Willow Crying

Willow definitely has issues with people taking her friends away from her. In s4 "The I in Team" she gets jealous of all the time Buffy spends with Riley and the Initiative. She wasn't jealous of Anya but in "Triangle" she expresses why she doesn't like her.

If Willow had slept with Oz in 'Ameds', I think Xander would be somewhat hurt but not jealous. He would be the one that felt left out.

I look at the fact that Cordelia didn't sleep with him as her way of showing that he means more to her than the other guys she hooks up with. I think that in her own way she really loved him and that's why it hurts so much at the end of 'Lover's Walk'.
 
I'm beginning to think I see things differently to most folk here.
I don't see Cordy as the 'I'm going to have sex with every guy I can' type of girl. She is a bit free thinking but so what?
I see her as the top girl, the girl all guys want to date and have sex with and usually do.
So Xander and her not having sex merely indicates what she is really like. With Xander she could be what she is really like. So when Xander was caught with Willow, it meant a lot to her.

After Willow found out about Xander and Faith, Willow's crying in the bathroom. It shows her to be the deeply emotional person she is.
 
Still a Scoobie
Still a Scoobie
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I don't see Cordy as the 'I'm going to have sex with every guy I can' type of girl.

No one's saying that. We're not saying that Cordelia's a great big ho who sleeps around.

What we ARE saying is that, before she started dating Xander, Cordelia made certain remarks that made some fans think that she wasn't a virgin. It might have only been one guy, it might have been two, it might have been the whole damn football team, we just don't know.

And at least three people in this thread have said that up until 'The Zeppo', they were under the impression that Cordelia and Xander would have slept together. That's pretty much all we're saying.
 
I remember being a bit confused the first time I watched that scene, thinking it was about Xander and she wasn't over him. A jealousy thing.
I think it was a jealousy thing, but it was Faith she was feeling jealous of.
Faith is kind of the anti-Willow. Her opposite.
Faith is powerful (slayer), sexy, people are flocking to her (Buffy, Xander, boys in general...) and she feels she can't compete because they are SO different. Willow isn't powerful (yet), she cute & sweet (not sexy), and she isn't an attention seeker.
Buffy is hanging out with Faith more. Giles and Wesley are (trying) to do the Watcher thing with her. Then the former love of her life, and other best friend, loses his virginity to her.
I think it was a build up of all those things. Faith had made Willow feel really insecure and she just broke over it.

I'm really surprised how friendly she is towards Faith in season 7.
 
I love this scene. Willow has many reasons to be upset. Yes, she got back together with Oz. However, that doesn't change the fact that she still has lingering feelings for Xander. Willow loved Xander her whole life. She planned hypothetical weddings with him as the groom.
or
Second, it's not just about jealousy. Xander said in Becoming that he and Willow would call each other every day and talked about that they did all day. Willow thought she knew Xander and she thought that he was growing up at the same time as her. However, apparently not. Xander had this huge life event and didn't tell her until he made a public declaration at the Save Faith meeting. Oh, btw the meeting was about how Faith killed a man and tried to frame Buffy and isn't taking responsibility and it came out that Faith treats her stallions like they mean nothing- so Willow also has the trouble of worrying that Xander lost his virginity to a possibly destructive and violent girl who doesn't even care about Xander.

"Selfish" shouldn't even be a part of this conversation. Yes, Willow has deep emotions- some of which are healthy and some of which are unhealthy and jealous. However, Willow made a very *unselfish* choice to bury her pain as best as she can in the Scooby meeting and then have a good cry all by herself where she won't trouble others with her feelings. Willow wasn't troubling anyone or being rude or being selfish- she was just feeling her full spectrum of emotions. Now, if only someone developed spells to forcibly limit Willow's emotion spectrum than she could turn herself into the kind of gal that everyone would love. Hey! What if instead of crying, she willed that her heart would be healed! Everyday fandom's reactions to Willow having emotions makes her tragic choices to control those emotions with magic make tons of sense. There really isn't room in this world for the Willows of the world to experience pain (even privately) without fans yelling at her for...feeling pain.

I also admire Willow for saying that she thinks Faith maybe belongs behind bars but she is biased because she has issues with Faith taking her people. Right away, Willow proposed the rehabilitative method that Faith actually needed. As it turns out, Faith needed a time out in prison. Faith had committed prison-worthy acts and her attempted rape, attempted murder, and full on battery of Xander was beyond the pale and should and DID enrage his best friend Willow. However even with all of that, Willow freely disclosed all biases that she may have when she's proposing Faith's treatment. That's the way the world should work- people speak their mind but include their biases. However, as always, since Willow discloses her biases and flaws, fandom castigates her and falls all over themselves with adoring characters who never admit their biases and flaws ala Giles or Angel.

And Willow absolutely had reason to fear losing Buffy to Faith. It was insecurity- but it was based in logic. Buffy feared losing Willow as a friend when Willow stood her up in Dead Man's Party. Well, Buffy stood Willow up at their chemistry study session to hang with Faith. Buffy flat out told Willow that Willow doesn't get her since Willow is not a slayer. Buffy flat out revoked her invitation to Willow to come slay since Willow is not on a slayer- and their friendship is largely built on the slaying. If Willow can no longer routine patrol with Buffy, Willow misses out on a huge part of Buffy's life. Faith has a huge advantage to understanding Buffy and playing her world- especially if Buffy embraces that and shuts out her non-powered friends and Buffy was doing that. If Faith hadn't gone off the rails, I could see Buffy blowing off her non-powered friends more and trying to play in Faith's world for a longer period of time. It didn't seem like Buffy missed Willow like Willow missed Buffy.
 
Under Her Spell
Under Her Spell
FINALLY someone gets it!
At this point, Willow hadn't realised she was a lesbian yet, and she had had feelings for Xander before. Also, her and Faith had clashed multiple times before, and she probably felt threatened by the event.
 
I love this scene. Willow has many reasons to be upset. Yes, she got back together with Oz. However, that doesn't change the fact that she still has lingering feelings for Xander. Willow loved Xander her whole life. She planned hypothetical weddings with him as the groom.
or
Second, it's not just about jealousy. Xander said in Becoming that he and Willow would call each other every day and talked about that they did all day. Willow thought she knew Xander and she thought that he was growing up at the same time as her. However, apparently not. Xander had this huge life event and didn't tell her until he made a public declaration at the Save Faith meeting. Oh, btw the meeting was about how Faith killed a man and tried to frame Buffy and isn't taking responsibility and it came out that Faith treats her stallions like they mean nothing- so Willow also has the trouble of worrying that Xander lost his virginity to a possibly destructive and violent girl who doesn't even care about Xander.

"Selfish" shouldn't even be a part of this conversation. Yes, Willow has deep emotions- some of which are healthy and some of which are unhealthy and jealous. However, Willow made a very *unselfish* choice to bury her pain as best as she can in the Scooby meeting and then have a good cry all by herself where she won't trouble others with her feelings. Willow wasn't troubling anyone or being rude or being selfish- she was just feeling her full spectrum of emotions. Now, if only someone developed spells to forcibly limit Willow's emotion spectrum than she could turn herself into the kind of gal that everyone would love. Hey! What if instead of crying, she willed that her heart would be healed! Everyday fandom's reactions to Willow having emotions makes her tragic choices to control those emotions with magic make tons of sense. There really isn't room in this world for the Willows of the world to experience pain (even privately) without fans yelling at her for...feeling pain.

I also admire Willow for saying that she thinks Faith maybe belongs behind bars but she is biased because she has issues with Faith taking her people. Right away, Willow proposed the rehabilitative method that Faith actually needed. As it turns out, Faith needed a time out in prison. Faith had committed prison-worthy acts and her attempted rape, attempted murder, and full on battery of Xander was beyond the pale and should and DID enrage his best friend Willow. However even with all of that, Willow freely disclosed all biases that she may have when she's proposing Faith's treatment. That's the way the world should work- people speak their mind but include their biases. However, as always, since Willow discloses her biases and flaws, fandom castigates her and falls all over themselves with adoring characters who never admit their biases and flaws ala Giles or Angel.

And Willow absolutely had reason to fear losing Buffy to Faith. It was insecurity- but it was based in logic. Buffy feared losing Willow as a friend when Willow stood her up in Dead Man's Party. Well, Buffy stood Willow up at their chemistry study session to hang with Faith. Buffy flat out told Willow that Willow doesn't get her since Willow is not a slayer. Buffy flat out revoked her invitation to Willow to come slay since Willow is not on a slayer- and their friendship is largely built on the slaying. If Willow can no longer routine patrol with Buffy, Willow misses out on a huge part of Buffy's life. Faith has a huge advantage to understanding Buffy and playing her world- especially if Buffy embraces that and shuts out her non-powered friends and Buffy was doing that. If Faith hadn't gone off the rails, I could see Buffy blowing off her non-powered friends more and trying to play in Faith's world for a longer period of time. It didn't seem like Buffy missed Willow like Willow missed Buffy.

WOW. If even I think you're defending Willow too vehemently (as I kinda started to half way through reading that post) you know there is a serious problem. 😱


I've read most of this thread lamenting how harshly Willow is treated by some areas of the fandom so I broadly agree, but jeez...
 
WOW. If even I think you're defending Willow too vehemently (as I kinda started to half way through reading that post) you know there is a serious problem. 😱


I've read most of this thread lamenting how harshly Willow is treated by some areas of the fandom so I broadly agree, but jeez...

LOL, as with Willow, I feel what I feel even if it's intense! But seriously, some of my vehemence came from my Willow-love. However, most of it came from general life conviction that people should be able to privately feel the full spectrum of emotions, healthy and unhealthy, without being pilloried for it. It's one thing if one makes a choice to take their negative emotions out on undeserving others with their conduct. *That's* selfish. But private cries in the bathroom is a method by which us non-automaton human beings with feelings exorcise our pain so we can deal with it privately and then, go back to being a contributing member of society.
 
However, most of it came from general life conviction that people should be able to privately feel the full spectrum of emotions, healthy and unhealthy, without being pilloried for it.

I'm not trying to deny Willow her emotions - that's not what this thread was about.

I said I didn't understand it, and I still don't.

And yes, I do think it's selfish of her and just very, very out of place when it comes to where the characters are at that point in time. Willow was willing just a few episodes before this one to sleep with Oz, and Xander wasn't given a second thought. Now suddenly she's crying because - according to some people - she still loves Xander, still has feelings for him, still wanted him to be her first and/or is jealous/doesn't like Faith.

But then, it's gone just as suddenly as it happened. There's no mention of Willow having any feelings for Xander, she doesn't talk about the fact that Xander lost his virginity to someone else, she doesn't mention anything about deciding to move on. It's just dropped like it never happened.

That's where my problems stem.

I just have a problem with the so-called Willow/Xander 'romance' anyway. One minute, they can't keep their hands off each other, the next they act like nothing ever happened. I just don't like it at all, and I think it's very bad writing.
 
And yes, I do think it's selfish of her and just very, very out of place when it comes to where the characters are at that point in time. Willow was willing just a few episodes before this one to sleep with Oz, and Xander wasn't given a second thought. Now suddenly she's crying because - according to some people - she still loves Xander, still has feelings for him, still wanted him to be her first and/or is jealous/doesn't like Faith.

Willow was forcing herself to try to sleep with Oz to get him to forgive her. Oz could hear in her voice that she wasn't ready- through inexperience, confusion because she couldn't keep her hands off of Xander. When Willow and Oz got back together, Oz knew that Willow still had feelings for Xander.

Oz: Okay. The thing is... seeing you with Xander, it was... Well, I never felt that way before... when it wasn't a full moon... but I know you guys have a history.

Willow: But it's a history that's in the past. Well, I-I guess most history is in the past. But it's over.

Oz: Well, I don't know. I don't know that it... ever will be between you two.

But then, it's gone just as suddenly as it happened. There's no mention of Willow having any feelings for Xander, she doesn't talk about the fact that Xander lost his virginity to someone else, she doesn't mention anything about deciding to move on. It's just dropped like it never happened.

Right, because Willow WASN'T being selfish. There are a bunch of indicators that Willow still had lingering feelings for Xander- the I Love You in The Zeppo, Oz knowing that their relationship/feelings for on another will never be over, Willow crying in Consequences, Willow told Xander to not touch her even in friendship because she can't fall back on those bad habits- and that's just S3.

However, Willow knows that she chose to be with Oz because Oz isn't the guilty choice, because she loves Oz a little more at this point, because Willow can count on Oz in a way that she can't count on Xander. Willow knows she made her bed. So, she doesn't talk folks' head off about Xander's virginity or angst about it publicly. Instead, Willow made a choice to exorcise her emotions as quietly as possible and not rock the boat on existing relationships. Instead, Willow literally verbalized in The Wish that she was going to discipline herself in making everything about Oz and she literally verbalized in Amends that she was going to do whatever, including having sex before she wants to, to show Oz that he comes first. It's very unhealthy- but Willow made her love of Xander very clear and on the opposing side, her determination to discipline herself in putting Xander aside to commit to Oz. It's the typical Willow pendulum- big emotions/appetites for whatever she wants and strict discipline and big force of Will(ow) holding hands and slapping each other silly by turns. I adore her complexity.

I'm not trying to deny Willow her emotions - that's not what this thread was about.

I strongly disagree. Saying that Willow was selfish for feeling in private is the definition of denying and even more, condemning her for her emotions.

BTW, I think the S3 cheating storyline is very well-done from Willow's end. I'm totally with her emotionally at every step, even though I disagree with her actions from Homecoming through Lovers' Walk. It's weaker from Xander's end because it felt like more of an empty dalliance on his part.
 
Willow was forcing herself to try to sleep with Oz to get him to forgive her. Oz could hear in her voice that she wasn't ready- through inexperience, confusion because she couldn't keep her hands off of Xander. When Willow and Oz got back together, Oz knew that Willow still had feelings for Xander.

I disagree, because this isn't what I saw in the show. They have a few discussions about it in 'The Wish', but they very, very quickly go back to being the best friends they were before this. There's not even a hint of left over romantic feelings, except for Vamp!Willow. Xander backs off from Vamp!Willow VERY quickly and there's never anything else from either of them that even hints at any lingering feelings - except Willow's little bathroom episode, which, again, disappears without comment or follow up.

I would have been completely happy and would have completely understood if the issue had been dropped at Willow uncomfortable-ness in the cafeteria when they find out that Xander slept with Faith. THAT makes sense to me.

Right, because Willow WASN'T being selfish. There are a bunch of indicators that Willow still had lingering feelings for Xander- the I Love You in The Zeppo, Oz knowing that their relationship/feelings for on another will never be over, Willow crying in Consequences, Willow told Xander to not touch her even in friendship because she can't fall back on those bad habits- and that's just S3.

Alright, maybe 'selfish' is the wrong word in this case, but I still think it's out of character and out of place. I freely admit - and have many times - that I think Willow is an extremely selfish person, her feelings and what she wants always come first, no matter what anyone else thinks or feels. But the fact of the matter is that she's feeling upset because her very single, very free best friend slept with someone while she is busy thinking about and contemplating sleeping with her boyfriend. And I will never understand that.

I strongly disagree. Saying that Willow was selfish for feeling in private is the definition of denying and even more, condemning her for her emotions.

You're free to think what you want, but I know why I made this thread - because I didn't understand Willow's being upset in this scene and I'm still no closer to understanding it.

BTW, I think the S3 cheating storyline is very well-done from Willow's end. I'm totally with her emotionally at every step, even though I disagree with her actions from Homecoming through Lovers' Walk. It's weaker from Xander's end because it felt like more of an empty dalliance on his part.

And I think it's poorly written and badly plotted. We'll have to agree to disagree on that.
 
Willow is somewhat defined by her insecurities, especially in her highschool years.

I get why she's crying, but its an irrational feeling that stems entirely from those insecurities.
Willow had no reason to think Buffy was dumping her for Faith after just two days of hanging with the other slayer. But yet she did, she started drifting from Buffy during 'Consequences'.
The same thing with Xander, in Willow's mind, the meaning of it was all exaggerated. I treally was none of her business what Xander did, she was in a relationship with Oz, she offered Oz her virginity. End of.
 
Lyri
Lyri
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There are understandable emotions and then there are other emotion reactions that aren't so understandable. I thought all adults knew that.

Or are you, 'everyone's feelings are valid no matter what' kind of people. 😛
 
I'm sad and crying because I've had a bad break-up- understandable.

I'm sad and crying because my favourite tv show's been cancelled.- wierd but okay.

I'm sad and crying because unicorns aren't real.- Weird and insane.

Lesson: Not all emotional responses are valid. 🙂
 
It's fairly legitimate to cry about unicorns not existing if you had some emotional investment in the fantasy that they did. Of course if you're crying all the time merely because of the fact they don't exist, then that's out of the realm of emotions and getting towards being a mental disorder.
 
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