Why we fight?

[Black Eye Guy]

A lot of us have been very feisty round here lately, and the reason for discussions has come up from time to time throughout arguments, and I was just wondering why you choose to discuss the show? Do you want to convince the other person their wrong and change their opinion, or just read others opinions and think on them for a while? What do you think is the most annoying discussion?

For me, each discussion is a battle, unless it's something general, but each opinion discussion is a chance to change someones opinion or have my opinion changed.

I like reading other peoples opinions, but I dont really care about their opinion unless I can analyze it and I'd need to question that person to breakdown and understand or dismiss their view. Like I can't read blog post opinions, they just drive me crazy since you can't reply to the person and correct them or question them on something.

I've read a couple recently that were written with a Spike bias, when I was getting quotes for an argument, and it was the most painful experience ever.

That probably sounds stubborn, but it's not. I like to have people breakdown my opinions and point out the flaws in them, The most recent thing I changed my opinion on was what the Wishverse was, and I had changed my theory on the slayer line several times after multiple discussions on that topic.

For me the most annoying discussion is the shipper ones, as even when you breakdown their argument and give evidence that just completely corrects them they can just completely ignore it.

Last question, in a discussion, have you ever thought of an opinion the counters yours that you wouldn't want to debate against? Like you're just hoping someone doesn't think of it as you wouldn't want to debate against that point?

I have, and I'm just glad no ones ever brought it up 🙂

 

[white avenger]

For me the most annoying discussion is the shipper ones, as even when you breakdown their argument and give evidence that just completely corrects them they can just completely ignore it.

I totally agree. Some of these rabid shippers get so tangled up in their own senseless rhetoric that they become totally blinded to anyone else's opinions or rebuttals, no matter how astute and well thought out they may be.

 

[Blaze]

A lot of us have been very feisty round here lately, and the reason for discussions has come up from time to time throughout arguments, and I was just wondering why you choose to discuss the show? Do you want to convince the other person their wrong and change their opinion, or just read others opinions and think on them for a while? What do you think is the most annoying discussion?

I tend to discuss the show not because I want to change anyone's opinion but more so because I want my opinion to be heard and I want to hear what other's have to say. In fact, I like when people disagree because it really gets the conversation started. I find the whole point of the board is to have a good discussion and there's no better way to do that than to disagree with people and have an intelligence argument. In like it in general, I am a pretty argumentative person. Sometimes I do try to change people's opinion, but usually putting my point across is more important. I like hearing different views even if neither of us are ready to change opinions.

I love when a conversation actually makes me think. I love when it makes me doubt something, or second guess something. In fact, I know I'm having a good debate when you actually have to think of your arguments, and put them across in a way that you know is "right" or at least well thought and makes sense.

The most annoying discussion is definitely the Spuffy/Bangel debate. I tend to not even get involved because I love both relationship and will defend either of them if I disagree with what people are saying, but I find things just get a bit out of control and the arguments stop being smart and well thought, and by default the conversation or debate is not fun anymore to me because it's like talking to a brick wall. If someone is able to keep their argument with proofs from the show, or theories that are well thought, I'm all for a ship war. And I've seen some very good arguments on this board that even though I might not agree with, I can recognise how intelligent the theories are.

I like reading other peoples opinions, but I dont really care about their opinion unless I can analyze it and I'd need to question that person to breakdown and understand or dismiss their view. Like I can't read blog post opinions, they just drive me crazy since you can't reply to the person and correct them or question them on something.

Completely agree about the analysing. What's the point of a discussion if you can't reply, ask for feedback or questions or debate your point. To me, debating and dissection a post is very fun. Never will I critique something in a mean way, or never will I just dismiss people's opinion, but debating is the whole point of those threads, and I think it's very important in keeping the board alive.

Last question, in a discussion, have you ever thought of an opinion the counters yours that you wouldn't want to debate against? Like you're just hoping someone doesn't think of it as you wouldn't want to debate against that point?

I have, and I'm just glad no ones ever brought it up 🙂

Yes of course. The thing with the Buffyverse is that you can make so much from the show, and then some theories are based on things that weren't explicitly said. They might be hinted by actions, but because no one on the show came and said it, it really is just a theory. And even in the best theories, you can find a loop hole, and in some cases, you just hope that people won't realize that something can actually counter your argument.

 

[NightLady]

A lot of us have been very feisty round here lately, and the reason for discussions has come up from time to time throughout arguments, and I was just wondering why you choose to discuss the show? Do you want to convince the other person their wrong and change their opinion, or just read others opinions and think on them for a while? What do you think is the most annoying discussion?

I discuss the show because I love it, and I think it's normal to want to discuss something you love. I do it on the web because I have no one in R.L. who shares this interest of mine (I know, you didn't ask but I wanted to say it all the same XD).
I don't care to change other's opinion... though I wouldn't be displeased if it happened 😛
I like to read other's opinions (if and when they are properly and intelligently expressed of course) because they can change my perspective of the show and sometimes reveal new details I missed.
The most annoying discussion to me is when someone keeps speaking ill of the writers of the show and their work. I strongly dislike it, not because I think the writers made no mistake, but firstly because they are real persons (and while I don't care for character's bashing, to bash a real person is a different matter) and secondly because I don't understand how someone can call him/her self a fan of the show and then criticize those who made it.
Another discussion that annoys me is when someone looks out for every opportunity to bring out his/her hate for a particular character even when this character has nothing to do with the topic in question. I get that everyone has his/hers own preferences but it makes me think that this person has nothing better to do of his/her life!

For me the most annoying discussion is the shipper ones, as even when you breakdown their argument and give evidence that just completely corrects them they can just completely ignore it.

That too. But I have to say that there some evidences that are evident only to the one who gives it 🙂
Anyway, I try to avoid this kind of discussions and when I stumble upon some particular feisty member I try to avoid him/her as well. I have come to the conclusion that some are a lost cause, so I prefer to ignore them and use my time for more interesting discussions.

Last question, in a discussion, have you ever thought of an opinion the counters yours that you wouldn't want to debate against? Like you're just hoping someone doesn't think of it as you wouldn't want to debate against that point?

I have, and I'm just glad no ones ever brought it up 🙂

😕 can you elaborate? I'm not sure I understood the question!

 

[Kairos]

 

[Robb Stark]

The shipping ones bug me. I don't mind discussing it, but they almost always get personal and they often bleed into other threads. That drives me nuts.

Mindless character bashing bugs me too, regardless of who it is. There are...a few instances where a user becomes SO fixated on a specific character that they bring it up in virtually every thread, even when that thread has nothing to do with what that character. I just don't understand the point of that. There are a number of BTVS characters I don't like, and I will engage in discussion of that in relevant threads, but I don't bring it up constantly, and I never belittle others for liking said character. More than any other thing here, that annoys me.

Has there been an argument I haven't wanted to defend? Actually, yeah. When you and I were going back and forth about Willow and Tara a few days ago, I was just hoping you wouldn't bring up Angel erasing time. I freaking knew you would though, so I spent more time than I should have figuring out a way to counter, and sure enough, there it was 🙄.

Why do I come here? Initially it was because I wanted to talk about the show more, as I didn't have anyone beyond my brother and mom to discuss it with. That element is still there, but I do enjoy the debating aspect of it. It's a fun and creative outlet to keep my writing prose relatively sharp, and there are a number of regular posters on BB who I just like talking with.

 

[The Chosen]

I've noticed a lot of this lately as well.

I think people mistake the concept of "debating" with "arguing." Arguments are heated and messy and personal. That's not what a debate. Debating is (supposed to be) an organized exchange of information and ideas. If that information happens to invalidate someone else's stance, then, okay. Awesome. More discussion for you! Which is really the purpose of a forum, right?

I know I'm never going to change someone's mind about Spuffy or what the end of Normal Again means or anything like that...but that doesn't mean that I can't have a civil discussion/debate with them about our opposing viewpoints.

People just take stuff too seriously lately. Knock it off, guys! 😛

 

[EffyStonem]

I like to discuss the Buffyverse because it's so versatile and there are so many different discussions to be had. For the most part and with most topics I enjoy reading others' points of views and offering my own. I also tend to have a lot of unpopular/different opinions and I like being able to offer those up for thought.

Now, at the risk of being completely alienated, I will admit to arguing against Spuffy as a ship for a deeper reason; I truly believe that Spuffy is a dangerous and vile ship. For the most part when people ship the opposing ship to mine (for example Cangel or Fresley) I'll state my reasons for disliking the ship but I'll understand the appeal for other people and generally leave the ships alone. However I cannot do that with Spuffy and I probably never will; and while it's made me quite a few enemies in the Buffy fandom I won't stop because I believe my points are valid and important.

 

[EVIL UU]

It's fun. The moment it stops being entertaining, I'm out.

 

[Lyri]

It's fun. The moment it stops being entertaining, I'm out.

But it's not fun to a lot of people - the reactions and posts in the 'Understand Buffy after the AR' thread proves that. People got upset and were crying because of other members' posts. That's not fun to me - that's pretty much the opposite.

Me, I don't debate anything I don't like. You'll very rarely find me in Spuffy V Bangel threads or Spike V Angel, because those aren't fun for me. They get nasty and heated and people get unfair labels attached to them because they say they hate one or the other. I don't come here to get told that I'm wrong or an idiot (which has happened) or that my opinion is invalid because I don't like Spike.

I stay out of threads that I think are going to devolve into arguments or ones that I know I won't be able to let it go if I know someone will disagree with me, because I don't like that feeling of dread that I get when someone replies. I can't do that whole separation of internet and real life (as a few of you will know and remember).

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=6332]Lyri[/MENTION]

I stay out of threads that I think are going to devolve into arguments or ones that I know I won't be able to let it go if I know someone will disagree with me, because I don't like that feeling of dread that I get when someone replies.

I know that feel but then I'm like, wait a second...that's just irrational. You know, I don't feel like I have to be right all time. It's OK to be wrong. If I can be proven wrong that is. You're wrong because you're wrong doesn't work on me, it shouldn't on you either. When some opinion ruffles my feathers I try to understand it, keep my head open and point out why I think it's incorrect. When people resort to personal attacks I just report them and/or put them on the ignore list. And because discussion should be fun I try to keep my posts entertaining.

But it's not fun to a lot of people - the reactions and posts in the 'Understand Buffy after the AR' thread proves that. People got upset and were crying because of other members' posts.

Getting emotionally upset because somebody else has a different opinion seems incredibly self-centered to me.
[MENTION=12223]EffyStonem[/MENTION]

it's made me quite a few enemies in the Buffy fandom I won't stop because I believe my points are valid and important.

Hey, welcome to the club.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Personally, I don't want to fight at all lol. I like discussing what people think is going to happen (problematic when the show has ended 😉) and hearing their ideas, dissecting meanings and clues.

 

[Kean]

I can offer you no explanation as to why I continue to talk about the Buffyverse other than I simply cannot seem to stop. I've tried and I still end up back here. Fighting with people is exactly the last thing I want to do. I detest the idea of being here to change people's minds. I think if you are posting regularly on sites like this then Buffy has meaning to you beyond the regular "That is a thing I like." I have no desire to try to mess up whatever sense this show or characters make to you. However, that will not stop me disagreeing with you. I love it when I come across a poster I can really spar with.

It's not about proving someone wrong but stretching the legs of my own argument and seeing how far it can run for. I want people to poke holes in it just to see if I can fill them up. Every post I make I am thinking how someone can argue against what I am saying and how I would counter it.

I'm a lot more selective about the threads I participate in now. Like anyone who has spent time in fandom, I've been burned enough to know what will remain fun and what will make me regret ever watching the show. Usually I'm good at avoiding the lost cause threads, baring threads that deal with the AR. That is the one thing that I will not budge on. I hate Spuffy, but I can still enjoy the lighter shippy threads, but when it comes to the AR I hold my POV with total conviction. Call that what you will but that particular issue cuts deep with me and softening on my stance is not in the cards.

 

[sk]

For me it's not really about debating and arguing.
I have no interest in changing anyone's opinion.
It never works anyway and it's not often it bothers me when peoples opinions is different from mine.

The fun thing is to see others opinions, not changing them.

I mostly post when I feel that it can be good to point out that other opinions actually do exits.
So every now and then I can make a post just to declare my view of things.

It's very rare that I get into any longer discussion though.

/SK

 

[Taake]

I just enjoy talking (obsessing) about the shows. I love them so I need to vent that love somehow. I try to avoid too heated discussions because I don't really want to change opinions, in those cases I more just want to be heard and achieve some ground of mutual respect before moving on. I like reading posts and discussion threads though because I like being introduced to new ideas or different points of view. 🙂

 

[zobothehobo]

I don't argue about the show or any other work of fiction to convince someone of my opinion and show them they're wrong. I do it to show people my point of view. Because I feel like our opinions of fiction are really personal to us. They tell the story of who we are, especially when a work means a lot to us like Buffy does to many of us. So when I'm arguing on here, or on tumblr, or anywhere... it's just to show people "this is how I see it."

Since I do get very emotional and very irritated when people refuse to see the show any way other than their way and then refuse to listen to my points... people tend to think that I'm trying to make everyone agree with me. But I think that's a really selfish way of looking at life. Not everyone's going to agree with you and even if you don't agree, that other person's point of view deserves respect too. I mean who told you your view was The Right one and you are so special to be Right about everything all the time? Cause the flip side of that is that everyone else is wrong all the time. There is no equality in absolute thinking like that. So I don't participate in it.

I just have a lot of feelings and opinions and this show has shaped my life in such a profound way, literally the only reason I keep coming back to this board is because I want to share my feelings, opinions, and life with the world.

 

[white avenger]

I would like to suggest that what we do here isn't actually fighting. Okay, yes, sometimes somebody gets their skivvies in a twist and things go a bit too far before calmer minds, usually one of the mods, steps in and separates the involved parties. But that is the exception to the rule, and, thankfully, never actually gets to the nastiness that it could have.

If I might make a comparison to something that I have been practicing even longer than I have been a Buffy fan and Spuffy supporter, what we do here is, or should be, more like the sparring matches that we practice in the martial arts. The purpose of sparring is to practice and perfect the techniques that we learn in class. A student can spend all of his time kicking a bag or practicing non contact exercises, and he will never know if what he has learned, and his interpretation of the techniques that he is trying to perfect are actually valid. The only practical, safe way to actually do that is by using what he knows against a partner (opponents are someone you meet in a dark alley that you shouldn't have been in in the first place)

That's what I prefer to think that we do here. We test our logic, beliefs, interpretations, and, in some cases, guesses and imagination, against a partner who doesn't necessarily share our opinions. I may get frustrated at what Miss K believes about Spike, and I might want to (figuratively) strangle Black Eye Guy because he refuses to accept my theory about Olaf's hammer, but that's only because we have differing opinions about something that we mutually enjoy. I wouldn't wish either one of them any actual physical harm. It's not my fault that they're always wrong.

Anyhow, I think that what we do here is spar, in a competitive and enthusiastic, but (almost) never actually hostile fashion. Fighting isn't fun, it's a matter of survival, and it's something that any intelligent person tries to avoid in all but the most extreme circumstances. Sparring is fun, educational, and helps perfect our technique. So, let's spar and not fight.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

This was a very poorly titled thread on my behalf. I honestly used that title cuz it was the name of an Angel episode, so it tied in thematically, I should have called the thread 'Why we debate'.

 

[white avenger]

This was a very poorly titled thread on my behalf. I honestly used that title cuz it was the name of an Angel episode, so it tied in thematically, I should have called the thread 'Why we debate'.

Nahhh, "Why We Fight" is a much catchier title. Who would want to contribute to a thread with a wimpy title like "Why We Debate?" Any good salesman knows that you have to draw the customer in before you can show him your goods, and what Buffy fan doesn't love a good fight?

 

[BananaBuffy]

You might note that it's a little silly for someone who has not been on this board in years to come into this thread. You might also say 'welcome back' and 'it's nice to see you around again' because that would be nice. But I just read through this thread and I have so many things to say, and nothing to say all at the same time. It's funny how that happens really. Like most, I don't want to fight with people. Hell, that's the last thing I want to do. I'm not in a debate to turn it into a fight. But I also don't agree with the opening post here. Which isn't to say that you're not entitled to your opinion. It just isn't mine.

Here's the thing. This thread was opened with a question 'why do we fight?' You wanted to know why we argue on this board. Why are we here? What do we get out of it? You then proceeded to tell us what you got out of it by saying that you are here to convince other people of your opinion. As much as you're entitled to that, just as I'm entitled to the way I feel about things, I do not understand that at all. That's a rather forceful reason for debate, is it not? So, because I'm a dork and because I like definitions, I looked up the word 'debate.' It means 'A formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward.' I mean, take that how you will but I don't understand how forcing someone to share your opinion comes into that.

Sure, it is possible that some people will grow to see your side. But when I come here to talk about Buffy and to debate Buffy...I don't want to change anybody's minds. I mean, it'd be awesome if you could see where I'm coming from but if you don't agree then that's okay. Have you ever heard songs for young children talking about how difference is great and if everybody thought and looked the same then the world would be boring? Well, I believe that this lesson is perfectly relevant to adults as well - or teengaers and elders. I may be a Spuffy fan but I wouldn't want everybody on this board to be a Spuffy fan. I may despise Cordelia and Angel as a couple, but it doesn't mean you have to. I just find it interesting talking to people who disagree with me and exploring their point of view. That's why I'm here. I don't want to antagonize, I just want to talk.

This may not be particularly well worded. I also realized halfway through why I suck at writing essays. My thoughts are stars I cannot fathom into constellations. Regardless, maybe soon I'll figure out what I wanted to say. I'll just leave you with this for the moment.