Without Angelus, would Spike have been Spike?

[bespangeled]

Or would he have been more like Harmony? What we see of him before Angelus literally screws him over is a super confident William who believes he has found a nice accepting family. He is a ponce, like he always was, with a taste for the theatrical and Byronesque. While he talks a good game, he seems more interested in screwing Dru than hunting down food. Rather than going for a huge massacre, he goes to save his mother from tuberculosis and doesn't even realize that he unleashed a demon that tore into him. He seems to have no idea what being demonic means.

He claims that it was Angelus who made him into a monster - and Angelus claims he just opened the door. Darla opened the door and let the real Angelus out. But it was Dru who opened the door for Spike, and he seems far more engrossed in having a sex life than anything else.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Without Angelus Spike would still be William as there would be no Dru without Angelus.

 

[Mr Trick]

Yeah I do agree that Angelus and Dre had profound inflences on Spike. I think than the characters days as William is important to what Spike becomes too though, as it explains why he is a much more sensitive and melodramatic vampire at times.

 

[Taake]

Without Angelus Spike would still be William as there would be no Dru without Angelus.

Without Angelus turning Dru there would be no Spike. But with Dru turned, and Spike turned, things could've been different if they hadn't been hanging around Angelus.

So without Angelus I think Spike would've been different. I think he thrived on having to prove himself against a father/brother figure like that (he clearly didn't have a strong father figure in his human life) and I think that explains part of why the Angelus/Spike dynamic is so interesting.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Without Angelus turning Dru there would be no Spike. But with Dru turned, and Spike turned, things could've been different if they hadn't been hanging around Angelus.

So without Angelus I think Spike would've been different. I think he thrived on having to prove himself against a father/brother figure like that (he clearly didn't have a strong father figure in his human life) and I think that explains part of why the Angelus/Spike dynamic is so interesting.

But if Angelus was not hanging around then Darla would have made Spike into the new 'Angelus'

 

[Taake]

But if Angelus was not hanging around then Darla would have made Spike into the new 'Angelus'

Unless Darla was with Angelus. Besides after Angelus goes off, and before, Darla show's pretty much no interest in Spike as a person at all. So I don't think she would have ever made him the new "Angelus"

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Unless Darla was with Angelus. Besides after Angelus goes off, and before, Darla show's pretty much no interest in Spike as a person at all. So I don't think she would have ever made him the new "Angelus"

That's because she had Angelus and after Angelus left he had already 'made' Spike so he was tolerable to her. That's why he (William the Vampire) wanted nothing to do with them at first and wanted to lure Dru away from them.. so that he could remain who he was; with Dru and his mum.

 

[Wildfly]

Dru was molded by Angel, she craved pain and missed things only Angel could supply.
Without Angel teaching Spike how to be a proper monster and challenging him he'd still would have to find ways to impress her. He isn't stupid, he'd find slayers or other things to kill to woe Dru. Besides he has his own demon that craves destruction and carnage.
Let's not equal Spike being sentimental and romantic with Spike being harmless.

Dru had a thing killing kids and Spike had absolutely no qualms hunting with her in orphanages. Complaining that Angel made him a monster is deluding himself.
Angel just gave him the intensive course, he'd have reached similar results in no time.

 

[bespangeled]

Yeah I do agree that Angelus and Dre had profound inflences on Spike. I think than the characters days as William is important to what Spike becomes too though, as it explains why he is a much more sensitive and melodramatic vampire at times.

Darla said it - who we are defines who we become. Actually William was far more sedate. But he had all the sensitivity and melodrama he needed to be a good poet. Sadly, he lacked the talent.

So without Angelus I think Spike would've been different. I think he thrived on having to prove himself against a father/brother figure like that (he clearly didn't have a strong father figure in his human life) and I think that explains part of why the Angelus/Spike dynamic is so interesting.

Angelus gave him the constant message that he wasn't good enough, which was what William had carried all his life. I agree, he used that to train Spike just as he use pain to train Dru. It's why I see them as having a sexual relationship. There is no way in hell, in a demonic setting, that the Alpha male is not going to dominate the Beta sexually. Of course, the Beta is equally dominant in that it is he who controls the pleasure. Or so I've been told by someone in that sort of relationship.

But if Angelus was not hanging around then Darla would have made Spike into the new 'Angelus'

Not the right material - Angel was filled with anger before he was changed, and his anger manifested in Angelus. Spike was filled with insecurity and emotion - he tried to become the opposite of William.

That's because she had Angelus and after Angelus left he had already 'made' Spike so he was tolerable to her. That's why he (William the Vampire) wanted nothing to do with them at first and wanted to lure Dru away from them.. so that he could remain who he was; with Dru and his mum.

I love Dru - You want to bring your mum with us? As a snack?

Dru was molded by Angel, she craved pain and missed things only Angel could supply.
Without Angel teaching Spike how to be a proper monster and challenging him he'd still would have to find ways to impress her. He isn't stupid, he'd find slayers or other things to kill to woe Dru. Besides he has his own demon that craves destruction and carnage.
Let's not equal Spike being sentimental and romantic with Spike being harmless.

Yes - but Harmony also killed for the years between getting sired and working for W&H - not harmless (pun intended) either. I agree that cosseting Dru, raiding orphanages and picking up the occasional street urchin would definitely have been part of daily life. I don't think killing slayers was to impress Dru. In fact, I think it was to impress (his inner) Angelus. He proved he was good enough, even better than Angelus. And he wanted the best fight possible.

My question isn't whether Spike would be harmless (dammit - that word again!) but would he be Spike as we know him. Would he have thrown himself into orgies of carnage, thinking it was a party? It's not whether he would be a monster but what sort of monster he would be. Harmony - having been a mass murderer - is also a monster, but a different sort of monster. The one thing that she and Spike seem to have in common is that they both have an unusual amount of humanity left - though Harmony has far more and is more functional in a human setting. That's my question right there - since Spike blamed his becoming a monster (and I'm assuming that isn't just killing to feed) on Angelus - would he still be Spike without the effort Angelus put into making him a monster

Dru had a thing killing kids and Spike had absolutely no qualms hunting with her in orphanages. Complaining that Angel made him a monster is deluding himself.
Angel just gave him the intensive course, he'd have reached similar results in no time.

It could well be - though I really think a lot of what he did to become who he is was done to impress or refute Angelus. Yes, living with Dru would have put him well beyond the Harmony stage - but I don't think it would have made him "second only to Angelus". Dru had the need to be cossetted and cared for - and William was a sucker for that. I see that as having been part of his life with his mum, a human trait that he carried over. But the Spike we see with Dru, before Angelus starts to show him his place and teach him to be a monster, is very different from the vampire he became, IMO

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Angel was filled with anger before he was changed, and his anger manifested in Angelus. Spike was filled with insecurity and emotion - he tried to become the opposite of William.

Liam the Vampire became Angelus with the assistance of Darla. Yes, he had a natural proclivity towards- rambunctiousness, but that is that what Darla cultivated. Now I think it's safe to say to William followed womens lead and did what he could to please them, so it would stand to reason that again with Darla's shaping and molding him Spike would be more Angel-like and less William the Vampire so Angelus or no Angelus would not matter in the long run. Just little character nuances. Angelus had a flair for the dramatic which Darla did not and Spike inherited that, but as a whole I dont think there would be much difference who 'trained' him.

 

[bespangeled]

Liam the Vampire became Angelus with the assistance of Darla. Yes, he had a natural proclivity towards- rambunctiousness, but that is that what Darla cultivated. Now I think it's safe to say to William followed womens lead and did what he could to please them, so it would stand to reason that again with Darla's shaping and molding him Spike would be more Angel-like and less William the Vampire so Angelus or no Angelus would not matter in the long run. Just little character nuances. Angelus had a flair for the dramatic which Darla did not and Spike inherited that, but as a whole I dont think there would be much difference who 'trained' him.

But Angelus tried to train Spike into being a mini-me, and Spike was not one for the pre-show - the torture that resulted in completely breaking a person. He wanted fireworks and and generalized terror. It's more than possible that he wold have reacted the same way to Darla.

Dru needed Spike - Darla would have been more like Cecily which might have worked if Dru wasn't in the picture. But Spike had ample sex and validation from a woman he adored. I think that he and Darla would have simply clashed. Honestly, I suspect Darla would have simply staked him.

 

[white avenger]

Forget the obvious fact that, with no Angelus, there would have been no Dru to turn William in the first place. Assume that Darla turned Dru, then Dru turned William. Fledgling vampire William would still be enthralled by the beautiful vampire who unbound him from life's mortal existence, letting loose the inner monster that lurks in the hearts of all of us. What we would be left with is Jonathan from "Superstar," only without the soul to at least guide him down the "right" path. He would be the Champion, Defender, and Lover of his Dark Princess (somebody key the theme song from "Robin Hood, Prince Of Thieves," here) He would go beyond any logical extreme to be the man (monster) who she wanted him to be, because Dru was the inspiration for everything that William The Bloody ever was. Certainly, a lot of what he did was to either impress or one up Angelus, but I seriously doubt that Angelus' absence would have made Spike any less of a monster. In fact, without Angelus' constant domination and abuse, Spike might have been even more evil than he actually was. In fact, he might have actually been more evil, more cruel, and more ruthless that Angelus ever was, simply because that was what Dru would want him to be.

Also remember, it was Angelus who chose to avoid open conflict whenever possible, preferring torture and intimidation to perform a "good kill" Spike was a Viking Berserker, blood drunk, a lover of fist and fang action. Make him the leader of the group, and he might very well have been the most terrifying vampire of the 19th Century.

 

[bespangeled]

In fact, without Angelus' constant domination and abuse, Spike might have been even more evil than he actually was. In fact, he might have actually been more evil, more cruel, and more ruthless that Angelus ever was, simply because that was what Dru would want him to be.

Also remember, it was Angelus who chose to avoid open conflict whenever possible, preferring torture and intimidation to perform a "good kill" Spike was a Viking Berserker, blood drunk, a lover of fist and fang action. Make him the leader of the group, and he might very well have been the most terrifying vampire of the 19th Century.

But is this what Dru wanted - what she would actively seek from him? She wasn't there when he killed either slayer, so she didn't want to watch. In fact, it appeared she had no idea what he was off doing until after she found him.I take from that that Spike did this on his own for his own reasons. Given the conversation they had in the mine, when Angelus told him he would be killed by the slayer, I think that those fights were in order to prove to Angelus what he could do.

Yes, Spike was a berserker - but I think it was simply because he needed to be his own vamp, to get out from under Angelus's thumb. I also think his demon may have had ADHD 😀

With Dru I suspect he would have been a child predator because we know this is what Dru loved. Still, I am not averse to thinking that he might very well have been the most terrifying vampire of the 19th Century😀

 

[GoSpuffy]

Angelus was the worst of all vampires and Spike was his apprentice. Spike would have been evil without him but Angelus taught him the tricks of the trade, how to win fights, how to throw blows. Spike might not have lived as long without all the things that Angelus taught him. Spike was a monster but Angelus made him a successful monster.