Worst brainwasher (of the three)?

Most evil brainwasher (either personally or had it done)?

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Atren

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By worst i mean as in lowest, most despicable and etc. Monks created Dawn and altered lot of memory. Angel had it done for him by W&H resources to give Connor better life and Willow did it for her own reasons mostly. There was more than those three, but i am mostly interested in them 😛

So which is worst of the three?
 
I'd say Angel. His consistant mind-rape of the people he loved because he thought it was "for their own good" was completely unacceptable. The monks acted out of absolute necessety - the fate of the world depended on them. Willow, although not much better than Angel, was acting under an addiction. Perhaps not an excuse, but it's more understandable. She wasn't thinking clearly. Angel was. Every time.
 
I disagree Lindsey, babe.

I think Angel did it for a good reason.. He loved the people around him, and wanted them to have a better life, and if that involved forgetting about certain people, then so be it. I believe in the greater good. And, I wouldn't mind being able to forget about Connor...
My vote is for Willow, even if it was "addiction", I think she acted way worse than Angel, wicca or not, she didn't act like a friend.
 
I also think that Angel did it for good reason but again maybe it's cause I love Wesley so much and seeing him so depressed hurt me so much in s4 (although he did look hotter) and the brainwash at least made him love life again.

I think Willow was the worst mostly cause she violated the mind of the love of her life. Even under addiction how can you do that. I lived through addiction but I would have still never done something like this.

-Blaze-
 
I'm gonna say the monks. It was just unacceptable the way they attacked the minds of so many people for their own reasons. Maybe it was for their version of "good" but regardless they invaded the minds of A LOT of people
 
I don't go for qunatity, but for quality.

Even as an avid Willow fan I must say Willow was the worst. She mind-raped the woman she claimed to love (she did not love Tara when she was in her mojo junkie phase, though she clearly very much loved her before and after that), and did it for no other reason than to make herself feel better and escape negative consequences for herself due to her own actions.

Angel did so at least for the well-being of Connor (not a "good" thing to do, either, but more into the "dark gray" than Willow's utter pitch-blackness). I don't count IWRY as brainwash at all - he undid a day there, which is a different thing altogether IMO.

And the monks did their brainwash to save Earth and all of humanity, so the gray is much, much lighter there than in Angel's case, though still far from white.
 
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InsaneMystic said:
And the monks did their brainwash to save Earth and all of humanity, so the gray is much, much lighter there than in Angel's case, though still far from white.
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Actually Monks *PUT* Earth into danger. Instead of destroying an object they made it into living being. Would you hesitate to destroy some light bulb for example if it meant securing that hell god would not be able to use it? Or would you transform it into living being and send it to someone without asking them, furtheron brainwashing that someone along with everyone around them. Who knows what all did they change? Remember, Spike got feelings for Buffy after it, Hank was far worse after it, Anya suddenly forgot she could drive car after it, Willow magic thing developed after it.

In case have not figured it out, I voted monks. While Angel was perhaps grey area somewhat with Willow bit more bad, monks in my opinion were by far the worst.
 
I think Angel did it for a good reason.. He loved the people around him, and wanted them to have a better life, and if that involved forgetting about certain people, then so be it. I believe in the greater good. And, I wouldn't mind being able to forget about Connor...
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If Angel had done that to me, I would try to find some way to plunge a stake into his heart. One of the reasons why I dislike Angel as a character, is because he is a control freak who always find an excuse to manipulate or control others for "the greater good". I loathe people like that.


I don't count IWRY as brainwash at all - he undid a day there, which is a different thing altogether IMO.
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As far as I'm concerned, Angel got the Powers to commit psychic rape upon Buffy and others, on his behalf. He's guilty.
 
I think Willow was the worst. Both the monks and Angel had at least reasons 'for the greater good' for their actions. Of course it's questinable if they really should have had the power to just decide over others like that, but what they did came from the desire to help. Willow, on the other hand, was just selfishly interested in making her own life easier (with not having to deal with certain things).
 
Im guna go with Willow too. She was selfish and used the magic for her own gain, not for the good of others.
 
Atren said:
Who knows what all did they change? Remember, Spike got feelings for Buffy after it, Hank was far worse after it, Anya suddenly forgot she could drive car after it, Willow magic thing developed after it.
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LMAO. Sorry, but that reminds me way too much of the Next Gen Trek theory that explains away every plot blooper after "Brothers" by saying that it all only happened in Data's imagination (don't want to bore you with the details about the blooper in "Brothers" that spawned that theory in the first place. After all, this isn't a Trek forum. 😉 )
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LadyLavinia said:
As far as I'm concerned, Angel got the Powers to commit psychic rape upon Buffy and others, on his behalf. He's guilty.
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I'm not saying he's not guilty. In fact, it is the exact same mindset in which Angel had the Connor spell done and the IWRY day undone.

However, the two situations are markedly different. In IWRY, he has the day never to have happened in the first place, so no memories of ANYONE are ever altered. It's making life-altering decisions over other peoples' heads, yes, and that's a major consistent flaw of Angel's character. But no way in the world is it psychic rape.
 
This is such a tough choice but when it comes down to it and the greater good I think Angel's was the worst. Thats because of the repurcussions (sp?) it had when the spell was reversed. When Wesley smashed the box and it broke releasing their true memories about what happened with Connor completely mixed with the new ones. They all felt deceived by Angel for what he did and not telling them even though it was for Connor's best interests and to keep everyone safe.

Its totally different from how the monks put Dawn in to Buffy's life and those of her friends, although they weren't told they seemed to accept it more. Now thinking on it both of those had their pro's and their con's but to me Angels seems worse than the monks.
 
The Monks.

Willow affected one person on purpose and a small number by accident. When it was all over she payed the price and in time was forgiven. It says something that Tara returned to her of her own free will knowing exactly what Willow had done.

Angel violated the minds of those closest to him on more than one occasion and when they found out their trust in him was gone, his actions were worse than those of Willow and not forgotten or forgiven.

But the Monks, they changed the minds of every single person that Dawn would have met had she existed for as long as she was made to look, probably hundreds of minds at least, greatly altering vast amounts of the memories of those closest to her, Buffy in particular. It nearly ruined the Summers family bond and was a source of even greater suffering for Buffy and the most horrid twist, making the Key a child knowing full well what Glory would do to her, making the Key something Human so that it could suffer, in a form that would never allow Buffy to kill it without lifelong sorrow for her deeds. That is seriously messed up.
 
I'm going with Willow. True, what the monks did was seriously ****ed up, so it was a close one. But Willow altered the mind of someone she claimed to love, for nothing but her own gain. Because SHE didn't want to talk about things, Tara's mind would have to be, well, raped. As far as we know, the monks did what they did only once, wheras willow did it continuously.
Moreover, in a way, the monks gave a gift, by giving Dawn a life and a family as part of their brainwashy activities. And not just any family, probably the only family in the world able to fight off Glory.
 
Voted Willow... It was pure selfish based on an addiction. Couldnt be worst

Angel was kinda cruel too, but it was for Connor´s own good.. and it worked xD
And the Monk were genious xDDDD They saved the world, mostly. That´s a great excuse, I think.
 
I'm gonna go with the monks, even though all of them were wrong. While Willow and Angel's were both bad, in the end, they only affected a few people. The monks, on the other hand, were putting the entire world in jeopardy. From what I understand, they could have destroyed the key just as easily or at least turned it into something that could theoretically be killed, but instead, they made it a young, innocent human being that no one could bring themselves to harm. The very least they could have done was warn Buffy about the Key instead of just raping her and her friends' minds and completely changing their lives.
 
They were all rapings of the mind. Willows was the only one that was immensely selfish as apposed to just selfish.
 
I think Willow was the worst. Both the monks and Angel had at least reasons 'for the greater good' for their actions.
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The greater good? Are we to believe that it's okay to mind rape someone for the greater good? Are you kidding me?

Oh God. People will find any excuse to condone exerting one's will over another.
 
lets not forget about when Angel mind raped ('mind raped' lol, we do like to be sensational dont we!) Buffy in 'I Will remember you'. He was allowed to remember this unforgettable night while Buffy didnt get anything, all so that he could turn back into a vampire (which btw makes the entire shanshu idea ridiculous to the extreme).
 
LadyLavinia said:
The greater good? Are we to believe that it's okay to mind rape someone for the greater good? Are you kidding me?

Oh God. People will find any excuse to condone exerting one's will over another.
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Nobody said the action itself should be condoned, it's more about whether or not the motives behind it are understandable. It's not all black and white; even a judge in court will make a difference in their sentence according to the motive. If you steal something to feed your starving kid, you're quite likely to get a milder punishment than if you do it just for kicks... even though both thefts are illegal and will result in some kind of judicial consequence. (And I hope you agree that it's a good thing that such differentiation is done!)
 
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