Wolf, Ram and Hart

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Kindred

Permanent state of confusion...
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Well, I don't know about anyone else, but in Shells, when Illyria said "Wolfram & Hart" it sounded an awful lot like she actually said "Wolf, Ram and Hart".

Anyway, as I'm sure so many of you have noticed, the Trionic books in Pylea were represented by a Wolf, Ram and a Hart... I'm guessing there's some kind of connetion here... Maybe it's just evil.

Anyway, I bring this up because it occured to me that maybe the "goat" on the seal of Danzalthar wasn't really a goat, but a ram.

What are your thoughts on this?

I posted this here because it contains some (minimal) Angel S5 spoilers.
 
XAngelusX said:
What's the seal of Danzalthar?
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Wasn't it the great big seal thingy under the new Sunnydale High? Where the First and its cronies were skulking.
 
Mr. Pointy said:
Wasn't it the great big seal thingy under the new Sunnydale High? Where the First and its cronies were skulking.
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Indeed it was. But i was wondering... Is there some master all inclusive plan for evil at work?
 
Kindred said:
Indeed it was. But i was wondering... Is there some master all inclusive plan for evil at work?
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Yea - that's the impression I was getting, especially if Angel was allowed to run its proper course. I was hoping that Joss et al would've brought together all these little nuggets in one mega-Slayerverse finale/crossover event - setting everything up for Fray: The Series (wishful thinking...) It would be interesting to get a look at the show's bible😉
 
Yeah, I'd like a look at that bible too.

As far as the Wolf, Ram and Hart thing in Pylea goes, I'm just going from memory, but the impression I got was it was just supposed to suggest Wolfram & Hart had connections in other dimensions.

In order to see a Wolfram & Hart connection to the seal, wouldn't you also have to find a Wolf and a Deer symbol, or allusion somewhere?

The impression I got from that goat symbol was it reminded me of satanic symbols I've seen. Let's ignore that and go with the possible Wolfram & Hart connection for a sec though and see where it leads us.

The seal was meant to act as kind of a firewall between Hell and earthly reality. If it was put there by Wolfram & Hart, it would imply Wolfram & Hart had an interest in controling The First Evil's access to this world. The first evil is the essence of all evil, and therefore the overwhelming presence in Hell.

In Shells Illyria tells us Wolfram & Hart were small on the level of the vampire in her time. The First Evil is as old as time itself. Wolfram and Hart would have to have taken an interest in controling The First sometime between the time of Illyria and present day as W&H wouldn't have had the power to create the seal during the time of the demons. The question would become, why would they do this, and what is the beef W&H has with the First. Aren't they both Evil?
 
Remember, Wolfram and Hart had a lock on Illyria's army-could that be similar to the Seal of Danthalzar being a lock on the First Evil's army of Turok-Hans?

Sounds like Wolfram and Hart has taken over ALL the evil, if that's true. Sounds like a huge battle is (or at least should be) ahead.
 
I just thought of something, I think is cool.

The Seal is called the Seal of Danzalthar, right?

OK, assuming the ram in the symbol is the ram of Wolf Ram and Hart, wouldn't this mean the ram is representive of a specific demon - Danzalthar?

Illyria tells us Wolfram & Hart go back to the time of the demons. Therefore they or it would have to be demons or a demon.

If the ram is Danzalthar, there would have to be 2 other demons with specific names such as Danzalthar.

Jacklyn's suggestion makes sense, so now you're talking about 3 specific demons vying for dominion over evil on earth. 3 demons, 3 potential champions with otherworldly power (Angel, Spike, and Illyria). Now that would be interesting. Can't you just see Angel, Spike, and Illyria striding down the corridor to the White Room for the final battle?

Thanks Kindred. This is fun.
 
Hi all, first post here about Wolf Ram and heart i think they are a magor player in the evil but not for sure that they are the sourse of all evil, well we will see we just have to wait 4 weeks for any answers arrg.
 
I think that Kindred's point is indeed interesting. The name Wolfram & Hart suits a modern law firm well, but it may be a variation to Wolf, Ram and Hart, which would be the original name of this evil.
 
The impression I got from that goat symbol was it reminded me of satanic symbols I've seen. Let's ignore that and go with the possible Wolfram & Hart connection for a sec though and see where it leads us.
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Wasn't the goat a common sacrifice in satanic rituals?

But if we do go with the possible connections, I've often wondered if Wolfram and Hart was The First's way of influencing the human world, a tie to the world....at first The First may have used it, but either discarded it because it was too weak and couldn't become powerful enough, or The First kept it weak to stop the firm from getting it's own ideas, but somehow it got power and revolted against The First, it wouldn't be difficult because its not like The First could physically stop them, so now they are seperate....and it may explain why Wolfram and Hart doesn't like the First.
Just a theory, I don't know.

But I've always wonder WHY a wolf, ram and hart? How are these symbolic to the law firm? Is there a certain meaning behind these? Is it ever explained? Maybe what Allycat said is true....I would like to really find out...possibly this season we will...

nerd4hire also has a very good idea, but I doubt it..although I like the theory!
 
Dammit - I wish I'd seen all the current eps you guys have already had. It sounds like Joss will be giving us some big answers...I'm trying to stay spoiler-free btw but sometimes you have to look...
 
Here's something that suggests that the Ram and the Goat are representative of a union of some kind or another: Ram and Goat

And here's an interesting article I found about The Zoroastrians and their "Book of God" and it's references to the Wolf, Ram and Hart (read all the way down to the end):Book of God

And finally, here is some info about what Zoroastrianism is: Zoroastrianism
 
About the Senior Partners. did Angel actually kill one in season 2??

Also, if Wolf, Ram and Hart actually refer to 3 demons, could they be the Senior Partners??
 
Liam said:
Also, if Wolf, Ram and Hart actually refer to 3 demons, could they be the Senior Partners??
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Well yeah, if the goat on the Seal of Danzalthar was connected to the ram in Wolf, Ram, and Hart, then that's where the theory led, but Damn it doesn't Work.

I forgot to consider the obvious.

A ram is not a goat. A ram is a male sheep. You can have male and female goats. Neither one is a ram. A goat is an entirely different animal. I just remembered that. That sucks... I was having fun with that theory.
 

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All I know is SOMEONE destroyed Illyria's temple....and that's still up for grabs. Wolf, Ram, Hart, anyone?
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Actually I was more under the impression that it had just rotted away overtime. The feel I got was that all her forces had been "frozen in time" *turned to stone* so that they could be there to serve when Illyria returned. Only Illyria's return wasnt for millions of years instead of the potentialy couple thousand he/she/it was counting on. Over those years it all just decayed. Became dust, it had taken to long and time had destroyed it all. The fact that "only Illyria can open a portal to it" adds credibility to this idea.

Also something to consider. Illyria knows who the Wolf, Ram and the hart are. She may be able to add some incite for the fang gang as to what they are, what there intentions are, and how to destroy them. Just a thought.
 
Well as already stated Wolf, Ram and Hart are probably the senior partners. It doesnt sound improbable at all and it is said they exist in different dimensions. We have never seen the Senior Partners and no it wasnt a senior partner that Angel killed it was Hollander, he was just a President at Wolfram and Hart.

Illyria said that Wolf, Ram and Hart were little below the vampire in her time. Maybe it was THEM who sealed away all the ancient demons? Since they sealed her temple it isnt entirely unthinkable that they did this with everyone.

Might not be coincidence either that Illyria shows up now, and that they were taken to Wolfram and Hart and employed. Currently, Wesley, Gunn, Lorne and Fred are taken out of play. Wesley is a mental case, Gunn is wounded, Lorne had a emotional breakdown and Fred is well..A shell - meanwhile Angel doesn't know what to do and Spike is probably the only one keeping a cold head at the moment (pun intended). So they could be planning something. ::dk::
 
Razekiel said:
and no it wasnt a senior partner that Angel killed it was Hollander, he was just a President at Wolfram and Hart.
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Ooh, someone got a name wrong, and it wasn't me for a change. That's a treat.

Actually it isn't Hollander. It's Holland - Holland Manners, and he isn't the president when he gets killed, he's division head of Special Projects. And just for the perfect nitpicking hat-trick; Angel doesn't kill him. Darla does (or at least she's about to bite into him at the end of the wine cellar scene in Reunion).

Sorry about that. I couldn't resist. Usually it's me who's getting his nits picked. I'm still reeling over getting caught one time saying "Great googly woogly", instead of the more Xander-correct "googly moogly". Then there was "Jordan Levinson". The boss caught me on that one.

Too bad you weren't around this thread earlier. You could have caught me confusing a ram with a goat. ::grad::
 
nerd4hire said:
Ooh, someone got a name wrong, and it wasn't me for a change. That's a treat.

Actually it isn't Hollander. It's Holland - Holland Manners, and he isn't the president when he gets killed, he's division head of Special Projects. And just for the perfect nitpicking hat-trick; Angel doesn't kill him. Darla does (or at least she's about to bite into him at the end of the wine cellar scene in Reunion).

Sorry about that. I couldn't resist. Usually it's me who's getting his nits picked. I'm still reeling over getting caught one time saying "Great googly woogly", instead of the more Xander-correct "googly moogly". Then there was "Jordan Levinson". The boss caught me on that one.

Too bad you weren't around this thread earlier. You could have caught me confusing a ram with a goat. ::grad::
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Lol well thanks for correcting me 😛 Nah Angel doesnt technically kill him but he practically sentenced him to death. I should rewatch all of S2 soon, lol been a year since I saw it last 🙁
 
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