explain away her sociopathic tendencies with "she can't be any other way". Anya is never treated like a psychopath, she is treated like a funny foreigner who can't understand the customs of the other characters. This isn't a Xander issue, it's a general writing problem. I feel pretty confident in saying that if the writers could go back and cast someone else as Anyanka while having Emma Caulfield take the role of some literal foreigner or a harmless demon like Lorne they would have, because they never felt like treating her murderous past seriously, except for Selfless after which it was promptly ignored once again.
JCoatsworth
UP THE IRONS!
I think it's okay for him, because there's basically nothing negative about it.
The same goes for Willow.
But the problem with Buffy's relationship with Angel was that he could lose his soul. And Spike didn't even have a soul at all.
Oz only became a demon once every few weeks and Anya wasn't even a demon anymore.
The same goes for Willow.
But the problem with Buffy's relationship with Angel was that he could lose his soul. And Spike didn't even have a soul at all.
Oz only became a demon once every few weeks and Anya wasn't even a demon anymore.
brinkster130
Riley's BFF
It's true she wasn't a demon anymore but there was no guarantee she wouldn't become one again; as we saw with the frat boys she killed, her becoming a vengeance demon again was a very real possibility and something Xander (and the Scoobies) should have been more cautious about.
prophecygrrl
The girl in question
Without getting into the hypocrisy issue, I think the biggest reason why Anya was "okay" with most of the Scoobies was because she wasn't a threat when she was human. Her becoming a vengeance demon again was considered basically impossible. She definitely tried to get her powers back, and when she couldn't, was told that it was her punishment to live out her life as a mortal. She does get them back in Season 7, but all the time until then, her becoming a vengeance demon again isn't a possibility. Not to mention, she is legitimately trying to learn what it means to be a human again, and that's no small feat. Plus, what are the Scoobies going to do- kill a human Anya?
I also don't think the show and the Scoobies were always black and white on who was allowed in the hero club. So much of the show (and of Angel, too) was focused on what it means to be a slayer, a human, a demon who can't be a demon, a demon who doesn't want to be a demon. Which is why we get Buffy thinking she's turning into a stone, imbued with demon essence, evil, murdering human villains in Season 6 juxtaposed with the Scoobies and their human issues, Spike and his four season long identity crisis, and Angel becoming the Power's champion. That's where the tension of this demon/human universe is. You get characters relearning how to live.
I also don't think the show and the Scoobies were always black and white on who was allowed in the hero club. So much of the show (and of Angel, too) was focused on what it means to be a slayer, a human, a demon who can't be a demon, a demon who doesn't want to be a demon. Which is why we get Buffy thinking she's turning into a stone, imbued with demon essence, evil, murdering human villains in Season 6 juxtaposed with the Scoobies and their human issues, Spike and his four season long identity crisis, and Angel becoming the Power's champion. That's where the tension of this demon/human universe is. You get characters relearning how to live.
How about not being friends with her or wanting to date her? Yes, she might not have her powers but she wanted to have them back and was basically an affable sociopath. If I meet a war criminal who currently has no political power or other means to harm people that doesn't mean I would want to be friends with that person. I like Anya a lot more than I like Faith but considering their respective crimes Faith was treated far more harshly than Anya despite doing far less harm. This double standard just doesn't make sense in-story, it's very clearly the rule of funny in play.
prophecygrrl
The girl in question
But she's not a complete sociopath. A sociopath wouldn't care about having friends or being a useful member of society, and she certainly wouldn't fall in love. As a human, she always speaks of her past with a certain kind of detachedness, because that's not her anymore and she understands it never will be again. It's not all sunshine and roses when she has that realization, but it's the reality of it and she accepts it. Whatever evil or penchant for destruction in her is strictly related to the demon. If human Anya was just as much of a sociopath as vengeance demon Anya, why isn't she trying to exact vengeance and murder other humans as a human? Even if she can't eviscerate people with her mind any more, she's smart and resourceful and if she gets out of Sunnydale, there's really nothing stopping her from just plain eviscerating people. Which is not to say that lalala, if you don't eviscerate people you're a saint because it's the bare minimum for humanity, but if we're dealing with extremes here, it is kinda significant that as a human she readily accepts ties to humanity, like her relationship with Xander and her job at the Magic Box, and tries to improve herself all the while.
I do agree that the writers played the Anya stuff for comedy a LOT, often at the expense of Anya herself (how many of the jokes are about how ridiculous she is, not how horrifying her crimes were?), but I still think she was more than that. Feeling isolated and reintegrating yourself into the world is still a pretty compelling story.