Willow's sexuality
- Thread starter Robb Stark
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I honestly don't understand this train of thought, really I don't.
Yes, Willow had a good and well adjusted relationship with Oz, but clearly she found more satisfaction and pleasure and happiness in her relationship with Tara, thus she decided that she would rather be with a woman than be with a man again.
[MENTION=12370]EffieT1[/MENTION] said it herself - she would never even question this is this was someone she knew in the real world, so why is it such an issue with Willow?
Yes, Willow had a good and well adjusted relationship with Oz, but clearly she found more satisfaction and pleasure and happiness in her relationship with Tara, thus she decided that she would rather be with a woman than be with a man again.
[MENTION=12370]EffieT1[/MENTION] said it herself - she would never even question this is this was someone she knew in the real world, so why is it such an issue with Willow?
I don't think we will find any answers by looking at sexuality in such binary terms. I don't have the figures available to me at the moment but a significant percentage of self-identifying gay people have had meaningful, committed and sexually enjoyable heterosexual relationships prior to coming out as gay. That's certainly true of one of my best friends, my college roommate, and nearly every other gay friend that I have. Willow's story isn't atypical, in fact it is incredibly common. A person's sexuality isn't always completely known to them. Like in Willow's case, it cane be revealed over time. Not only is this revealing of ones' true identity a common thing for people to go through, it is arguably a strong aspect of Willow's personality. From the first episode we see Willow slowly become "more herself", with Buffy's influence she begins branching out and finding out who she is. From hacking, to witch craft, to Oz, to Tara and so on. Once Willow begins her relationship with Tara she appears to found out who she is, truly, as a person. With this relationship she knows herself to be gay. She identifies as a gay woman and she doesn't express interest in men again. I really don't feel that any feelings she once had for Oz, or even Xander, refute or contend with this. Willow is gay. That is how she describes herself. Her once having relationships with men doesn't factor into that. In the same way that I don't think we could ever call Buffy bisexual. Yes, she had a very positive experience with Satsu, but if you were to ask Buffy she would self identify as straight. The two nights she spent with Satsu don't change that.
Lyri
This.
I agree with [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] that they fell in love because of their shared experiences of being lonely and vulnerable and their shared interests. Gender, I agree, had very little to do with it.
I also agree with [MENTION=8356]HisMrs[/MENTION] that if people are going to put a label on Willow, then it ought to be bisexual as she had previously shown interest in boys such as Owen and 'Malcolm' as well as her obvious love for both Xander and Oz.
My point of view on sexuality in general is that it doesn't matter which gender you are attracted to or what label you want to put on it just be true to yourself and honest with others.
I also agree with [MENTION=8356]HisMrs[/MENTION] that if people are going to put a label on Willow, then it ought to be bisexual as she had previously shown interest in boys such as Owen and 'Malcolm' as well as her obvious love for both Xander and Oz.
My point of view on sexuality in general is that it doesn't matter which gender you are attracted to or what label you want to put on it just be true to yourself and honest with others.
EffieT1
Townie
Hmm cool, did not know that, to be honest I havent actually known anyone or had any gay friends which may seem odd but its just how it is for now to be honest I personally have no problem with it (something which bless their hearts bothers my conservative family and friends when i voice my liberal pro-gay views) but anyway back to the matter at hand, i like your point and hopefully it'll help me better come to terms with the willow switch.🙂
Kean
:)
I really don't see why we are seeking to find a label for Willow when she gas already claimed one for herself: gay.
This I agree with. I think sexuality is a fluid thing, I believe it is ultimately indefinable. People should just be and let that be that.
I actually like what the writers did here. I can related to Willow a lot. When I was in high school, not one could have ever told I was attracted to girls, a bit like Willow. I was very confused but I was very much attracted to guys. I had many guy friends and I wanted more from the friendships. I never really dated but I guess you could say I had a few flings. No one ever doubted my sexuality and I was always viewed as absolutely straight. I knew I liked girls but at the time I was kind of going through a rough patch and it's not something I was thinking about very much. In first year university I fell for this guys which I liked very much. He was smart, attractive and we were very cute together, so we dated for a bit but he ended up dumping me, I was sad, but got over it and we remained friends. At that point even though I had always been with guys, I knew I was at least bisexual but kept identifying as straight for the remaining of the year, mostly in fear of coming out.
Last year I finally came out, completely fell for a girl. That's when I realized, although I had some good relationships with previous guys, they were never what I experience with that girl. Sadly I ended up getting my heart broken, but it made me realize how different that relationship was. Now that I think about it, even though I do find guys attractive, I'm starting to identify myself as gay more and more. I just realize how different it was to be with someone that you truly love and I don't think I could ever feel that way for a guy.
I feel like my sexuality is about the same as Willow. Yes she loved Oz, be she was IN love with Tara. Just like me, I know I can love a guy, but I don't know if I could be in love with a guy. And at the same time, maybe I am wrong, maybe I will end up with a guy, but for now I don't think it will happen, so I can see why Willow would identify as gay and not bisexual. I mostly just identify as asexual, since it describes me better as a whole, but I definitely know where Willow is coming from.
Last year I finally came out, completely fell for a girl. That's when I realized, although I had some good relationships with previous guys, they were never what I experience with that girl. Sadly I ended up getting my heart broken, but it made me realize how different that relationship was. Now that I think about it, even though I do find guys attractive, I'm starting to identify myself as gay more and more. I just realize how different it was to be with someone that you truly love and I don't think I could ever feel that way for a guy.
I feel like my sexuality is about the same as Willow. Yes she loved Oz, be she was IN love with Tara. Just like me, I know I can love a guy, but I don't know if I could be in love with a guy. And at the same time, maybe I am wrong, maybe I will end up with a guy, but for now I don't think it will happen, so I can see why Willow would identify as gay and not bisexual. I mostly just identify as asexual, since it describes me better as a whole, but I definitely know where Willow is coming from.
Kana
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I was thinking about this the other day and I'm still on the fence. I remember Joss got accused of enforcing the "No Bisexuals" trope. In other words for the first few seasons Willow is portrayed as straight, then Tara comes along and suddenly she's gay, even to the point that she wants to turn RJ into a girl after the love spell in "Him".
People have defended this by stating the sexuality is fluid and it depends more on self identification as there are many factors that contribute to sexuality; some of them personal and subjective. However can we give the writers the benefit of the doubt? The concept of possible bisexuality or self-identification didn't really come up.
We could argue that they were making a point of it not that big a deal, but either way, the issue is not really addressed on the show with any degree with detail.
I definitely still on the fence on this one
People have defended this by stating the sexuality is fluid and it depends more on self identification as there are many factors that contribute to sexuality; some of them personal and subjective. However can we give the writers the benefit of the doubt? The concept of possible bisexuality or self-identification didn't really come up.
We could argue that they were making a point of it not that big a deal, but either way, the issue is not really addressed on the show with any degree with detail.
I definitely still on the fence on this one
Evil Angelus 95
Total Dork
The way I see it, after a lot of thought and time, Willow is a lesbian. Why? Because she herself identifies herself as such. That's what she considers herself to be, and that's what we should respect.
Kana
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I do get that and my above post already acknowledges the concept of 'self-identification' and if Willow were a real person I'd simply accept that but that's not precisely what I'm asking.
I'm asking did the writers really think about these concepts or did Joss simply want to turn one of his characters gay? I'm asking, are giving the writers the benefit of the doubt?
I find the concept of sexuality so intrinsically flawed, it all goes down to personal choice, otherwise, sexual pleasure is sexual pleasure, it doesn't matter where it comes from, the ancient greeks would do anything (literally), which I think suggests that sexuality is socially constructed, I might love women, and then like a guy, or vica versa, or neither... but ultimately it's a pointless argument to try and classify people in one of the three restrictive categories of gay, bi, homo... although I appreciate Buffy's attempt to address this.
Kana
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I don't find the idea of sexuality intrinsically flawed as such. It's more that I concept of forcing people into 'categories', for want of a better word, flawed. People can absolutely label themselves as they like and I believe that sexual behaviour does have many facets to it, but my question is did the writers give it that much thought?
Don't get me wrong, in the grand scheme of things it shouldn't matter, but it was just question arising from pure curiosity.
I agree, I think the show dealt with what it could, Willow became a lesbian and stayed that way, which was massive thing at that time, but I agree that the writers didn't give it enough thought, and went onto support traditional 'categories', but at the time it was the best they could do.
Kana
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Yes, the writer's did give this some thought. I can't pin point any specific interviews but Joss has mentioned many times that it was very important to him to 1) Have a main, gay character and 2) Keep Willow gay after Tara. He's addressed that because at the time he wanted to make a point that Willow's relationship with Tara was real and that her sexuality was real, this was more easily done by making her a lesbian vs. making her bisexual (because there was a trend of characters going gay before being straight again at the time of airing).
I think Joss touched on that in the commentary for the Killer in Me.
Also, enjoying sex and loving someone doesn't equate to one's sexuality. What Willow had with Oz was very much real, but it also doesn't make her straight. I think that's somewhat what they writer's were going for (this part, unlike the rest, is speculation on my part).
Deus Ex Machina
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The bold part just gave me pause. It's as if you (or Whedon) is saying that if Willow dated a man after Tara, then she still wouldn't be part of the LGBT crowd, which is false because she would've been bisexual, not straight. They could've fixed the pesky "straight after gay relationship ending" problem by actually having Willow say "Hey, I just love people. I loved Oz, I loved Tara, now I love this person." Willow could've dated anyone after Tara and still be bisexual. If she had dated a man, it wouldn't have made her sexuality any less "real".
Also, people keep stating that Willow wanted to turn RJ into a girl. No. Willow was fine with RJ as is and said she could work around the genital problem. ANYA suggested Willow turning RJ into a girl on accident, and for Willow, that meant knocking everyone else out of the competition because she was the only one that would /go there/ (as far as she knew, we don't know if the jacket would've made it a non-problem for the other girls).
As I explained in my initial post, the issue was not that making Willow bisexual would diminish the relationship (in real life), the issue was that this is exactly what was happening on all of the other shows being aired at the same time as Buffy. All of those other shows had those "lesbian" relationship and then the character would go back to being "straight" with no explanation (The O.C., 90210 for example). So when you are trying to be a staple show in exploring LGBT issues, you have to be careful of what you put on the air. Not as much nowadays, but it was very prominent at the time of BtVS. And trust me, I know all about biphobia (a huge issue in the LGBT community itself). The problem with the show was that there was only 1 more season, no time to explore bisexuality of truly explain Willow's feelings. It was safer to make her next relationship be with a girl, and the message was clearer.
I'm definitely still waiting on a show that will do bisexual characters right. BtVS was not that show to me. It's not that I would have had a problem with Willow being bisexual, it's that I doubt they would have done it right after Tara's death.
riceballalien
Spuffy for life! :D
I am bisexual. I like both men and women. I personally think Willlow is as well. You also have to think of the times that Buffy came out. Being bisexual was really looked down upon( and being gay...). It quite frankly was completely misunderstood. I feel like Joss had a choice. The show was very popular. It made almost everyone of the actors famous. The show itself regardless of this, it has a great impact on popular culture. I feel like he did a great deed by making a character gay. It is one of the reasons I watched the show. I felt a bit more normal and was able to accept myself. I personally think, Willow did discover herself. I believe she was very traumatized by the way her and Oz broke up. Meaning she made the decision to be completely with girls after him. I don't know if a lot of people know this. But you can be bisexual and have a preference. Back in the day, it was very clear that you had to chose a side. I grew up in the 90s and knew lots of people who bashed bisexuals. So I think going with popular culture at the time, she chose to identify as a lesbian because it was easier.
GentlyBenevolnt
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I just think we don't have enough words.
Part of sexuality is self-identification and in that sense Willow is gay cos she said she's gay and (were she a real person) we should respect her right to express who she feels she is.
Another part of sexuality is activity, and in that sense, Willow is gay because her actions recently have all been with women (incl lady snakes)
The last part of sexuality is falling in love and here I totally understand people saying 'I think she's really bisexual' because they're saying that they could conceive of Willow falling for a guy at some point.
But a lot of the stuff above is people using the words gay and bisexual and some mean identity and others mean activity etc.
Buffy is bi by recent activity, but straight by identity (as far as I know), Willow is bi by her history but gay by identity. It's all good... as long as we can find some words to make sense of it all!
PS a reason why self identification is so touchy an issue is that no one wants to be defined purely by their activity. Because otherwise, what are you when you're celibate? If you get married do you stop being heterosexual and become 'spouse-sexual'? If you're bi and monogamous, does someone take away your 'bi' creds? Etc etc
Activity is visible and so often becomes what we hang our decisions about other people on, but their self identification is what's important to them.
For a great example, to step in someone else's shoes, look at the studies done on gay old folks who get depressed when carers etc presume they're straight, even if they haven't slept with anyone in decades.
Part of sexuality is self-identification and in that sense Willow is gay cos she said she's gay and (were she a real person) we should respect her right to express who she feels she is.
Another part of sexuality is activity, and in that sense, Willow is gay because her actions recently have all been with women (incl lady snakes)
The last part of sexuality is falling in love and here I totally understand people saying 'I think she's really bisexual' because they're saying that they could conceive of Willow falling for a guy at some point.
But a lot of the stuff above is people using the words gay and bisexual and some mean identity and others mean activity etc.
Buffy is bi by recent activity, but straight by identity (as far as I know), Willow is bi by her history but gay by identity. It's all good... as long as we can find some words to make sense of it all!
PS a reason why self identification is so touchy an issue is that no one wants to be defined purely by their activity. Because otherwise, what are you when you're celibate? If you get married do you stop being heterosexual and become 'spouse-sexual'? If you're bi and monogamous, does someone take away your 'bi' creds? Etc etc
Activity is visible and so often becomes what we hang our decisions about other people on, but their self identification is what's important to them.
For a great example, to step in someone else's shoes, look at the studies done on gay old folks who get depressed when carers etc presume they're straight, even if they haven't slept with anyone in decades.
bespangeled
I like your reasoning, and your clear voice. You said it better than i could
You've summed up my problems with going by history. The big problem with this is that in real life, lots of queer teenagers do not start off with being in a relationship in accordance to their identity. Many lesbians will have a boyfriend before coming out as gay for example. Sadly, straight is pretty much just the default. If people didn't assume everyone was straight, many of the problems concerning these types of issues would become non-existant.
There's also the issue if bi-erasing in TV shows, but more often than not I've seen this when they have one character have a short relationship with someone of the same sex (usually a girl) before going back to being straight for the rest of the show. Usually it's very obviously done for ratings. To me that's not how Willow's story came off but maybe that's just me.
Quoting myself here lol but I meant to write pansexual. Asexuality is a whole other topic. Which also doesn't recieve enough attention in the media.