Wood Should Have Killed Spike

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying there, WereDog, but if you're saying that it's wrong not to kill someone because of love--if you're saying that it's wrong not to kill someone out of compassion... well... I haven't read any spoilers, but I have some (very vague) ideas in my head about how the series finale might go and you could be in for a few surprises with a view like that.

Remember the season 5 episode Intervention. That's the one where Buffy goes on her vision quest and sees the First Slayer. Before the First Slayer gets to the cryptic "death is your gift" line, she says, "You are full of love. You love with all of your soul. It's brighter than the fire ... blinding. That's why you pull away from it."

IMHO, as Buffy pulls away from that and becomes hard, she's losing her way. It sounds horribly corny I know, but it's likely that the only way to stop The First evil is with happy-shiny-glowy love. I mean--do you really think guns and violence are going to do it? 🙂
 
Razekiel, I realize that at some period in time that just about everyone in the Scooby Gang has been dangerous. Do I think they should have been killed? Depends on the person and the situation. Buffy has been really inconsistant in the way she does the whole Slayer bit when it comes to her friends and with her it seems to depend more on who she likes better at the time. The thing is, they are at war now. With such an unpredictable danger around like Spike, they should have dusted him or AT LEAST kept him locked up. Not doing this was just total stupidity on the part of Buffy. They aren't in a situation where they can afford to take moronic chances.

WyrdDemonHunter, I also realize that all demons are not bad in the Buffyverse. That wasn't the point of my equation. The point was that Spike thinks he can dismiss his actions as him just playing his part, why then can Wood not do the same? Spike was a demon and dangerous. We don't see Buffy asking every demon "Hey, you're evil right?" before she slays them do we? She sees a demon, sees it's a danger, she slays. Why should Wood do differently?



"Now you could argue that Buffy shoud've just staked Angel and maybe you're right, but remember that he's also helped save the world at least a couple times and if he'd been dust he wouldn't have been there so the world might have ended."

-WyrdDemonHunter



I do think that Buffy should have dusted Angel immediately when he became evil. So he saved the world afterward? What's your point? Even an evil demon can save the world. The Mayor in ascended form could have killed a big nasty demon somewhere down the line that may have obliterated the planet just so that the Mayor-turned-demon could continue his tyrannical rule over Sunnydale. Should Buffy have let him live just in case? Probably not.
 
What I mean is, you said that you shouldn't kill Spike because Dark Will, Oz and Anya didn't get killed but what I'm saying is some of the members didn't try to.
Anyways,
I'll have to check that ep out.
 
Happy: I'm not sure that we have much left to argue about. 🙂

I totally agree with you that Buffy's been inconsistent in the way that she deals with "threats" especially when those threats were people that are close to her. Up until this season, most of those inconsistencies (except maybe Angel) could be justified.

Now about Angel--maybe he's not the best example. Back when he first became Angelus, yeah Buffy probably should've staked him immediately. She had one really good chance--there's one specific time when she had him and let him go. That was right after they defeated the Judge. Of course, the reason why Buffy didn't do it then was she still had the memory of Angel, her first lover. Kind of difficult to filter out the emotions there. After that, Angelus made sure to keep himself scarce until the end of the world deal.

I was trying to make a point there that it's not always so easy to "play God" deciding who'll live and who'll die because things aren't always so clear cut. But it appears you already get that so... nothing to argue about there.

One thing though: I disagree with Buffy and Giles regarding how to deal with The First. IMHO, dealing with this as a war is doomed to fail. That seems (to me) like a very American idea--"War on Drugs", "War on Terrorism", etc. And it's just as stupid now as it ever was. You can't expect to beat The First evil of the universe by declaring war on it! How crazy is that? That's like declaring war on an ocean or a mountain or something. I could be wrong but, to me, the only thing wars are good for is gaining territory/resources and killing people. They don't make people not do drugs anymore; they don't make people not be terrorists anymore, and they don't make evil go away. How the hell can you fight a war against evil itself?

I don't know exactly how you defeat The First, but I'll guarentee you that warring with it is not the answer.

P.S. About wars:
Okay--one thing. Before everyone jumps all over me, I would like to acknowlege that there are certain times when going to war is the only solution. It should always be viewed as a last resort though--a self-defence kind of thing. I'm not sure where the idea came from that wars are a good way to solve problems in general, but I hope the idea goes away some day.
 
Actually waging war on a mountain would make more sense. With enough explosives I'm sure you could level a mountain. How do you war with something that doesn't have physical form? That's one thing that made me wonder. Buffy said she needs Spike because he's a strong fighter. So she thinks he can help kick the arse of something that's essentially arse-less?
 
Well, here comes my 2 €-cents 🙂

I do not think Wood was right to try and kill Spike, nor should have done so. One thing that seems to be overlooked, is that Spike got his soul especially for Buffy, so she now feels that it's her responsibility to keep him on the straight track, not very unlike the relationship between Angel and Faith. One could argue that Faith is still dangerous, as she's exactly the same person she was when she was evil, but I doubt many people would consider the option that she needs to be killed.

As for comparing Spike to Angel, they are indeed, very different. Angel regrets the things he has done, and is trying to atone for it all. Spike on the other hand, accepts the fact that he was an evil vampire and as such did evil things. He's not going to apologize for anything he's done, and it's what he does or doesn't do now that matters. Killing Wood's mom was, as he said, part of the game. Slayer tries to kill vampires, vampires try to kill Slayer. It's the way things go and Spike knows that.

Spike's death would have seriously demoralized Buffy, it would have completely killed off her relationship to both Giles and Wood, leaving the whole gang in a worse position than with Spike around. On the other hand, Spike killing Wood would have been equally bad, as it would have meant that Spike has no problems with having a conscience, although Wood turning Spike evil and trying to kill him certainly wasn't a friendly act. And so what if Spike said he'd kill Wood if he did anything again? Buffy said to Wood that she would let Spike, that doesn't make her suddenly an evil mastermind 🙂

Originally posted by WyrdDemonHunter
One thing though: I disagree with Buffy and Giles regarding how to deal with The First. IMHO, dealing with this as a war is doomed to fail.
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But it is one, isn't it? Both the First and Buffy are gathering an army, preparing for a big battle to come between their forces. An occasional strike from the First (lo àœbervamp), counteracted by a strike from Buffy (bye àœbervamp).
 
I think Spike bit Wood, he got very close to his neck, if not actually reaching his neck. His line before it about not being controlled by anyone before he would kill Wood was also great. What I would have liked was Spike siring Wood, but not finding out about it for an episode or two, that would have been cool. It kind of can't happen now though after Wood was leaning on that wall full of crosses. If someone would have had to die though, I would have preferred Wood to die. Obviously, Spike has been built up more, and him killing people would of course piss off others. It was a damn shame the line where Giles tells Buffy that he killed Ben was cut out, I would have loved to see that.
 
Originally posted by DanielKurland
It was a damn shame the line where Giles tells Buffy that he killed Ben was cut out, I would have loved to see that.
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Was Giles actually suppose to admit it in this episode ("LMPTM")?
 
If Wood is willing to kill Spike out of vengeance, who is one of Buffy's most valuable soldiers in this battle, wouldn't that make him a liability as well? I understand that Wood doesn't see the soulded vampire, he only sees the killer of his mother. Fact is, the demon within him killed Wood's mother, not the soul. Problem is, if you stake him you take out both. Killing Spike is a double edged sword, if you kill him you may be killing a liablity. You may also be killing an intricate part of defeating the First.

Giles logic is flawed just like Buffy's. There are no perfect decisions in this world, but killing your friends sure as hell isn't going to get you anywhere. Giles was willing to accept that Angelus killed Jenny Calendar, not Angel. Why can't he give that same acceptance to Spike?

You say Spike isn't seeking redemption? Right ok... The whole dam point of him having his soul returned was about redemption. It was about the wrong doings he did his entire time as a demon. Him hurting the one he loves just topped it off.
 
if i were wood...i would've done one thing different...i would've got the job done....perhaps a suicide scenario....that is how i would honor my mom....none of this queer crosses on the wall or modified metallic knucks...

i didn't really like buffy throughout the series...too self-rightgeous...thinks her gift is a burden instead of a blessing...after this ep...she deserves to get an ass whooping...
 
Both Spike and Wood were assets and liabilities. Neither of them were entirely stable, both were strong demon fighters.

What Spike had in his favor was his long history as both ally and adversary with Buffy and Company. And I think it was clear from the early part of the season that because of his new soul, he did feel remorse for his past acts. (I think this didn't come across when he was with Wood because he really dislikes Wood.)

Wood is still a dark horse, and people with long-term obsessions make me nervous. I wouldn't be confident in his judgement if it comes to staking or not-staking Spike.

As it turned out, it was just as well Wood didn't kill Spike, since during the the process of the fight Spike got rid of the trigger.

As for Giles, I think he has his own agenda when it comes to both Spike and Wood, which is why he agreed to stall Buffy so quickly. Unfortunately, he was juggling too much and now he's endangered his relationship with Buffy.
 
Re: Re: Wood Should Have Killed Spike

Originally posted by WyrdDemonHunter
Actually, I don't think that the actions of any of Spike, Buffy, Wood, or Giles were very good in this episode. 🙂 Instead of trying to figure out which one of them was right I'm more inclined to believe that all of them were at least partly wrong. ...All in all, a pretty good day for The First.
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WyrdDemonHunter, I have to agree with you here. I thought this episode was awesome because it really made viewers question their own takes on morality -- all four characters you mentioned had some good arguments but also acted irrationally at one point or another. It was near impossible to decide who was "right."

Originally posted by Happy
There is nothing wrong with vengence, it all depends on how you go about it.
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Happy, have you ever heard the saying "two wrongs don't make a right"? Hurting or killing people, no matter what they did, only adds to the problem of violence. It'll only make things worse in the long run.

Originally posted by Happy
Buffy has been really inconsistant in the way she does the whole Slayer bit when it comes to her friends and with her it seems to depend more on who she likes better at the time.
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Also, you seem to keep trying to make this whole issue of morality totally black and white, which it plainly isn't -- not in Buffy, not in the real world. One of the main reasons I love watching Buffy, in fact, is because they choose to make everything grey, which is more truthful and more entertaining than a pure good guys vs. pure bad guys show where the rules are perfectly clear and laid out for you.
 
I fully admit that Giles and Wood were wrong, I just don't think you can blame them without blaming Buffy as well. Their decicion was in reaction to hers. Her inability to see Spike as the danger that he was. I have no doubts that if Buffy was willing to keep Spike chained up that Giles would never had resorted to this tactic. He simply saw hmself with no other alternative. Buffy forced his hand and now she blames him for attempting to deal with a problem she essentially created. Do I agree with Giles' methods? No. Do I think Buffy was allowing him to have a whole lot of alternatives? Also no.

Buffy was not able to deal with Spike and accept that he possed the danger that he did. She could have, and should have, kept him chained to that wall. She didn't. Was Giles supposed to let her get everyone killed? It was just a matter of time before the First used Spike, with his little trigger, and someone ended up dead. Let's not forget that Giles DID try to help Spike. The stone was something Giles brought to the table in an attempt to cure Spike. Spike however was unwilling to deal with his problems and Buffy still was not chaining him up. Giles did what he thought he had to do.

As well, I should say that I agree that 'two wrongs don't make a right', but Buffy couldn't possibly resort to such reasoning. Let's keep Faith and Anya in mind. Buffy is no less guilty of trying to right wrongs with more wrongs than anyone else is.
 
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