Why we fight?

[Black Eye Guy]

A debate still has a winner and a loser. At the end of a debate usually an audience or judges decide who was better at making their points, I dont know if the American political debates officially declare winners but the media certainly do.

Unless your on a debate team in school, and get assigned a topic, your gonna be debating a topic you feel passionately about and you believe is right.

If you wanted to just put your thoughts out there and just let them be, you post them to twitter or a blog, you wanna engage in discussion you join a message boards, the entire point is to explore the show, discuss whats right and wrong, by putting your opinion out there you are showing others your interpretation of the show and what you believe is the right version, even if your not actively thinking "I'm gonna change this persons opinion", by putting your version out there in a discussion your gonna have the person reading it assess it against their own, and either realize they've made a mistake in how they've read something or it's gonna enforce the idea you already have, or they incorporate it into their own theory.

 

[zobothehobo]

A debate still has a winner and a loser. At the end of a debate usually an audience or judges decide who was better at making their points, I dont know if the American political debates officially declare winners but the media certainly do.

Unless your on a debate team in school, and get assigned a topic, your gonna be debating a topic you feel passionately about and you believe is right.

If you wanted to just put your thoughts out there and just let them be, you post them to twitter or a blog, you wanna engage in discussion you join a message boards, the entire point is to explore the show, discuss whats right and wrong, by putting your opinion out there you are showing others your interpretation of the show and what you believe is the right version, even if your not actively thinking "I'm gonna change this persons opinion", by putting your version out there in a discussion your gonna have the person reading it assess it against their own, and either realize they've made a mistake in how they've read something or it's gonna enforce the idea you already have, or they incorporate it into their own theory.

The problem here for me is that "engaging in discussion" and "discussing what's right and wrong" are two different things. The later is an application of the first. I would like to engage in discussion about the show... because I think that different opinions are cool because they tell the stories of different people. Also I think it's awesome to talk to people who are like minded too. This is discussion. And none of it is in the context of making claims to "right" and "wrong."

 

[Black Eye Guy]

The problem here for me is that "engaging in discussion" and "discussing what's right and wrong" are two different things. The later is an application of the first. I would like to engage in discussion about the show... because I think that different opinions are cool because they tell the stories of different people. Also I think it's awesome to talk to people who are like minded too. This is discussion. And none of it is in the context of making claims to "right" and "wrong."

Like I said you dont have to be thinking I'm gonna change this persons opinion, but by posting yours on a discussion forum thats what you are doing.

If I said in a post that Willow was clearly always a lesbian, your rely to me isn't going to be 'oh thats interesting, please expand?', it's going to be no 'I didn't see it that way she clearly believed she was straight before she met Tara'

that is pretty much how every thread goes, your not outright saying 'no your wrong, this is how it happened' your saying 'this is my interpretation' - but your still disagreeing with my interpretation and informing me of yours.

Maybe not on a conscious level, so not intentionally, but on some level by disagreeing with me and giving me an alternate version you are trying to show me how I'm wrong.

Thats why people ask for references in a discussion. That's the entire point of a discussion, without disagreeing with someones views there is no discussion and things become a blog, and by disagreeing with someone your saying their wrong, and there shouldn't be anything wrong with that.

 

[zobothehobo]

Like I said you dont have to be thinking I'm gonna change this persons opinion, but by posting yours on a discussion forum thats what you are doing.

If I said in a post that Willow was clearly always a lesbian, your rely to me isn't going to be 'oh thats interesting, please expand?', it's going to be no 'I didn't see it that way she clearly believed she was straight before she met Tara'

that is pretty much how every thread goes, your not outright saying 'no your wrong, this is how it happened' your saying 'this is my interpretation' - but your still disagreeing with my interpretation and informing me of yours.

Maybe not on a conscious level, so not intentionally, but on some level by disagreeing with me and giving me an alternate version you are trying to show me how I'm wrong.

Thats why people ask for references in a discussion. That's the entire point of a discussion, without disagreeing with someones views there is no discussion and things become a blog, and by disagreeing with someone your saying their wrong, and there shouldn't be anything wrong with that.

But you're implying intention. You're implying subconscious intention to my actions, and I'm telling you that that's not even a subconscious intention to my actions. My actions do not have that intention at all.

And how do you know what I'd say? I know I've had conversations on that topic before on this board... but I haven't posted on that topic here on this board in several years... Since I last posted on that topic, I've come to redefine sexual identities and what they mean to me as I've come to find a sexual identity I feel truly comfortable with for the first time ever. How presumptuous to assume what I'd say. This is my point in my first post though... The way I'd react to "Willow was always a lesbian" is very routed in my personal journey of understanding my sexuality and what sexuality means to me. In the same way, someone else's statement "Willow was always a lesbian" could be routed very much in their personal journey of understanding their sexuality and what sexuality means to them. In that way, it would be really absurd of me to try to convince them of my opinion without learning why they have their own opinion.

I guess a better way of explaining why I come to message boards is to connect. I am not here to argue or to fight, or even to debate. These things come with the territory... but I am here to connect. I want to connect with people.. both similar minded people and different minded people. People with similar lives and people with different lives. I want to understand people and connect with them.

Of course, that's why I do almost anything I ever do. To connect. It's a central point of my life.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

But you're implying intention. You're implying subconscious intention to my actions, and I'm telling you that that's not even a subconscious intention to my actions. My actions do not have that intention at all.

Well take it from personal experience discussing a topic with you, your posts come across just as much about proving your right and I'm wrong as mine do.

And how do you know what I'd say? I know I've had conversations on that topic before on this board... but I haven't posted on that topic here on this board in several years... Since I last posted on that topic, I've come to redefine sexual identities and what they mean to me as I've come to find a sexual identity I feel truly comfortable with for the first time ever. How presumptuous to assume what I'd say. This is my point in my first post though... The way I'd react to "Willow was always a lesbian" is very routed in my personal journey of understanding my sexuality and what sexuality means to me. In the same way, someone else's statement "Willow was always a lesbian" could be routed very much in their personal journey of understanding their sexuality and what sexuality means to them. In that way, it would be really absurd of me to try to convince them of my opinion without learning why they have their own opinion.

It was a completely made up example, I had no clue what your view on the topic was, the example I gave as my own isn't something I believe.

 

[zobothehobo]

Well take it from personal experience discussing a topic with you, your posts come across just as much about proving your right and I'm wrong as mine do.

I've found through years of discussing opinions with people on the internet that my opinions only come off as proving myself right when I feel I'm not being listened to. I get overly emotional, and it is a fault of mine I know an accept... but it only comes out when I feel I'm not being listened to.

It was a completely made up example, I had no clue what your view on the topic was, the example I gave as my own isn't something I believe.

My point still stands.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I've found through years of discussing opinions with people on the internet that my opinions only come off as proving myself right when I feel I'm not being listened to. I get overly emotional, and it is a fault of mine I know an accept... but it only comes out when I feel I'm not being listened to.

Well to be honest I know I've had discussions with you were I'd explained that I understood your view, but it was just wrong and went on to explain how I thought you were wrong.
If wanting to be listened to was your aim, that should have been enough, but it isn't you were clearly trying to convince me I was wrong. I've also seen it in discussions with other people also. Your aim is to show the other person their wrong, why would you question other peoples theories and try to show them how their wrong if it wasn't to prove your right and their theory is wrong? It's what a discussion should be about.

My point still stands.

Right well you kinda didn't reply to my point and went off about the example scenario I gave. My original point was if the idea was just to put thoughts out there, discussions would be 'here's what I believe' and the reply would be 'please expand on your view', but they're not, the reply is going to be 'I didn't see it your way, here's how I saw it' - so your saying you disagree with someones view and showing them another example of what could be right, you might even through in an reference to prove their wrong.

TOTALLY MADE UP EXAMPLE:

If I said "I hate Dawn, she came stomping into that room, she's always bitchy or moaning in season 5", and you disagreed your reply would probably be along the lines of "I dont think she was being bitchy, she didn't say anything bitchy and she was actually helping Xander out in that room, Joss actually said in the commentary that the shoes Michelle was wearing that day were heavy so she really had to lift her feet, so thats probably why it came across as stomping"
-It's perfectly polite, it's an exchange of opinions, nothing rude, your not saying I'm right your wrong, but your opinion still discredits mine, your opinion still shows how I'm wrong and you are right - this is how pretty much all threads go.

 

[white avenger]

Kean agrees: Aw, you finally admitted that I annoy you. SUCCESS! My job here is done

Then your job is nowhere near done, Miss K. I said that I get FRUSTRATED with you, not annoyed. My frustration is that I keep trying to lead you out into the glorious truth and sunshine of Spuffy, while you still cower in the dank, dark, deluded abyss that is Bangel. But don't worry, sweet lady. You are my personal mission, and I will never rest until success is mine and salvation is yours.

Annoyed is something that I get at noisy, ill mannered children whose parents have never taken the time to teach them proper behavior.

 

[BananaBuffy]

I think the thing that we're really dealing with here is the way the words 'right' and 'wrong' keep getting thrown around. We're also talking about interpretation. When it comes to interpreting a work such as this, there is no right or wrong interpretation. Let me bring up the ever questioned Buffy sleeping with Spike in season seven situation. Perhaps you think she didn't and I think she did. Because it is not something we were outright told, we can interpret it out we want. In fact, much of watching a television series is interpretation. We're reading between the lines and drawing our own conclusions. But these are our own conclusions.

While we do share these with one another in debate, we should not be trying to convince another person that their interpretation is wrong. In most cases that is completely undermining anybody else's opinion but your own. While I have my opinion, I do want to hear yours and debate with you. But if you are trying to convince me that I'm wrong in the way I have personally seen a television show, then I may get offended. Just because I don't see it how you see it, it doesn't mean I'm wrong. There is no right and wrong in interpretation. There is only how we see things.

Yes, I may be influenced by your opinion to see something a certain way. I may not be. But don't try to make me feel as if the way I see something is incorrect because it isn't.

 

[zobothehobo]

Well to be honest I know I've had discussions with you were I'd explained that I understood your view, but it was just wrong and went on to explain how I thought you were wrong.
If wanting to be listened to was your aim, that should have been enough, but it isn't you were clearly trying to convince me I was wrong. I've also seen it in discussions with other people also. Your aim is to show the other person their wrong, why would you question other peoples theories and try to show them how their wrong if it wasn't to prove your right and their theory is wrong? It's what a discussion should be about.



Right well you kinda didn't reply to my point and went off about the example scenario I gave. My original point was if the idea was just to put thoughts out there, discussions would be 'here's what I believe' and the reply would be 'please expand on your view', but they're not, the reply is going to be 'I didn't see it your way, here's how I saw it' - so your saying you disagree with someones view and showing them another example of what could be right, you might even through in an reference to prove their wrong.

TOTALLY MADE UP EXAMPLE:

If I said "I hate Dawn, she came stomping into that room, she's always bitchy or moaning in season 5", and you disagreed your reply would probably be along the lines of "I dont think she was being bitchy, she didn't say anything bitchy and she was actually helping Xander out in that room, Joss actually said in the commentary that the shoes Michelle was wearing that day were heavy so she really had to lift her feet, so thats probably why it came across as stomping"
-It's perfectly polite, it's an exchange of opinions, nothing rude, your not saying I'm right your wrong, but your opinion still discredits mine, your opinion still shows how I'm wrong and you are right - this is how pretty much all threads go.

1. Please stop trying to tell me what I think and want out of anything because you do not know me better than me. I know me better than you. So please just stop. It's rude and annoying and just stop.
2. Ok, I will respond to this point that I have already responded to... No. That's not true. When I say "I don't agree, here's how I saw it," my intention is not to get you to agree with me. My point is to tell you how I saw it. If the point is to get our opinions out there, the response would be either of those two options. This second way of getting information out there allows for this type of conversation from your TOTALLY MADE UP EXAMPLE (thanks for the condescending all caps btw... totally appreciated):

"I hate Dawn she came stomping into that room, she's always bitchy or moaning in season 5."
"I don't think she was bitchy. I think she was helping Xander (I don't use Joss's commentary the way you used it here often so I won't use it in my example) __evidence__."
"She wasn't helping Xander __evidence__."
"That's interesting you see it that way" AND begin discussion into WHY we see things the way we do.

See, cause you have to get what you see out to then have the conversation of why. Which is the interesting part to me. If you'll note, almost every conversation I have on this board always ends up coming to "why." Because "why" is the interesting part.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Okay since this thread has become hostile, which wasn't the intent of the original post, I am closing this. If people can learn to act like adults, then feel free to open a new thread.