Willow's Sexuality

[Edmund Blackadder]

Because I agree with you. I didn't last night, but I suppose that technically she could be labelled as bi.

Well colour me mustard, slap my cankles and call me Jeremiah Bobcat Thistlethwaite III - I changed your opinion!!!

Anywho, I just want to make clear to the rest of the group as much as its a technicality I do not for one second think she is bisexual.

 

[DoctorWhovian]

Well colour me mustard, slap my cankles and call me Jeremiah Bobcat Thistlethwaite III - I changed your opinion!!!

Anywho, I just want to make clear to the rest of the group as much as its a technicality I do not for one second think she is bisexual.

I guess it was because I'm not one for technicalities , but I suppose it's right.

 

[Airam]

K so I'm the one that started this thread in the first place so I've already stated my views at length but I thought it meritted revisiting...

First I'll say that I do accept that Willow is gay. The writers wrote it for her to say on more than one occasion, and she in fact did say it, and what the writers write for the characters to say is canon, so it HAS to be accepted as such. BUT, in my opinion, the writers chose poorly when deciding to make this clear distinction for the character of Willow... Like I said in someone's rep further up, I think the transition from Oz to Tara was very abrupt and without any explanation as to how it was that Willow came to fall in love with a woman after never before showing ANY signs at all of having attraction for females. The no explanation thing would have been completely fine, GREAT even, refreshing, IF it had remained unexplained, if they had never labeled her. Because I think it makes sense for certain people to just fall in love with the person and not just the anatomy. Maybe its not a usual occurrence, maybe its even just a fairytale-ish idealistic notion, but IMO, it would have been beautiful if portrayed that way. Because she WAS in love with Tara, just like she WAS in love with Oz (and *ugh* I guess she was even in love with Kennedy too *shudder*) and when the writers decided to go and clearly label Willow gay, even though some might say it doesn't, I think it did and does to a degree diminish her relationship with Oz. Its like he no longer was this wonderful guy that was her first true love, her first experience making love, her first devastating heartache.... now that she's labeled only gay, he kinda becomes, just this guy she dated before she realized she was a lesbian. And I think both relationships should be remembered as beautiful as they each were and each given the credit they deserve and earned, you know? Thats how I feel about it anyway.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

Perhaps we should keep in mind that Willow was harbouring insecurities about her sexuality, even when with Tara. Remember the argument they had just before Tara got Smooshed by Glory? Willow immediately jumped to the "lesbo street cred" argument, which Tara totally hadn't meant. This could be a reason for the overcompensation. What the characters say is NOT always "canon", in the sense that it must be true on face value. She was insecure and confused, which led to her grabbing onto "the gay" and waving it in people's faces whenever she's challenged. I can understand that.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Because she WAS in love with Tara, just like she WAS in love with Oz (and *ugh* I guess she was even in love with Kennedy too *shudder*) and when the writers decided to go and clearly label Willow gay, even though some might say it doesn't, I think it did and does to a degree diminish her relationship with Oz. Its like he no longer was this wonderful guy that was her first true love, her first experience making love, her first devastating heartache.... now that she's labeled only gay, he kinda becomes, just this guy she dated before she realized she was a lesbian. And I think both relationships should be remembered as beautiful as they each were and each given the credit they deserve and earned, you know? Thats how I feel about it anyway.

While I do see Oz exactly as that (the guy she dated before she realized she's really lez), I don't think it diminishes their love. As hard as it is to admit (y'all know that Ozlow gives me jealous vibes 😛 ), Oz was a wonderful boyfriend, and I have no doubt at all that she loved him, and indeed will always love him - just not in a sexual way anymore. Even if Oz came back, I don't see any chance of them going sexy-couply ever again... she realized in the meantime that she doesn't tick that way. 😉

And let's not forget that Willow has always been the one who needs the other side to make the first step (the only examples to the contrary happening under the influence of love spells) - you see that pattern every time, whether with Xander, Oz, Tara, or Kennedy... heck, even with Amy (though the "courting" there isn't sexual in nature) and (sorry to bring up that ep 😀 ) Moloch.

I think a big part of her attraction towards Oz was not based on "hey, that guy is sexy!" (remember the scene when Buffy tells her "that guy's looking at you" and she replies "ah, that's just Oz"?) but rather "whoa, there's actually someone interested in me!?". (Yes I do know she's the one who asks him for their first date... but that's quite a bit after he gives out unmistakable signs of being interested in the monkey cookie scene, and she still has to be cheered on by Buffy to do so. 😉 )

 

[Airam]

^^^

I totally see your points, I guess we just have different opinions on Willow and Oz. DO think that in the future if Oz came back and Willow wasn't in a relationship that they might totally explore the possibilities of being a couple again... Willow kinda tells us herself in New Moon Rising...

Willow quiets, pained and emotional.


WILLOW
I missed you, Oz. I wrote you so
many letters - but I didn't have
any place to send them, you know?
I couldn't live like that.


OZ
It was stupid to think you'd just
be waiting.


WILLOW
I was waiting. I feel like some
part of me will always be waiting
for you. Like, if I'm old and
blue-haired and I turn a corner
in Istanbul and there you are -
I won't be surprised. Because
you're there with me - you know?

Oz allows himself to look at her.


OZ
I know.
(with difficulty)
But now's not that time, I guess.


WILLOW
No.
(then)
What are you going to do?


OZ
I think I'd better take off.


WILLOW
When?


OZ
Pretty much now.

Willow nods, starts to cry. Oz finally touches her, puts his hand on hers. Willow moves into his arms - and they stay like that for a long time.

​

I see that as a very poignant and telling scene and it can be taken as a declaration, evidence, that Willow is fully open to being with Oz again in the future... in fact from her words alone it seems as though she almost expects it.

Plus I really, really want it to happen :silly:

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

^ Well, that's the old Bangel argument again. First loves and all that. Cookie dough.


I hate Joss so much. :silly:

 

[Airam]

^ Well, that's the old Bangel argument again. First loves and all that. Cookie dough.


I hate Joss so much. :silly:

I don't know, I don't think its quite the same as the Bangel cookie dough thing... My thing with Buffy and Angel getting back together is that its hard for me to believe that with Spike being in the picture and available for Buffy to choose, that at this point in her life she'd choose Angel over Spike. But if Spike weren't an option I guess I could see Buffy falling back into being with Angel if he wanted her back... With Oz and Willow, if Oz turned back up in her life and she wasn't seriously seeing anyone, I do believe they'd find a way back into eachothers hearts and begin a relationship again with ease... BUT it would be a completely different story were Tara still alive. If that were the case and Oz showed up again wanting her or asking about their future (like Angel did of Buffy) I think she'd be torn a little maybe, but in the end she'd always choose Tara over Oz if Tara was an available option.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

I don't know, I don't think its quite the same as the Bangel cookie dough thing... My thing with Buffy and Angel getting back together is that its hard for me to believe that with Spike being in the picture and available for Buffy to choose, that at this point in her life she'd choose Angel over Spike. But if Spike weren't an option I guess I could see Buffy falling back into being with Angel if he wanted her back... With Oz and Willow, if Oz turned back up in her life and she wasn't seriously seeing anyone, I do believe they'd find a way back into eachothers hearts and begin a relationship again with ease... BUT it would be a completely different story were Tara still alive. If that were the case and Oz showed up again wanting her or asking about their future (like Angel did of Buffy) I think she'd be torn a little maybe, but in the end she'd always choose Tara over Oz if Tara was an available option.

So....it is like the Bangel thing? 😛

I agree, they're at different stages. But I think New Moon Rising was Willow's cookie dough moment. Now, when you said "wasn't seriously seeing anyone", I just know you meant Kennedy, and so I kind of agree that if Oz turned up in S8, she'd be torn. Especially if she wasn't with Kennedy.

However, I also feel that the same would happen for Buffy. It's the memory that would attract them more than the person. So, I don't think Woz would last, but I do see it happening.

 

[Airam]

So....it is like the Bangel thing? 😛

I agree, they're at different stages. But I think New Moon Rising was Willow's cookie dough moment. Now, when you said "wasn't seriously seeing anyone", I just know you meant Kennedy, and so I kind of agree that if Oz turned up in S8, she'd be torn. Especially if she wasn't with Kennedy.

However, I also feel that the same would happen for Buffy. It's the memory that would attract them more than the person. So, I don't think Woz would last, but I do see it happening.

Wow! What, huh... JESUS, LMFAO, I just seriously confused the living crap out of myself! I blame it on too much wine last night and no food yet today... I'm not 100%... yeah thats it...

You're totally right, I reread what I wrote and it does sound like while I was trying to contrast, I TOTALLY compared. I agree, it really is pretty much the same just at different stages. And lol, you caught on to my Kennedy backhanded comment, DAMN! 😛

And I couldn't agree with you more about it being the memories that would entice them to rekindle the relationship more than neccesarily the person. The idea of recreating all the wonderful moments that made up the relationship in the past can be so very alluring .

 

[InsaneMystic]

^^^

I totally see your points, I guess we just have different opinions on Willow and Oz. DO think that in the future if Oz came back and Willow wasn't in a relationship that they might totally explore the possibilities of being a couple again... Willow kinda tells us herself in New Moon Rising...


I see that as a very poignant and telling scene and it can be taken as a declaration, evidence, that Willow is fully open to being with Oz again in the future... in fact from her words alone it seems as though she almost expects it.

Plus I really, really want it to happen :silly:

I've not forgotten that scene. 🙂 It's just that, you know, it happens when Tillow is pretty much still in it's beginning stage... I've always thought that T&W had not, uhm, "gone horizontal" at that point yet (I think what happened after the blowing out of the candle was their "first time" together 😉 ), as I don't consider Tara's reaction to be one based merely in her insecurity. To me, it's at a point of time where Willow still hasn't decided/accepted/found out that she's gay, as she hasn't done the "full package" yet.

By the time of "gay now" - and especially in "Him", when it seems natural to her to try and morph RJ into a woman with a spell instead of "going along with his anatomy", I think she's definitely beyond considering cumshuck with men, including Oz... even though he indubitably still has a special place in her heart and will so forever, they'd not get beyond the holding each other close into the sweaty part again.

And I fully admit that this interpretation is heavily colored by how I want it to happen. 😉

 

[Professor Walsh]

I actually appreciate the overstating of Willow as a gay character because it made it impossible for people wanting to lessen the impact of such a beloved and normal female character being a lesbian. That way it couldn’t be brushed off as “just going through a phase”. Sadly, there are still far too many who negates the validity of homosexual relationships around. I’ve never once thought about it lessening her relationship with Oz before opening this thread.

I'd like to address something in the previous post that is consistently annoying amongst everyone I ever encounter:
What is 'womanly'? I mean, how can you define what it is to be a woman, beyond XX?

Oooh, I know. I learned it from a chap whom I met whilst I was an exchange student. He told me, after I’d taken very well care of a girl he dumped, that seeing me show my nurturing side like that stopped him believing that I was a lesbian. Yeah. The fact that my partner was a boy wasn’t enough of a hint, apparently.

Lots of people are bisexual but have a CLEAR preference. And how many people do you know in the real world who fall in love with the person, not the gender? Come on now...is Willow the beginning of a new species?

If heterosexuality wasn’t so fundamentally ingrained in our society, and if the gay and straight communities alike weren’t so sceptical to people identifying as bisexual, I think a lot more people could find themselves falling in love (or in lust) with people of both sexes during the path of their lives. I certainly know that I can, even though me being married can be viewed as a sturdy indicator that I have no plans to act on any feelings that may arise.