Wolfram & Hart or Jasmine

Who would you side with?

  • Wolfram & Hart

    Votes: 22 84.6%

  • Jasmine

    Votes: 4 15.4%
  • Total voters
    26
N

Nikkolas

Glory/Dawn Shipper.......
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
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Fort Worth, TX
Ya know, before Jasmine was "born", all the talk of "why would this new Big Bad try to destroy WR&H?!" came back to the same answer.

It wanted to be the only evil in town.

Upon Jasmine's birth, this doesn't seem to be necessarily the case. Her world surely isn't going to be as cut-throat as theirs.

But I'd still take Wolfram & Hart.

The answer lies in honesty and what is real. I'm not opposed to some sort of mostly benign enslaved world because human beings can't bring each other peace. Free will negates that possibility. But the fact is, Jasmine's holier-than-thou attitude sickened me.

It's as if as soon as she came about and all the happy faces were seen, a lot of people (fans) forgot about what was needed to make her live. Thousands of people were killed. Not even counting the people in Wolfram & Hart's LA branch that The Beast slaughtered, there was tons of innocents dying during the eclipse when vampires roamed free.

Do innocents die when Wolfram and Hart is around? Most assuredly. But they at least seem to acknowledge this. That, for me, makes them better than Jasmine who just kind of seeps it under the rug.

Holland Manners didn't care about innocent people dying...
jasmine said s she cared but I don't think she did. It was either her order or no order.

So yeah... That's why I think the Powers-That-Be suck and Jasmine sucks. I'd have sided with WR&H in this instance. Heck, even Mesektet (the little girl member of the Ra-Tet, supposedly all evil) was trying to helP Angel and co. stop the true enemy that was Jasmine.
 
I don’t think we have to side with Wolfram and Hart or Jasmine. I don’t think it’s an either or deal.

W&H’s power comes from accepting the world as it is. Now champions like say Angel or Buffy don’t accept the world as it is. Having a hope for a better world is NOT the same as being deluded from reality.

Now for arguments sake, let’s say that Jasmine had good intentions, even if she went about the wrong way of doing it. Now like Angel etc, she saw things wrong with the world and wanted to do something about it. Now as Lilah says, world peace comes at a price and in Jasmine’s eyes it was a fair price. What you could minimise the deaths and occurred and make the deaths that do occur, less horrible?

In her eyes to let mankind continue as it is, was a fate worse than death.

Angel said the price was too high but he also doesn’t accept W&H’s view, which is not only to accept the world as it is but to corrupt and destroy one soul at a time. Preferably the world would be better without either of them based upon the principle that a) corruption of mankind is wrong and accepting it, when you can do something about is also and b) that taking away freedom is a price too high to pay for peace.

Jasmine argues that Angel’s principles are abstract. In her world, even if from the outside, you didn’t agree, from the inside, you’d be happy. The world would be in essence, real, just different. The world used to be a demon realm and demons see it as their world still but humans don’t complain that world is now not a demon realm. Jasmine cannot understand why based on the idea that free will is good is worth ending paradise over. Rape, murder, depression are all things we mostly don’t like but Angel was choosing that world over paradise for what? For freedom? Free will is only in accordance with our nature, which Jasmine was looking to change. And it wouldn’t even be a lie, because if Jasmine succeeded, her world would be the new reality.

Now Jasmine did say she would destroy the world after her powers were stripped, not it’s possible that she is a power hungry monster, but it could be she’d rather destroy the world than see it drown in it’s own blood, maybe it’s a little of both.

Now I’m not actually arguing that we have to accept Jasmine’s world order but, by helping others or not accepting the world, champions also don’t accept Wolfram and Hart’s world. In the world Angel visualises, we have our own choices but what’s the point of having our own choices if we accept W&H’s world. We might as well live in Jasmine’s world, at least we’d be guaranteed to be happy…
 
I absolutely would have sided with Jasmine. Angel IMO was the true Big Bad of the season... the selfish git. 😛

I philosophically don't believe in free will, anyway... and once you're happy, well, you're happy, 'nuff said. Yes, the contrast between the Beast/Jasmordelia/"birth pangs" part of the season and the shiny happy people part is jarring - but that's more due to a meta level of on-the-spot writing changes, I certainly see it as psychologically sound within the verse. People in Jasminia are absolutely happy, and they can't even think about questioning her... so of course, a couple thousand innocents who died "in the bad old days" are irrelevant once she's there. Besides, siding against Jasmine won't bring the dead people back to life anymore, either.
 
Ojuice5001
Ojuice5001
[No message]
I know there were huge changes in the writing of this season but does anybody know what the stupid icky Jasmine arc replaced? I would love to know.
 
I believe it was originally just that Cordelia was evil. She wasn't controlled or anything.

Then she got pregnant IRL and so they had to bring in Jasmine to explai it all.
 
Wolfram & Hart, not even close.

I know that they're evil and all, but Jasmine was just terrible. Angel made the right call.
 
Well since I want to be a lawyer I guess I'll go with Wolfram & Hart maybe they'll let me intern there 😛
 
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