I liked the way it was handled. It wasn't made into a huge issue, Joss didn't try to make a big political statement with it (obviously just doing it made a little statement). It made something that probably wouldn't have made much sense (character "turning" gay) seem like a natural character development. And I love love love Tara, so that made it a lot easier.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Xander
You Can Call Me Ash
I have gay friends who have strong friendly feelings about the opposite gender. It's understandable, Willow has been friends with Xander for most of their lives and had a crush on him for years. Oz was her first true love (that was returned). What annoys me is when people say "Willow cant be gay because she loved Oz" as if people cant change sexuality.
And "Hello, Bi now" wouldn't of backed up the point Willow was making.
And "Hello, Bi now" wouldn't of backed up the point Willow was making.
Jacklyn
Now a Scapenerd too...
I have to admit-at first I was like WHAT!? i didn't have a problem with it, as I am bisexual myself, but I was worried-I feared that Joss was going to do this just to get publicity for the show, and it upset me-do you guys remember that Fox show Party of Five-when Julia (Neve Campbell) kissed that girl for no reason and they didn't really touch on it all that much after that-that's what I was scared of. but in the end it worked out quite well and I loved W/T more than I've loved MOST of the Buffy/Angel couples.
JustAnnie
~Annie~
I think it's a little weird that she went from straight to gay, I think she's bi.
But I think the relationship was done in a very good way. Watching them together you don't think "gay couple", it's just two people loving each other. They are so close and love each other so much. I loved Willow and Oz together, but thinking about it I don't think they would have lasted even if Willow hadn't fallen for Tara. I'm not sure why, they loved each other and all, but I still don't think it would last. I do think they would always have stayed friends though...It would have been interesting for Oz to have stayed or come back, and for them just to be friends. Then Oz and Xander could have been friends aswell, I always saw potential for them to become really good friends.
But I think the relationship was done in a very good way. Watching them together you don't think "gay couple", it's just two people loving each other. They are so close and love each other so much. I loved Willow and Oz together, but thinking about it I don't think they would have lasted even if Willow hadn't fallen for Tara. I'm not sure why, they loved each other and all, but I still don't think it would last. I do think they would always have stayed friends though...It would have been interesting for Oz to have stayed or come back, and for them just to be friends. Then Oz and Xander could have been friends aswell, I always saw potential for them to become really good friends.
blake
Child ofthe lesser God
For me it was a hard to swallow from a reality stand point. I don't know if it's black and white, as in you either like girls or you like guys. But going from an intense relationship with Oz, doing a spell just to make the tremendous hurt go away, to finding Tara. I can understand her finding Tara, and falling in love with the comfort that came with Tara, I just have a hard time swallowing her cut and dry, simply not being attracted to men AT ALL! after that point.
destructo_girl
Spike Is Mine! :)
I still liked Willow when I found out.. I think Willow and Tara are a really sweet couple... :: red ::
The_DarK_Puppet
i'm back! \m/
yup i agree, she could just love tara, and even discover she bi, but that doen't necessarly mean she could only like and be atrated to girls, i persnally will found the storyacr cooler if the writters made her bi, because after tara death, i much rather see her with Oz than with kennedy.. ::dead::blake said:I just have a hard time swallowing her cut and dry, simply not being attracted to men AT ALL! after that point.
Slayer+2004+
Chosen
I think Willow's coming out was fine, and I think Willow could have easily gone from Straight to Gay. Being Gay, I went from straight, to bi, to gay, and that was over the period of a year. So as Willow's relationship wasn't happening completely openly because she was in the closet for a while, she obviously struggled with her sexuality but it wasnt brought up during the show.
eponinethen
Majk
(I know noone writing in this thread but I just had to...)
I liked Willow with Oz, but I loved her turning gay, and I love her with Tara, that was the main reason why I started watching and loving the show.
I don't know why you say that it's more controversial with gay men than gay women. There's a lot more tv shows and movies about and with gay men.. And I even think that it's more accepted to be gay if you're a guy.. You know the thing with straight women who has gay (guy)friends.. The only thing about gay women is that, for some weird reason, straight guys find it them hot..
About Joss "handling" the Willow-turning-gay thing great.. Yeah, it's good that it isn't that big a deal.. And the first Tara/Willow kiss was in a great scene in a great way and all that (it was beautiful).. But their first on screen kiss was a year after they got together, and that is quite weird. Why didn't they kiss earlier? What's the big deal about that?
I liked Willow with Oz, but I loved her turning gay, and I love her with Tara, that was the main reason why I started watching and loving the show.
I don't know why you say that it's more controversial with gay men than gay women. There's a lot more tv shows and movies about and with gay men.. And I even think that it's more accepted to be gay if you're a guy.. You know the thing with straight women who has gay (guy)friends.. The only thing about gay women is that, for some weird reason, straight guys find it them hot..
About Joss "handling" the Willow-turning-gay thing great.. Yeah, it's good that it isn't that big a deal.. And the first Tara/Willow kiss was in a great scene in a great way and all that (it was beautiful).. But their first on screen kiss was a year after they got together, and that is quite weird. Why didn't they kiss earlier? What's the big deal about that?
Jill_Valentine
Sacred and Profane
We presume they did, it just wasn't shown onscreen, for two reasons. First of all, so it wasn't a big sensational event, and second of all, so that the network didn't brick themselves. In fact, it was done so seamlessly that I never actuallyn realised The Body was the first time until I heard the commentary.
I loved the scene with Buffy, it was beautifully done. Buffy says she's okay with it, but she's clearly not. (A brave move by the writer, to depict the heroine as uncomfortable with it...) The thing is, she wants to be okay with it, because Willow's her friend. Aw.
It's easy to forget with hindsight how astonishingly brave it was. Can you imagine Friends doing it? (I will concede that Carol and Susan was a big step too...) I grew up with StraightWillow so it was something of a shock to hear that's what was going to happen, but the arc was handled beautifully. I do remember though, that there were some people who were outraged, for various reasons. People who came to Buffy knowing about Willow probably can't imagine it, but some fans were furious that their Willow had "turned" gay. While I won't argue that she was supposed to be gay from the start, or even from the start of her relationship with Tara, I did have difficulty understanding why those people couldn't see it as a natural progression for Willow's character, and instead just wrote it off as exploitation or adding a token minority character.
The thing is: S4 was what? 4 years ago? 4 years on, I can't think of a single other gay character who's sexuality is part of their character rather than their defining attribute. 4 years is a long time in TV land, and BTVS is still a groundbreaker. Willow was a fully rounded character who just happened to be gay. Networks can say what they like, but it's arse - they are extremely unhappy about gay characters, and if the rumours about Amber Benson and Global Frequency are to be believed, they're even worse than I thought.
Having said all that, and I hate to quote my own post but...
I am increasingly inclined to believe that just like her Vamp counterpart, Willow was supposed to be Bi rather than your garden variety lesbian, at least until S7. First of all, there's the Xander and Oz thing, which I actually can buy as the "safe" loves of a confused young teen. But Hannigan herself seemed to reckon it a case of person over gender, and Joss has made it clear that no character was 100% either way. (Xander was a little camp occasionally, as were Giles, and Spike, and Angel, and I know folks who would fight til their last tooth to argue that Season 4 could have been a kind of college Xena if Buffy and Faith had remained on good terms) After the death of Tara (I think it was Noxon who said this, not sure) the decision was made that Willow's next significant other would be female, because it would suggest that Tara had been "a mistake" if Willow had a boyfriend. The problem is, lots of WillOz fans think that Kennedy proved the same thing about Oz... And I don't think it's unfair to say they seriously overcompensated by making Willow, in the words of boilsandblindingtorment.com, "the gayest gay gal in gaytown".
Ordinarily, I'd consider it mildly insulting to the intelligence of myself and my fellow fans that the shows' makers would think it beyond us to grasp the concept of a photogenic bisexual central character, but I recently spent an evening trying to explain the plot of Bound to my flatmates.
"No, look, for the last time, they're both girls...."
I loved the scene with Buffy, it was beautifully done. Buffy says she's okay with it, but she's clearly not. (A brave move by the writer, to depict the heroine as uncomfortable with it...) The thing is, she wants to be okay with it, because Willow's her friend. Aw.
It's easy to forget with hindsight how astonishingly brave it was. Can you imagine Friends doing it? (I will concede that Carol and Susan was a big step too...) I grew up with StraightWillow so it was something of a shock to hear that's what was going to happen, but the arc was handled beautifully. I do remember though, that there were some people who were outraged, for various reasons. People who came to Buffy knowing about Willow probably can't imagine it, but some fans were furious that their Willow had "turned" gay. While I won't argue that she was supposed to be gay from the start, or even from the start of her relationship with Tara, I did have difficulty understanding why those people couldn't see it as a natural progression for Willow's character, and instead just wrote it off as exploitation or adding a token minority character.
The thing is: S4 was what? 4 years ago? 4 years on, I can't think of a single other gay character who's sexuality is part of their character rather than their defining attribute. 4 years is a long time in TV land, and BTVS is still a groundbreaker. Willow was a fully rounded character who just happened to be gay. Networks can say what they like, but it's arse - they are extremely unhappy about gay characters, and if the rumours about Amber Benson and Global Frequency are to be believed, they're even worse than I thought.
Having said all that, and I hate to quote my own post but...
I am increasingly inclined to believe that just like her Vamp counterpart, Willow was supposed to be Bi rather than your garden variety lesbian, at least until S7. First of all, there's the Xander and Oz thing, which I actually can buy as the "safe" loves of a confused young teen. But Hannigan herself seemed to reckon it a case of person over gender, and Joss has made it clear that no character was 100% either way. (Xander was a little camp occasionally, as were Giles, and Spike, and Angel, and I know folks who would fight til their last tooth to argue that Season 4 could have been a kind of college Xena if Buffy and Faith had remained on good terms) After the death of Tara (I think it was Noxon who said this, not sure) the decision was made that Willow's next significant other would be female, because it would suggest that Tara had been "a mistake" if Willow had a boyfriend. The problem is, lots of WillOz fans think that Kennedy proved the same thing about Oz... And I don't think it's unfair to say they seriously overcompensated by making Willow, in the words of boilsandblindingtorment.com, "the gayest gay gal in gaytown".
Ordinarily, I'd consider it mildly insulting to the intelligence of myself and my fellow fans that the shows' makers would think it beyond us to grasp the concept of a photogenic bisexual central character, but I recently spent an evening trying to explain the plot of Bound to my flatmates.
"No, look, for the last time, they're both girls...."
C
Cordelia
Agree and as usual wonderfully stated
eponinethen
Majk
Ok, I just read a lot about this.. The Tara/Willow relationship. I didn't realize how big this was, in the groundbreaking way. I guess I'm not that familiar with how these things work in USA, with tv shows and what you can show and all that.. (Not that it's really common with serious lesbian relationships in Swedish tv shows.)
(I hate this, I can't find the right words to explain what I want to say..)
As I said, I love the first on screen kiss, it beautifully done. (Just that I've read so much about the "first lesbian kiss", it's mentioned all the time, and I was waiting for it in some of the episodes after Hush.. Or at least in New Moon Rising.. So I was surprised that it wasn't in any episode until The Body..)
I was surprised too, when Willow "turned" gay (but only in a good way)..
(Hehe, I love Bound..)
(I hate this, I can't find the right words to explain what I want to say..)
As I said, I love the first on screen kiss, it beautifully done. (Just that I've read so much about the "first lesbian kiss", it's mentioned all the time, and I was waiting for it in some of the episodes after Hush.. Or at least in New Moon Rising.. So I was surprised that it wasn't in any episode until The Body..)
I was surprised too, when Willow "turned" gay (but only in a good way)..
(Hehe, I love Bound..)
Xander
You Can Call Me Ash
Picking up on some points (and adding some) to what J_V said.
I like the way Willow did come out, she didn't gather her friends and do a big speech. She came out to Buffy with a look, and to the rest while arguing with Buffy. It was so simple and almost not said that makes it wonderful.
The way Buffy reacted was in a real way because yes she was happy for her friend but its big news and she can't just say "that's fine" she will be startled by it.
What I like about the Tara and willow relationship is that they treated it as a relationship, not a lesbian relationship but just a relationship.
I like the way Willow did come out, she didn't gather her friends and do a big speech. She came out to Buffy with a look, and to the rest while arguing with Buffy. It was so simple and almost not said that makes it wonderful.
The way Buffy reacted was in a real way because yes she was happy for her friend but its big news and she can't just say "that's fine" she will be startled by it.
What I like about the Tara and willow relationship is that they treated it as a relationship, not a lesbian relationship but just a relationship.
J
Jill_Valentine
"treated it as a relationship, not a lesbian relationship" What I was trying to say, but with added sense.
eponinethen
Majk
Yes, I love that too.. That they didn't make a thing out of it, "Hi, I need to tell you all something that I've realized about myself..." Cause most of the time it's not like that, in real life..
I don't know if it seemed like I think they "handled" the relationship badly in some way, cause I don't.. (I was just commenting on what the others had said in this thread..)
I don't know if it seemed like I think they "handled" the relationship badly in some way, cause I don't.. (I was just commenting on what the others had said in this thread..)
vampwillow69
Townie
willow
i loved oz.. but he had broke willows heart so when she finally did find some-one else. i was happy for her... tara is sooooo sweet its impossible to find any fault with it🙂 but joss was planning the gay thing from season 3.. remember vampwillow snuggling..willow says to buffy.. i think im/she's a bit gay.. buffy tries to tell her.. she's a vamp, nothing to do with u.. but angel says... actually it is 🙂
i loved oz.. but he had broke willows heart so when she finally did find some-one else. i was happy for her... tara is sooooo sweet its impossible to find any fault with it🙂 but joss was planning the gay thing from season 3.. remember vampwillow snuggling..willow says to buffy.. i think im/she's a bit gay.. buffy tries to tell her.. she's a vamp, nothing to do with u.. but angel says... actually it is 🙂
phoenixrising
W/T Chief Shipper
IMHO, Willow is bi. And I back this argument up with facts.
I have a few gay friends and my housemate for a while was gay. In conversation with him, he mentioned that his first time with a woman felt wrong. Willow never showed that she felt being with Oz was wrong.
Then Oz leaves and Willow meets Tara. To me, Tara was her soulmate and just happened to be a woman, thus showing that love knows no bounds, even disregarding gender. Willow herself says (in reply to Kennedy's questioning) that she loved one woman; Tara.
I loved that fact that Willow and Tara were shown as a relationship in which the two people just happened to both be women. They were so cute and loving together and Alyson Hannigan and Amber Benson just had a great chemistry together. You could really believe these two people loved each other.
I was annoyed that Willow started to refer to herself as strictly gay in the later episodes, like she was trying to forget or pretend that her relationship with Oz never happened. It wouldn't have worked as well in her argument with Anya to say 'hello, bi now' but would have acknowledged that fact that she wasn't always interested in women.
I remember watching the fourth season and thinking, 'it's nice Willow has this cool friend, but it would be nice to see her with a new love interest'. This was me seeing the show with heterosexual blinders on. In retrospect, it was the best way to begin one of the most beautiful relationships ever seen on Buffy.
Also, Xander being gay would have been completely wrong for the character as he was shown as being totally obsessed with women (as seen when Buffy can read his mind in 'Earshot'). Plus his relationship with Anya, while often played for laughs, was also a beautiful thing.
I have a few gay friends and my housemate for a while was gay. In conversation with him, he mentioned that his first time with a woman felt wrong. Willow never showed that she felt being with Oz was wrong.
Then Oz leaves and Willow meets Tara. To me, Tara was her soulmate and just happened to be a woman, thus showing that love knows no bounds, even disregarding gender. Willow herself says (in reply to Kennedy's questioning) that she loved one woman; Tara.
I loved that fact that Willow and Tara were shown as a relationship in which the two people just happened to both be women. They were so cute and loving together and Alyson Hannigan and Amber Benson just had a great chemistry together. You could really believe these two people loved each other.
I was annoyed that Willow started to refer to herself as strictly gay in the later episodes, like she was trying to forget or pretend that her relationship with Oz never happened. It wouldn't have worked as well in her argument with Anya to say 'hello, bi now' but would have acknowledged that fact that she wasn't always interested in women.
I remember watching the fourth season and thinking, 'it's nice Willow has this cool friend, but it would be nice to see her with a new love interest'. This was me seeing the show with heterosexual blinders on. In retrospect, it was the best way to begin one of the most beautiful relationships ever seen on Buffy.
Also, Xander being gay would have been completely wrong for the character as he was shown as being totally obsessed with women (as seen when Buffy can read his mind in 'Earshot'). Plus his relationship with Anya, while often played for laughs, was also a beautiful thing.
eponinethen
Majk
I keep changing my mind on this "bi vs gay" thing when it comes to Willow. Not that it really is a big thing she needs to decide. I mean sha can just live on and fall in love with whoever and she'll probably notice if that person is a guy or a girl. But, since Willow starts refer to herself as gay, I believe she is. I believe she did love Oz, maybe he was an "exception" or maybe she just wasn't gay then. But I do believe she "became" gay. She always says "good thing I realized I was gay", like she really is gay now, like she knows she'll never fall for a guy again. And I do believe her cause, well who would know that better than Willow herself? Lol, if she says she's gay she is, I'm not gonna argue against her on that, hehe.
Shattered
Kafuffle
I never had a problem with Willow being gay, I actually think that it was good that they had someone on there be gay, so other people watching the show, would know that it IS okay to be yourself, even if that is being gay. Plus, I LOVED the Tara/Willow relationship even better then the one with Oz!