Will you watch the HBO series about the American Civil War?

Robb Stark

King in the North
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It seems to be in the same mold as Band of Brothers and The Pacific, but eight episodes instead of ten. It's called "To Appomattox", and stars Rob Lowe as U.S. Grant (which I'm having a hard time picturing, even though I like Lowe). Grant is one of my absolute all time favorite historical figures and I find the history of the Civil War really fascinating so I'm really excited for this.

It'll be interesting to see how it's portrayed, the perspectives that are featured. It follows Grant, so it will be primarily from the Union side of things I would imagine, but how the South is portrayed should be interesting. I'm in a Civil War class at ASU right now and most seem to view Robert E. Lee as a hero, but Jefferson Davis as a traitor and a terrorist. It's an interesting dichotomy to say the least.

What do you guys think? As a point of interest, do we have any people from the old Confederate states on BB? How are things perceived where you are from?
 
Kean
Kean
If you tell me History is your major in college than yes, we probably are. :p
What do you guys think? As a point of interest, do we have any people from the old Confederate states on BB? How are things perceived where you are from?

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] to the Bronze, I repeat, White Avenger to the Bronze.


I will absolutely be watching this, for several reasons: 1) I'm a history nut and I love these kinds of productions 2) Anything in a similar light to Band of Brothers and The Pacific and I will be there with bells on, and 3) Rob Lowe.
 
R
Robb Stark
Lol, are we soulmates?
As someone who loved "Band of Brothers" and is a big 'ol history nerd its definitely on my watch list! I could very well hate it, as some historical fiction drives me up the wall, but I will always give a show a shot. The Civil War is a really unique time period in American History and I'd love to see it get a "Band of Brothers" type series. (I also took a Civil War class in college and enjoyed it, despite being a more modern history gal). The show sounds like its from a Northern perspective, but I'm sure we will see SOME sympathetic southern portrayals.

Rob Lowe is an...interesting choice. Apparently Michael C. Hall was originally slotted for the role, but filming conflicted with "Dexter". He probably would've been a better choice. Grant is such a cool historical figure, so I hope that Lowe can pull it off.

I grew up in the Georgia, but in the Atlanta suburbs, so not exactly filled with confederate nut jobs. When I learned about the Civil War growing up, I think we were given a fair portrayal of it. No "War of Northern Aggression" type stuff. You respect the people who fought and died for both sides, but you don't necessarily respect the choice the southern states made to secede. I mean, sometimes I joke with my friends that "the south will rise again!" but its just because I'm a lone southerner up here in the midwest, haha. 😛
 
R
Robb Stark
[No message]
[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] to the Bronze, I repeat, White Avenger to the Bronze.


I will absolutely be watching this, for several reasons: 1) I'm a history nut and I love these kinds of productions 2) Anything in a similar light to Band of Brothers and The Pacific and I will be there with bells on, and 3) Rob Lowe.

Hey, Sledge in the final episode of The Pacific? Hunting with his Dad? I tear up in that scene ever single time. It always gets me.
 
Hey, Sledge in the final episode of The Pacific? Hunting with his Dad? I tear up in that scene ever single time. It always gets me.

Yes! The second time I watched the show I found it very sobering to watch Sledge at the beginning, knowing how much it all changes for him.

What really gets me in the Concentration Camp episode of Band of Brothers. If I ever end up teaching history, that will be one of the first things on my syllabus.
 
Buffy Summers
Buffy Summers
OMG when they make them go back in! Tears!
R
Robb Stark
Ah, major in Criminal Justice, but I minor in History!
What really gets me in the Concentration Camp episode of Band of Brothers. If I ever end up teaching history, that will be one of the first things on my syllabus.

I took a History of the Holocaust class in college (really brilliant professor who treated the subject matter with a lot of poise. One time, two girls weren't paying attention in class and were giggling at something on the computer. He kicked them out on the spot, saying "nothing we are discussing is funny, get out"). My prof disliked a lot of Holocaust concentration camp portrayals because he found them too tame and not accurate to just how horrible it was in one. He gave only a few examples of what he thought came close, and the "Band of Brothers" one was one of them.

That episode was hard to watch.
 
I've never seen Band of Brothers or The Pacific but they are on my list. But I love me a HBO show, so will probably watch this.

I love history, but my preferred time period is ancient greek/roman
 
Kean
Kean
Band of Brothers and The Pacific are perfect binge watch series. You'll love em when you get to them.
I took a History of the Holocaust class in college (really brilliant professor who treated the subject matter with a lot of poise. One time, two girls weren't paying attention in class and were giggling at something on the computer. He kicked them out on the spot, saying "nothing we are discussing is funny, get out"). My prof disliked a lot of Holocaust concentration camp portrayals because he found them too tame and not accurate to just how horrible it was in one. He gave only a few examples of what he thought came close, and the "Band of Brothers" one was one of them.

That episode was hard to watch.

Your professor sounds amazing. Band of Brothers is definitely the closest I have seen from a show/film in terms of depiction of what the concentration camps were really like, but even still, they hold back.

It's incredibly hard to watch. When I come to it in a rewatch I have to sort of mentally prepare myself for it.
 
[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] to the Bronze, I repeat, White Avenger to the Bronze.

So, hyeah I am, Yankees and Yankee corroborators. Wha' chew want from this ol' Southern boy? Sorry I got to the jawin' party late, I was taking Lady Avenger to the doctor.

To begin with, seriously, I seldom watch movies about the War Of Northern Aggression, because they usually do the same thing that all stories about that war, or any war, for that matter, do. They tell the story strictly from the viewpoint of the victors, never bothering to show what Paul Harvey used to refer to as "the rest of the story," even when Southerners are portrayed. My grandmother's parents lived through that time, and the Reconstruction Period that followed, and their stories were in almost total contradiction to what the history books tell. And, no, I don't believe that their stories weren't just as slanted and biased as the Northerners' version, but even if the truth does lie somewhere in the middle, there has never been any real effort to try and find that truth, at least not in the history books that I have read.

Just be aware of this, if this discussion continues, If I am involved, I will make every effort to tell my family's story, from their point of view, as well as the Southern view of what that war was about. I am not a white supremacist, though I have been mistaken as one because of my usename, but slavery is a part of that time, and a subject that has to be addressed. All that I ask is, whether or not you agree with what I say, it is the story as I heard it. I will not lie, and I will try my best not to become immersed in rhetoric to the point that I completely lose track of the subject at hand.

So, let's get down to it, anybody wants to get into it.
 
To be honest I probably won't unless I see it in passing. Also you already know how its gunna end lol. XD
 
[MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION],

Richard Winters is my one of my all time favorite characters. I thought everything about him was perfect.

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION],

I'm fully prepared to discuss the topic, and I've very glad you said what you did. I'm very, very much on the Union side of things, but I promise, if we talk about it, that I will listen to and respect what you say. You and I have been around the horn on some big debate topics before, and I consider you a friend, so I'm perfectly sure we can keep it...uh...civil.

I'm not from the South so I didn't grow up with a lens through the prism of Southern understanding. Slavery was very much a part of the time periods, yes, and there were aspects of Reconstruction which were horribly, unbelievably botched (Andrew Johnson is, in my view as someone who virtually worships the Presidency, the worst President in American history), but I still very staunchly believe the Confederacy was wrong, and that Jefferson Davis was a traitor.

Here was a man who was educated on American dollars as West Point, who served as the Secretary of War, and who betrayed his country because he wanted a throne (I mean that proverbially). I understand Lee's perspective, to an extent, but Davis angers me.

And for slavery, U.S. Grant was raised right in the height of American slavery. He inherited a slave, and even though his family was starving, even though he was destitute and was beyond desperate to find a job, he filed emancipation papers for his slave. At a time when able-bodied, male slaves sold for north of $1000, a life-altering sum for Grant and his family, Grant turned it down, because it was the right thing to do. If he can do it, then "culture", to me, is not a valid excuse for Southern actions.

Another thing that bothers me is the revisionist history in some parts of the country which have tried to shift the belief that the Civil War was about slavery, to say that it wasn't. It was. After preservation of the Union, that was Lincoln's ultimate objective.

Okay my friend, let's get it 🙂
 
[MENTION=7585]

I'm not from the South so I didn't grow up with a lens through the prism of Southern understanding. Slavery was very much a part of the time periods, yes, and there were aspects of Reconstruction which were horribly, unbelievably botched (Andrew Johnson is, in my view as someone who virtually worships the Presidency, the worst President in American history), but I still very staunchly believe the Confederacy was wrong, and that Jefferson Davis was a traitor.

Here was a man who was educated on American dollars as West Point, who served as the Secretary of War, and who betrayed his country because he wanted a throne (I mean that proverbially). I understand Lee's perspective, to an extent, but Davis angers me.

And for slavery, U.S. Grant was raised right in the height of American slavery. He inherited a slave, and even though his family was starving, even though he was destitute and was beyond desperate to find a job, he filed emancipation papers for his slave. At a time when able-bodied, male slaves sold for north of $1000, a life-altering sum for Grant and his family, Grant turned it down, because it was the right thing to do. If he can do it, then "culture", to me, is not a valid excuse for Southern actions.

Another thing that bothers me is the revisionist history in some parts of the country which have tried to shift the belief that the Civil War was about slavery, to say that it wasn't. It was. After preservation of the Union, that was Lincoln's ultimate objective.

Okay my friend, let's get it 🙂

Okay, to begin with, neither Jefferson Davis nor Robert E Lee, both educated at West Point, were in any way traitors. Lee, when asked to command the Union army by President Lincoln replied, "Regrettably, sir, I am a Virginian first, and an American second. These were men who believed themselves to hold their first loyalty to their home state, not the United States as a whole.

Something that a lot of people tend to forget, and the history books totally ignore, is that up until the time of the Secession, the United States were exactly that. A group of united, but sovereign, states. It was by their free will that they joined together to form a common nation, and it was understood that it was the common right of each state to withdraw from that union whenever their citizens decided to do so, exactly the same as partners in a business can break up their partnership at will. The Southern states were perfectly within their rights, they believed, in leaving the United States and forming the Confederacy an an independent nation.

And as for the issue of slavery (here's one of those things that I warned you about. I am NOT defending slavery, simply explaining the events of the time) yes, slavery was the rallying point for the Union Army and its validation for invading the Confederate States Of America. However, the issue of slavery as it existed at that time was never properly, or even legally or in an unbiased fashion, addressed by Lincoln's famous Emancipation Proclamation. To begin with, the E P was written AFTER the Southern states had left the Union, therefore it had no legal validity. Secondly, it DID NOT abolish the institute of slavery in general. It applied only to the states comprising the Confederacy. That would be the same thing as Obama today signing a law that applied only to Canada or Mexico. The law would be invalid because he has no authority there. Lincoln had no authority over the CSA.

Slaves living in what was left of the United States, and, yes, there were a relatively small quantity of legally owned slaves in the North, bought in the South and brought there by their owners or their agents, usually to serve as house staff. Slaves did not, contrary to what is common belief today, immediately become free upon crossing the Mason Dixon Line. If they had escaped their Southern owners, they couldn't be extradited, but if their masters brought them there, and retained control of them, they were still the property of the owners and subject to their control.

Slavery was the rallying point, and a major issue in the cause of the Civil War, but it was certainly not the only issue. As I said, there was the issue of whether or not individual states could leave the Union. Obviously, if that were allowed to stand, the United States as a nation was doomed. Also, there was economics. The Northern industrialists wanted to control the cost of Southern Cotton. In order to do that, they used their influence in the Federal government to charge high taxes on any perspective foreign competition, making themselves the only available market available to Southern cotton growers. If the South were no longer subject to United States laws, the Northerners lost control of the cotton market, since, without the export taxes to contend with, French and English buyers were more than willing to buy all of the cotton the South could produce.

Slavery is an abomination. No man, or woman, should ever be the property of another. The abolition of slavery was certainly a major factor in the Civil War, but it was not the only factor, nor, if it weren't for the influence of the Northern big businessmen, would it have been a factor that most Northerners cared enough about, sadly, to fight the kind of war that resulted.

That's what started the war, and probably enough of a beginning for any sort of discussion.

Hopefully, if this continues, those who do watch the HBO series will be a bit more informed about what they are seeing and what it represents.
 
Before I keep going, I want it fully expressed on my part that I know completely you aren't supporting slavery at all. I know that it's a major part of the discussion and will inevitably crop up. That's perfectly fine. Every time period has its own context which can be difficult for contemporary citizens to comprehend with things as we know them today. So you don't have to feel on the defensive about it, I fully get it.

Okay, to begin with, neither Jefferson Davis nor Robert E Lee, both educated at West Point, were in any way traitors. Lee, when asked to command the Union army by President Lincoln replied, "Regrettably, sir, I am a Virginian first, and an American second. These were men who believed themselves to hold their first loyalty to their home state, not the United States as a whole.

The difference between Davis and Lee for me is that Davis served in high public office for the United States. He was President Pierce's Secretary of War, he was a U.S. Senator and what galls me most, he spoke out against secession in the Senate. He may very well have believed that the states had a right to leave the Union, but I find it more than a little murky that a man who served with unquestioned distinction in the Mexican War, who was a member of the President's cabinet, who went on record against secession, would assume the mantle of the Confederate Presidency. That leads me to believe (and I freely admit that I'm not near as well educated on Davis as I am on Grant, Lincoln or Lee), that even though he knew what he was doing was wrong, he did it anyway because it gave him the chance to be President. There's also the incredible amount of self-interest involved beyond that when you consider Davis was a huge plantation owner dependent upon slavery.

Lee meanwhile, oddly enough, I don't consider a traitor. I don't agree with much of anything he did, but he wasn't a cabinet minister. He didn't leave the Union out of self-interest (as you said, he declined command of Union forces). I believe he was wrong, but he clearly believed that what he did was right. He saw himself as a Virginian first, and while I personally can't see that perspective (I can't ever see myself being loyal to British Columbia over Canada, or Arizona/California over the U.S.), I know that HE saw it that way.

Something that a lot of people tend to forget, and the history books totally ignore, is that up until the time of the Secession, the United States were exactly that. A group of united, but sovereign, states. It was by their free will that they joined together to form a common nation, and it was understood that it was the common right of each state to withdraw from that union whenever their citizens decided to do so, exactly the same as partners in a business can break up their partnership at will. The Southern states were perfectly within their rights, they believed, in leaving the United States and forming the Confederacy an an independent nation.

I think this is the heart of the issue, and which will be the primary point of contention.

President Johnson was a very bad man, but he made one point I agreed with. He took the position that the South had never left the Union, and that view wasn't without merit, based on an upcoming Supreme Court precedent. In Texas vs. White (1869), Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase ruled secession was illegal, deeming that the Constitution created an "indestructible Union, composed of indestructible states" (Grant, Smith, P. 422). The Court also ruled that Texas during the Civil War was not lawfully governed, and that under Article 4, Section 4 of the Constitution Congress had legal power to establish a lawful state government. Of course, Johnson didn't give a damn about that, he wanted the Southern states immediately readmitted to Congress to shore up votes for his failing Presidency. He twisted a Supreme Court verdict to allow widespread adoption of the Black Codes in the South to accentuate that (Johnson was a notorious racist aside from being a political scumbag). It's a tragedy, really, because the goals of Reconstruction were set back almost a century due to Johnson's actions.

Of course, this is all meaningless if the Confederacy wins the war. Legal or not, force wins wars, not papers. However, the Supreme Court deemed the Confederacy illegal, with no right to leave the Union, and while the case I'm sure would have been made that the Confederate states didn't recognize the authority of an American court, it is what it is.

I also wanted to add, I thought Grant and Lincoln were absolutely correct in how they wanted to handle the readmission of the South into the Union. Punishment and vindictiveness were not the way to go, even in the shadow of the horror of war. Peace and forgiveness were the right avenues to follow, and (in my humble opinion), Grant's finest hour was when he stood eye-to-eye with President Johnson when Johnson made clear his intentions to ignore Grant and Lee's treaty at Appomattox, and to have Lee tried for treason. Without Grant, Lee would have been executed, and that would have ignited already simmering Southern rage and resentment to catastrophic levels.


And as for the issue of slavery (here's one of those things that I warned you about. I am NOT defending slavery, simply explaining the events of the time) yes, slavery was the rallying point for the Union Army and its validation for invading the Confederate States Of America. However, the issue of slavery as it existed at that time was never properly, or even legally or in an unbiased fashion, addressed by Lincoln's famous Emancipation Proclamation. To begin with, the E P was written AFTER the Southern states had left the Union, therefore it had no legal validity. Secondly, it DID NOT abolish the institute of slavery in general. It applied only to the states comprising the Confederacy. That would be the same thing as Obama today signing a law that applied only to Canada or Mexico. The law would be invalid because he has no authority there. Lincoln had no authority over the CSA.

Well, it wouldn't be quite the same, as the Union viewed the Confederacy not as an independent nation they were invading, but as a group of rebels. Canada and Mexico are clearly separate from the United States. I can try to form my own country from within the U.S. if I want to, but I have no legal right to do so.

And I'm not so naive to think that the issue of slavery was cut-and-dried. I know it wasn't. There was the obvious benefit of emancipation in that suddenly the Union was flooded with much-needed new recruits to resew the war effort. However, the Reconstruction actions of many defeated Southern states, the raw terrorism towards the freedmen, particularly in Louisiana and Tennessee, reinforced the importance of the North winning the war from a standpoint beyond "Union".

-----------

I hope I haven't rambled on too much. I love discussing history and it's always great to debate with someone new, especially when they possess a completely different perspective than mine. I hope others wade in as well, on either side of the issue. These things are always more fun with more people!
 
Just two short comments for now, since we're about to go out for dinner.

Jefferson Davis opposed the Secession, but, like Lee, he felt that his first duty was to his state, not the federal government. He accepted Presidency of the C S A simply because he was the most experienced and best qualified man to fill that post. To him, that was a fulfillment of duty, not a betrayal.

And the Supreme Court ruling that you mentioned was delivered, not only after the Secession, but after the war itself was over. Actions taken before the fact would not be applicable. That ruling was to assure that such a thing would not be possible a second time.

And, as for the "unlawful government" in Texas, if that government was unlawful, then it might be argued that Texas should have reverted back to what it originally was. A sovereign nation, with its own President and its own currency, with no affiliation with the United States at all. (I know, that's taking the ruling back too far, but I just had to toss it in about Texas being the only state in the Union to ever hold the distinction of being a sovereign nation)

And now, I've gotta go eat. As Arnold says, "I'll be bahck."
 
SallySparrow,
I'm not disregarding the atrocities that happened at the concentration camps, but one good thing did come about because of them.
In getting the people who were just skin and bone back to a 'normal' weight; how that form of anorexia was cured by the American Army personnel.

Kean,
why did to give the message, 'white avenger to the Bronze'?
Had the message been, white avenger to the Back Stage Area of the Bronze you could have had the giggles thinking of white avenger trying to find the 'Back Stage Area' of the Bronze. tee hee
 
white avenger
white avenger
Obviously, the "back stage area" is right behind the "front stage area." My mama didn't raise no fools.
SallySparrow,
I'm not disregarding the atrocities that happened at the concentration camps, but one good thing did come about because of them.
In getting the people who were just skin and bone back to a 'normal' weight; how that form of anorexia was cured by the American Army personnel.

It's a sad thing to say, but true nonetheless. Most major medical advances are the direct result of treating the wounded in time of war.
 
ILLYRIAN
ILLYRIAN
Even though they had a way of stopping it in the 1940's some places are still trying to find out to stop it.
Just two short comments for now, since we're about to go out for dinner.

Jefferson Davis opposed the Secession, but, like Lee, he felt that his first duty was to his state, not the federal government. He accepted Presidency of the C S A simply because he was the most experienced and best qualified man to fill that post. To him, that was a fulfillment of duty, not a betrayal.

And the Supreme Court ruling that you mentioned was delivered, not only after the Secession, but after the war itself was over. Actions taken before the fact would not be applicable. That ruling was to assure that such a thing would not be possible a second time.

I'm about to read a book about Davis, focusing on the final years of the Civil War and Davis' ensuing escape and capture. It's written by a Southern author, so I'm interested at how the narrative will be framed.

Yeah, I know the ruling passed after the conclusion of the War. I was just mentioning it to establish a context about legality. It certainly wasn't intended as a home run point.

I was looking into the primary motivations of the Union during the Civil War, particularly regarding the importance of abolishing slavery. The following was an exchange between General Grant and the German Bismarck, who was a close friend of Grant's, after Grant left the White House and was traveling through Germany. It's a fantastic exchange that crystallizes the chief aspects of the Civil War.

"What always seemed so sad to me about your last great war was that you were fighting your own people. That is always so terrible in wars. So very hard."
"But it had to be done," Grant replied.
"Yes, you had to save the Union. Just as we had to save Germany."
"Not only to save the Union," said Grant, "but destroy slavery."
"I supposed, however, the Union was real sentiment, the dominant sentiment," said Bismarck.
"In the beginning, yes," Grant answered. "But as soon as slavery fired upon the flag it was felt, we all felt, even those who did not object to slaves, that slavery must be destroyed. We felt that it was a stain on the Union that men should be bought and sold like cattle."

"A great commander like Sherman or Sheridan even then might have orginized an army and put down the rebellion in six months or a year, or at the farthest, two years. But that would have saved slavery, perhaps, and slavery meant the germs of a new rebellion. There had to be an end of slavery. Then we were fighting an enemy with whom we could not make a peace. We had to destroy him. No convetion, no treaty, was possible --- only destruction."

(Grant, Smith, P. 610)

I think that's a spectacular insight into the mindset of the Union high command, and the North in general, of the Civil War. Union and slavery were intermingled.
 
"A great commander like Sheridan"?

I do hope that you are aware that this "great commander" is responsible for the single most brutal attack on non combatants, including women and children, in the history of this nation. His famous March To The Sea, directly through my home state of Georgia was nothing short of a terrorist attack of monumental proportions. His men murdered, pillaged, robbed, and destroyed everything in their paths. What they wanted, they took, what they DIDN'T want, they destroyed. They seized all of the livestock and personal possessions of everyone in their path, leaving women, children, the aged and infirm, and even the former slaves, whose emancipation was the driving force of the Union, homeless, with no means of support, no food, not even homes to live in. Civilians, non combatants, were left to starve and die from lack of medical attention.

That's your "great commander."
 
Just as a point of clarification, do you mean Sherman, not Sheridan? During the March to the Sea Sheridan and his cavalry were engaged with Confederate General Early in the defense of Washington in the Shenandoah. Now, after Lee suffered large losses at Petersburg and Sherman captured Atlanta, Sheridan was ordered to hit Early, and all his chains of supply, hard. Grant instructed him to destroy every railroad and crop utilized by Early's forces, and to carry all stock and slaves they could find to prevent future planting. "If the War is to last another year we want the Shenandoah valley to remain a barren waste". It was my understanding that the campaign against Early in the Shenandoah was Sheridan's first solo command. Sherman was the one who marched to Savannah to link up with Grant against Lee before moving against Johnson in the Carolinas.

Now for the messy part. I know this will be controversial, and that in all likelihood you will not agree with me. Perfectly fine, but I'm going to try and explain how it looks for an outsider. I'm not from Georgia so I can't ever really understand the context of those who lived through Sherman's March, and how devastating it was. In fact, I've had the unquestionable privileged of coming from places which have never lost a war, and have never been sacked. I won't pretend that doesn't color my perspective. I started this reply and took a break to better formulate what I wanted to say, because the last thing I want is to come across as rude, disrespectful or offensive.

General Sherman, and by extension Grant and Lincoln as well, engaged in a state of total war. Total war is brutal and it's hard, but it wins, and it imparts, with terrible finality, the truth of war, the magnitude of it. If we're speaking strategically, Sherman's March to the Sea was a remarkably brilliant campaign. He cut himself off entirely from all lines of supply and communication (much as Grant had done at Vicksburg), and shattered the backbone of the Confederacy. The destruction he and his forces wrought is indisputable, but so is the fact that it helped win the war. The Confederate economy was largely broken after Sherman's march. Was it too much? Of course it was. Sherman himself said as much (amazingly, I found this quote on Wikipedia):

I am prepared to grant liberal terms to the inhabitants and garrison; but should I be forced to resort to assault, or the slower and surer process of starvation, I shall then feel justified in resorting to the harshest measures, and shall make little effort to restrain my army"”burning to avenge the national wrong which they attach to Savannah and other large cities which have been so prominent in dragging our country into civil war.

"” William T. Sherman , Message to William J. Hardee, December 17, 1864, recorded in his memoirs

That about says it all. It's not nice and it's not pretty. It should be noted that Sherman wasn't a total barbarian. He played a major role in the Vicksburg campaign and when he raced to beat Johnston to Jackson, Mississippi in May, 1863, he treated the town civilly. When Sherman and Johnston met in April of 1865 to stipulate the surrender of Johnston's army, Sherman was prepared to arrange terms for Jefferson Davis. The March to the Sea was a different matter. The War needed to end. Lincoln's reelection was anything but certain, and Northern enthusiasm for the war was starting to ebb. Sherman taking Atlanta in November secured a second term for Lincoln, but to have allowed the war to drag on for another eight months to a year would have been criminal.

President Eisenhower (my favorite President, as a point of interest) had a belief roughly a century later that if you go to war, you go to win. You use everything at your disposal to win. You go in fast and you go in hard. That's how wars are won, the vast majority of the time, and that's what Sherman did. That's what Truman did when he engaged nuclear weapons against Japan in 1945. And the the United States has opted not to do that, the results are clear. You get mired in quagmires like Vietnam. Don't mistake me. I'm not saying this is a "good" thing. I have a hard time even saying it's right. I'm trying to convey, I suppose, that if a nation feels strongly enough to go to war, then it should do everything in it's power to secure victory. War is too terrible to engage half-asked.

General Sherman was an outstanding commander, and it is no secret he and Grant were very close personally. His loyalty to Grant when President Johnson attempted his power plays to install Sherman as Secretary of War to replace Stanton is more than admirable. His leadership on the Mexican border following the Civil War played a large role in eliminating Napoleon III's French colonial presence.

Again, I'd like to strenuously emphasis that my interpretations are very possibly of limited capacity. As mentioned, I didn't grow up in the South. In the North, Sherman, Sheridan and especially Grant and Lincoln, are viewed as national heroes, the men who reunited the country. It's no shock to me that they are remembered differently in the lands they sacked. I would assume that to be the case of conquering generals throughout history.

Whew...another mammoth post. Sorry for the rambling WA. When I get going it's tough to stop me 😛

(Sidebar: I came back to this because I wanted to clarify. I don't believe for a second that the U.S. should have used atomic weapons against Vietnam, if my previous wording came across that way. I was speaking more of President Johnson's strange reluctance to launch a full-scale offensive against Hanoi. Nuclear weapons would have been an even greater disaster)
 
Eisenhower's statement about going to win applied to combatants, not women and children. It was about breaking the back of the military establishment and throwing the enemy's government into chaos. That is what is referred to as conventional warfare. The reason that conventional warfare wouldn't work in a war like Viet Nam is for the simple reason that there was no established military force to target, or even a recognizable chain of command. That wasn't the situation in Civil War Georgia. By the time that Sherman (not Sheridan. Thanks) began his march, the South was already barely holding on by teeth and toenails. There were almost no strategic supplies left, Northern blockades kept French and English supply ships away. The civilian population was one step away from starvation. Sherman waged war against a bunch of basically unarmed civilians who were defenseless against him.

No journal entries or personal memoir quotes can ever excuse something like that.
 
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