Why women sustain more serious injuries than men in car crashes

. She has learned to live with a tight belt, so it is not impossible - you just have to pay attention to what matters.

Or we could change the design of seatbelts so women don't have to learn to live with discomfort when doing something quite dangerous. Crazy idea I know. But if humans invented the car, then designing a seatbelt that it is more effective for more body shapes should not beyond our combined wit.

One thing I have seen women do is deliberately leave a seatbelt loose because it adds creases to their clothes. If you defeat the safety mechanisms, don't be surprised if you get a worse outcome than extra creases.

and that's just sexist twaddle.

Data shows women sustain more serious injuries in car accidents - that is what this thread started about. That appears to be a hard and provable fact. They are not sustaining serious injuries because the pretty little dears didn't want to crease their clothes.

Instead of finding excuses as to why sub optimum car performance is women's fault, or cavalierly deciding that women can just learn to live with a bit of tightness because other things matter more (and ignoring the data that says a bit of tightness is not even the half of it) - we could just say 'huh - women get injured more often, I wonder if the auto industry could work on something to improve that?' Because maybe if that was people's response, they would work on it, regulations would change and women's lives would be saved. As long as people make excuses though, or insist it doesn't effect the women they know, then there's no need to change the way the industry has always done things just for the safety or comfort of women is there? We can save money that way.
 
Priceless
Priceless
Craido Perez is amazing, I've read a couple of her books and am signed up to her newsletter
 
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
It's just we got that one rule now about posting videos in place of conversations. Didn't want to see you get scolded like I was.
gwenogjones
gwenogjones
I know this is missing the point - but Caroline is a lot younger than I thought She's amazing ❤❤❤
Yes, we do ask that you take the trouble to write your comments, or summarize a video you post, for ease of discussion.

Edit: after reading through, I have never in my life felt discomfort wearing a seatbelt or heard complaints about it from others, I’m pretty average in height though, out of curiosity where would the discomfort or the tightness be? Over the chest or the hips?

Here you are taught not to wear your parka in the car (unless necessary) to provide a better fit for the belt against your body (that’s not only for women though), and it does make a huge difference.
 
Last edited:
Re that video - all the problems with being in the driving seat that cause women to get injured and they still only check the 'female' dummy in the passenger seat 😱 Because of course the little woman isn't going to be driving. The sexism is endemic and people need to stop making excuses for the way things are when it is causing demonstrable injury and even death.

And having listened to that bit on whiplash and how headrests make it worse for women @nightshade - maybe you're blaming yourself for injury that wasn't your fault.
 
And having listened to that bit on whiplash and how headrests make it worse for women @nightshade - maybe you're blaming yourself for injury that wasn't your fault.
The headrests are horrible! I know why they are designed that way but I don't know why they are designed that way.

@nightshade didn't have a headrest. She took it off. Which could be why she was injured.
 
@nightshade didn't have a headrest. She took it off. Which could be why she was injured.

The video says the headrests make things safer for men but more dangerous for women, specifically in regards to whiplash. Hence why - once nightshade took off her headrest - she may have actually been in a better and safer position.
 
Ok, this is in summary, but I would encourage everyone to read Caroline Craido Perez's books and watch her videos 😊
Men are more likely to be involved in car crashes, so they dominate the stats.

But when a woman is involved in a crash, she's 47% more likely to be injured than a man in the same crash (if everything else is equal) and 71% more likely to be moderately injured, she's also 17% more likely to die.

This is because for decades the only crash dummies that were used were based on the 50th percentile male, so designed all wrong for women . . .

Women tend to sit further forward, to see over the steering wheel and reach the pedals. so women are out of the 'standard seating position' - standard for the average male, so at higher risk in a frontal collision.

Seatbelts have not been designed for women, so we tend to wear them 'incorectly'.

The seat backs are 'too firm', they have been designed to accommodate the height and weight of a bigger (male) body, which means in a crash, the women is thrown further forward (she's already sitting further forward and not wearing the seatbelt 'correctly')

Women at higher risk in rear end crashes, as women have less muscle on our necks and torso, which makes us more vulnerable to whiplash. so we are 3 times more likely to suffer whiplash than men - this is partly also to do with the headrests, which have been designed for men but actually make is worse for women.

Pregnant crash test dummies are still not mandatorily used, even though car crashes are the number one reason for fetal death by trauma, we still haven't developed a seat belt that works for pregnant women.

The EU introduced a female dummy in 2015, which is just a scaled down male dummy (to the size of a 12 year old girl for some reason) This dummy is only used in 1 of the 5 regulatory tests, and only in the passenger seat.

Craido Perez wants ALL DATA to be used when designing cars, not just the data based on males.

Edit - As for the seatbelt question, yes I often struggle as to where to put it - under or over the boobs, and I have been known to take my arm out of it altogether🙁
 
gwenogjones
gwenogjones
But let's make sure we add in that data about women not wanting their clothes creased, right? 😉
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
Awesome thank you!
Edit - As for the seatbelt question, yes I often struggle as to where to put it - under or over the boobs, and I have been known to take my arm out of it altogether🙁

Really? Thank you, never heard of that before and am now trying to think how I put on a seatbelt, between I guess. Taking the arm out does sound quite unsafe, sorry about that level of discomfort.
 
nightshade
nightshade
Yep, I think between as well
Priceless
Priceless
I am only 5'2" and sometime the belt cuts my neck, it's so high
Yeah, across the body and between the breasts. Why wouldn’t that be possible? I have a bony ribcage, maybe that helps
It just seems odd. Doesn't the belt come down at an angle? It just cant picture it working in my head.
 
It just seems odd. Doesn't the belt come down at an angle? It just cant picture it working in my head.

Of course not, it lies flat. You’d risk getting fined here for wearing it at an angle I think. Guess I’ll have to take a picture at some point, lol.

Either way, good stuff to think about. I always find it hard to adjust the back of the driver’s seat to my liking.
 
Of course not, it lies flat. You’d risk getting fined here for wearing it at an angle I think. Guess I’ll have to take a picture at some point, lol.
Maybe it's my mental image thinking you meant straight down and in between. Perpendicular like.
 
Some of her findings in that video were completely false.
A woman sits closer to the wheel when drivings yet she travels further forward in the car in an accident, how stupid.
Have a look at rally cars that have female co-drivers, the seat belts are just right for them.

The real reason is (and this is a tee hee moment) that women die more often than men is that male drivers steer to the side a bit so that the woman takes the brunt of the accident.
 
I'm 5'11 and have the seat back as far as it can go and can still reach the pedals just fine. I also wear my coat in the car (because I don't like being cold) and have no issue with the seatbelt.

Maybe the issue isn't women specifically but short people (who just happen to be predominately women)? Cars aren't sexist, they just don't cater as well to short people. How do male dwarves compare in the findings for who gets injured the most in car crashes?
 
Maybe the issue isn't women specifically but short people (who just happen to be predominately women)? Cars aren't sexist, they just don't cater as well to short people.

Well, see, this is the thing. You refuse to make it about sexism and insist it is height. But, when safety regulations were invented, the people doing it (and I think we can probably take a good stab at which sex they were) chose to use a crash test dummy that was in the 50th percentile for men. Not for humans. For men. There is something that made their brains think 'well if it's OK for men it's OK - end of tests.' There was something in their brains that disregarded the possibility that things might be different for women and stopped them even checking.

Anything that is developed with the height of the average man and not the average human in mind is disproportionately negatively affecting women ... and a word for something that disproportionately affects women? Sexism.

It's not malicious. Nobody set out to make a car that injures more women then men - that's true enough. It is the fact that they simply didn't think to check for safety of women and that therefore women are disproportionately harmed (despite being demonstrably safer drivers) where the sexism is. It is insidious and invisible (hence the title of the book). They're not setting out to discriminate, they just do. Because man is default is so ingrained they cannot see it is discrimination.

And of course, as the video points out, it's not just the height thing. It's a neck muscle thing - which is a physiological difference between the two sexes and harms women but not men no matter what the height. Their attempts to create a safer head rest meant they created one that was safer for men and more dangerous for women ... the safety tests let it through regulations. It's a mass and weight thing - the firmness of the seat is designed to support the bulk of an average male - but is too firm for the smaller bulk of an average female and so in a crash throws her further forward. And it's a boob thing - seat belts are not designed for humans with boobs. So women have to wear them 'improperly' - which makes them less safe. And that's before they get pregnant.

Cars are not maliciously sexist. But anything that disproportionately harms women is what sexism is. And an industry using an average male to safety check and not also putting an average female through the exact same paces is clearly treating the sexes differently. And that's what sexism is.

Look at it this way - why do cars not cater as well to 'shorter people'. Is that just the way it is - God ordained, how nature intended? Cars are for the tall. Or is that a man made design flaw that could be rectified? And if the latter - why aren't they rectifying it?
People keep like acting like 'these are the problems and for anybody who suffers them they need to suck it up because this is how it is, there;s nothing can be done, this design is right - and no, there is no discernible pattern as to who is having the problems.'
Except that the data shows there is a discernible pattern, and why on earth do we just accept something is the way it is when it isn't working, if we could change it? Unless - we secretly don't think the people who need the changes are worth the time, expense and innovation it would take to change. Unless we think the people it does work for are the ones who matter and everyone else just needs to fit themselves in around them.

You know ... sexism.
 
Last edited:
I'd say women are facing bigger problems right now than cars.

fortunately women are excellent multi taskers 😉 They can worry about the safety of cars and the bigger problems facing them all at the same time. Sexism is a spectrum you see. If you ignore the little stuff (though arguably 17% more likely to die isn't 'little') the big stuff gets harder to fight. But if you win some small battles - the tide can start to turn your way.
 
I don't think sexism is the issue. I know plenty of women who have average male or greater mass who need the level of protection designed for a male. It comes down to short versus tall in many cases.

On my Miata, the seatbelt plugs into a receptacle mounted on the seat itself and the seat can be adjusted back and forth, so the main question answered by the test is whether the impact with a large seated mass would cause the seat track to be dislodged or damaged. There is no advantage to performing the test again with a smaller mass - if it holds for the larger mass, it will hold for the smaller mass because the larger mass is the worst-case condition.

The test of whether any component of the car intrudes on the occupant does not depend that much on the occupant other than the effects will be worse with a larger occupant. In this area, maybe the larger hip dimensions of a female could be accommodated but nothing in the data suggests that any disproportionate injuries are in the hip area or are caused by deformation of the car in the region of the hips.

A number of cars (like my Subaru) have independent seat adjustments for fore-and-aft location and height. Maserati had a fore-and-aft adjustment for the pedals with the seat locked in position. Maybe this is the answer you would like although that means you need flexible brake and clutch lines and an electric or cable-operated throttle. Many cars also have a fore-and-aft adjustment for steering wheel position - even the 1968 Triumph Spitfire that was my first car had that.

As for women keeping seatbelts loose because they are concerned about wrinkling their clothes, I mentioned it because I have seen it. This is not sexist, this is what I have seen and I am justified in ignoring someone who tells me I have not seen it.

In the Subaru, there is a sliding panel where the upper seatbelt mount is attached. You can rotate the mount and move it to a different height but not many people do this because it really isn't obvious unless you read the manual. Think of plucking a guitar string - if you pick the midpoint between the bridge and the fret you are on, the string has the least stiffness (and the least even order harmonics) whereas if you pluck at the bridge, it is much stiffer. By the same token, you should adjust the shoulder belt so the ring the belt goes through is level with the shoulder. Seatbelts lengthen during a crash - one standard for auto racing is that if you can reach something with your hand in the seated position, you will hit it during a crash.

Headrests might be a good place to use memory foam so the head will not be launched forward after it compresses rearward. But this offers no protection in multi-car collisions where you can get hit several times.
 
Back
Top Bottom