Would Faith have been better off not coming to Sunnydale?

Willow Rosenberg

I might be just like you!
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Based on a tangent another thread has gone off on, I'd like to pose this question here. Do you think Faith was more negatively impacted because of her time in Sunnydale? Would she have been a better slayer had she not met Buffy?
 
yes odds are she would have been a better slayer had she not met buffy, but a better person? doubt it. like i said in the other thread, faith had to hit rock bottom before she could find and redefine herself and reach her full glory, her full potential. that would have never happened had she not met buffy and everything had gone downhill from there. so yes, she had to come to sunnydale. sometimes in life we have trials - many times in fact. sunnydale was faith's.
 
Wouldn't have Faith died earlier? She was hiding from that old vampire with the scar and she was SCARED. She would have ended up like some scardey-cat slayer... :cat: or something. :tongue05:
 
W
Wicca
really don't think so.
Um, you mean if Faith would have been a better person "today"..? I mean, I'm quite sure she would have been a better person, and felt better about everything, in the end of season 3. I mean Buffy and everything that happened in Sunnydale made her feel pretty bad about herself, and (duh) end up in a coma... But guess that's not the question. I'd say yes, she probably would, in some ways, but she wouldn't at all have been the cool, "strong" Faith we've seen.. if she hadn't met Buffy and dealt with Kakistos.. Good or bad, she learnt a lot from being in Sunnydale, hanging out with, and fighting with, Buffy. (Eh, sorry to be posting this, I'll answer this tomorrow, more seriously (when I'm less drunk and less tired...).)
 
I can't seem to make up my mind, to be honest. I was really sure about it before... It depends - ultimately, I think her experiences in Sunnydale have helped her become a more complete, and in the end content, person than she would have been otherwise. But on the other hand - well, there's a whole lot of murder (not necessarily limited to what we've seen on screen) to account for, and I do think that Faith probably wouldn't have turned to the stabbing side of the force had she never met Buffy.

Faith was right, they aren't supposed to exist together - they're too similar to remain at a safe distance, and too different to be safe around each other. If Faith's life had one singular purpose, one identity that was hers alone from the start, she likely would have never fallen. But she would have been Kendra - a Slayer, not a person. If Buffy is driven by love, Faith is driven by rage, but either way, they're both big on emotion. If Faith had suppressed that passion, she would have remained, technically, a white hat, and nobody would have been able to tell the difference. She just wouldn't have been the Faith we know today and it's just occurred to me I'm about to start paraphrasing Angel's Passion monologue.

I guess it just depends on whether you consider Faith's self realisation and rebirth as a blue team berserker more valuable than the lives she took. Are we better people based on our actions or our thoughts?

"Sociopath" is a term used mostly in connection with Wesley, but let's borrow it for a moment for our Alterna-Faith. Alterna-Faith is the only Slayer in her world. Without having Buffy to run to in F, H&T, we'll assume that she's found some other way to survive Kakistos. Further to that, we'll have to assume that she did it single handedly. Alterna-Faith is the one girl, alone against - you know that part I'm sure- but the point is, over time, she'll develop a big-honking superiority complex not unlike a certain blonde did as she got older. Faith shows symptoms of such a complex in Consequences, but it's important to remember that her persuasive argument to the effect that Slayers are morally exempt was for her own benefit moreso than Buffy's.

Sociopaths are "very egocentric individuals that lack a sense of personal responsibility and morality. They may be impulsive, manipulative, reckless, quarrelsome, and consistent liars. Sociopaths are usually unable to sustain relationships and have a total lack of remorse for their actions. The sociopath may also be very prone to aggressive, hostile, and sometimes violent behavior. This aggression may or may not lead to criminal behavior and often takes the form of domestic violence. Along with these other actions, sociopaths often engage in self-destructive behavior such as alcoholism or addiction to drugs.

It is believed that a constant state of boredom and the lack of ability to truly feel deep emotion are what lead to this random misbehavior or thrill seeking. This form of psychopaths "can basically be thought of as emotional shells;the surface is all there, but there is no substance".

(http://members.tripod.com/lheanna/sociopat.htm)

Somebody who feels no moral responsibility to their fellow human being. The more famous sociopaths are people like Hitler, Stalin etc, but not all sociopaths are so obvious, and most will never be recognised. As many as 5% of the population can be classified as sociopathic, and many of those will never hurt anybody (statistically, you know at least one person incapable of empathy). Not from any sense of morality as we understand it, simply because the cons of acting out by far outweigh the pros. These people are High Functioning Sociopaths - indistinguishable from "normal" people because the average sociopath is smarter than the average non-sociopath, and they're good at fitting in. Now, in our world, a truly dangerous sociopath is generally created by a combination of their environment, upbringing and possibly a genetic disposition. In TV land, characters' we'd recognise as sociopaths usually tend to be moulded that way by extreme circumstances. Faith is saved from becoming a true sociopath, ironically, by her bond with the Mayor, who offers her love and an admirable (but evil) authority figure. He reaches out to her on a level that most others seem incapable of doing, and thus offers her a link to other people. Sure, he may want to wipe them out, but he's still (mostly) one of them. Faith learns that it's possible to trust somebody, and more importantly, to like somebody, which, despite all the horrible things she does at his request, is of enormous value to her later on.

Now, Alterna-Faith, we assume, recieves a new watcher eventually. Barring a miracle, Alterna-Faith is going to have an even lower opinion of authority than our Faith does, but since her only identity is as Slayer, the council come with the package. She'll do the Slayer thing, but only because she feels comfortable doing so, and her non-slayer life has never been presented as awfully enticing. Besides, slaying fulfills her thrill seeking impulse. So the pros of being a good guy outweigh the cons. Without the Mayor to protect her or Buffy to sub for her, Alterna-Faith must understand that the council would have no problem arranging for a new Slayer to take her place if she steps out of line. She'll probably never be a particularly noteworthy Slayer because she's going to be somewhat preoccupied with the fact that she can't empathise with people in the least, and can't get outed, but she'll go through the motions convincingly.

So is Alterna-Faith, who behaves herself all the time, but purely from self interest, a better person than Our-Faith, who has murdered, but is capable of remorse and guilt?

Because I just don't know...
 
M
MentPatient
Don't you remember, Faith was scared of Kaskitos and ran when she heard he was in town. She would have continued running until one of the minions captured her and brought her to Kakistos. She would ahve died earlier, but still a "good" person.
I posted something similar to this in another thread about whether it qould have been better if another slayer had been called rather than faith so im being lazy and posting it again because theres no point in writing something different to make the same point lol!!!
"I dont think a new slayer would have helped, although i loved buffy she did think she was superior to other cos really she was, well maybe not willow and i think she liked to blame all her problems on being a slayer, even though a lot of them where because of that so when faith came she felt like she'd lost her uniqueness or individuality, as seen in faith hope and trick so if another slayer was called then buffy may have pushed her away and she would have done a faith or she might have left.

Also its my opinion faith was meant to go to the darkside, for some unknown reason, e.g. so she would be waiting when angel needed saving or maybe her staying in sunnydale may have lead to chatostrophic consequences. also it does give her a reason t fight other than "its right the thing to do" because it means she has something to redeem herself for which makes her motivated."
 
Definately, she would have been a better slayer.

Buffy was obviously a rare slayer, having a group of close-knit friends who would do anything for her (even die), a vampire lover, a mother who loved her very much, a watcher who cared for her dearly, and having died and survived.

I would be severely jealous, seeing as the crap of a life Faith had lead so far. No one had reached out as Buffy had, but Buffy simply didn't REALIZE what life was like for Faith.

Yes, slaying is a pain and you almost die alot and Buffy really died, but she had people who loved her. She had people who truly cared for her, in a way Faith never did. And Buffy never really got that, and that was the reason she couldn't really help Faith.

I think Faith would have came into her own if it wasn't for being in the shadow of Buffy, and I think perhaps her trip to the dark side wouldn't have gone so far.

She definately would have made that trip- that's for sure- but I believe that if she didn't have the animosity towards Buffy, it would be far shorter.
 
Xin Rong
Xin Rong
you are so right!!! i think we could get along lol!!!!
J
Jill_Valentine
[No message]
(Since I almost never have real opinions about things, and just share my weird and probably quite uninteresting thoughts about everything, that's what I'll do this time too, just ignore me if you're bored sick of me, heh.
I have many too many almost-answers to this...)

In some ways; yeah. I'm guessing she would have done less "evil" if she had never met buffy. She probably wouldn't have killed people (but we do not know that of course), she probably wouldn't have tried to help the mayor destroy Sunnydale. Buffy made her feel really bad about herself, Buffy made her believe she couldn't do good, Buffy made her turn to the "evil" side and mayor Wilkins. She would have done less "evil" things if hadn't come to Sunnydale, but would she have been a better person/slayer in the "end"? And is that what matters, what kind of person you become? If you compare what kind of person Faith was in Consequences with what kind of person she would have been at that time if she'd never come to Sunnydale, I'd say that she would have been better of not coming there. But if you compare what kind of slayer she was in S-7 to who she'd been if none of these things had ever happened... that's a different question. Coming to Sunnydale was a really important thing for Faith because she got to experience important feelings and realizing meaningful stuff. Her and Buffy's relationship was really important in many ways. Really important was also season 7 when she realized she could do good, she really helped saving the world. Sunnydale made Faith a stronger person in many ways. Only killing Kakistos was a huge thing for her. Buffy made Faith both stronger and weaker. Buffy treated Faith like she wasn't really worth that much, which made Faith feel really bad about herself, but also made her strong 'cause she needed to "fight" for herself... and so on. To me, Buffy is such a big part of Faith. WHich is sad but also made Faith into the wonderful person/character she is.

If Faith hadn't come to Sunnydale, and just stayed the way she was (like when she arrived in Faith, Hope & Trick), she probably would have been "better". But, everyone changes, I doubt that she would have just been on her own, slaying vampires, fighting evil. Her life must have been more special and interesting than that even if she had never come to Sunnydale. I'm guessing Faith had no idea that all this would happen to her if she went to Sunnydale, just like we can't know at all what would have happened to her if she didn't. So it's quite hard to say if that something would have been better for her.

Sorry about my pointless ranting. To give a short answer, I'll say: No, I believe that Faith is a better person, after going through all that she went through in Sunnydale, than if she had never come there to begin with. But that is just what I believe.

(Why do I always do this? I discuss the question instead of the answer... Really sorry.)
 
eponinethen said:
In some ways: yeah. I'm guessing she would have done less "evil" if she had never met buffy. She probably wouldn't have killed people (but we do not know that of course), she probably wouldn't have tried to help the mayor destroy Sunnydale. Buffy made her feel really bad about herself, Buffy made her believe she couldn't do good, Buffy made her turn to the "evil" side and mayor Wilkins.

...Only killing Kakistos was a huge thing for her. Buffy made Faith both stronger and weaker. Buffy treated Faith like she wasn't really worth that much, which made Faith feel really bad about herself, but also made her strong 'cause she needed to "fight" for herself... and so on. To me, Buffy is such a big part of Faith. WHich is sad but also made Faith into the wonderful person/character she is.

I am sorry, but I find this to be a completely untrue.

Buffy never make Faith feel bad about herself, Faith made herself feel bad because all she did was envy Buffy. "Why can't I be as good as Buffy?" was apparently all Faith thought to herself in Season 3.

Envy took over Faith. Buffy never did one thing to hurt that girl. Buffy accepted her and fought along her side. Faith already had emotional trauma before she got to Sunnydale which helped lead her to the evil side of the fight.

And when did Buffy ever tell or make Faith feel like she could do no good? Just because Buffy was a superior slayer does not mean that she ever told her or did anything to make her feel like she could do no good.

How did Buffy make Faith turn to evil? Did Buffy make Faith that jealous? Buffy never even flaunted what she had in front of Faith, she tried to keep her life separate and Faith had no right to anything from Buffy's life. Buffy introduced her to her family and the Scoobs and they openly accepted her. It was Faith's fault when she accidentally stabbed a man and then actually started to LIKE KILLING PEOPLE.

She made a mistake in stabbing the Mayor's assistant, but she could have took responsibility and not committed any murders after that. But she didn't take responsibility for a while and killed even more people. So there's your "innocent" Faith who never did anything wrong, it was all "evil" Buffy who planted envy in poor little Faith's head and planned some huge conspiracy to make her feel inadequate that would ultimately lead her to the dark side... Oh yeah that is how it went
 
C
Cordelia
The voice of reason...sometimes :D
She didnt accept, she didnt trust her at first, she didnt really welcome her either at first and she also was envious of faith, too with good reason, she saw faith as a threaat, this is made clear when she says something like ive just got my life back and im not looking to go halfsys on it- also she didnt want her to come to xmas eve deven, buffy never liked faith or at least never trusted her which faith probably picked upon.
 
Xin Rong said:
it- also she didnt want her to come to xmas eve deven, buffy never liked faith or at least never trusted her which faith probably picked upon.

At first Buffy was weary of the idea of bring Faith over to her house for Christmas, but then she sincerely invited her and was happy to see her arrive.

Never liked Faith? She sure did do a lot of friendly activities with her. Like planning to go to Homecoming. And if she didn't like Faith, then she probably would have suggested that they patrol separately so they wouldn't have to spend time together. But instead she patrolled with her, especially in "Bad Girls" and even went clubbing with her. So I think it is safe to say Buffy liked her for a while and was even a good friend to her.
 
Buffy had reverted to her When She Was Bad post-drowning phase in Bad Girls, so her actions were deliberately out of Buffy-character and discernably Faith-tacular.

Whether Buffy intended to or not, she did indeed hurt Faith. Buffy never appreciated how much of an emotional hold she had over Faith, and when the Scoobies started locking her out of the group, circa Revelations, she was devastated. Bear in mind that the death of her Watcher left Faith without any support system whatsoever. Her relationship with the Scooby gang, though shaky from day one, was all she had. When they shut her out on the subject of Angel, they left her hurt and vulnerable.

When that happens Xander in the Zeppo, he gets a chance to prove his self worth to himself. When it happens Faith, she gets a chance to prove her self worth to Gwendolyn Post. Hilarity, and flying glass amputations ensue.

Faith's made some stupid choices, but she's a smart girl. After the death of Alan Finch, Buffy's attempts to "reach" Faith were infuriatingly heavy handed and patronising. Buffy was not equally responsible for the death no matter how many times you rewatch the scene, so her big stupid trauma about it is just self absorbed whining. She whinges on about how bad she feels, and how bad she just knows Faith must feel, but crucially, she doesn't seem to think it important to actually bother asking Faith how she feels. The Scoobies were not trying to help Faith because she was in trouble and badly needed it. Rather they did so because she was broken, and needed fixing to restore the status quo.

It's not as easy as taking responsibility, and not killing anybody else ("I can quit any time I want. Really.") because taking a life, while an ever present risk in the Buffyverse, is something that's judged by Normie World laws. Sadly, "I thought he was a vampire" only helps your defence if you're pleading insanity. I don't think it's speculating too far to say that Faith likely had a pre-existing criminal record extending to well before Kendra started breathing through the front of her neck. On a purely practical level, Faith understood that there was no way in hell that she could escape severe trouble after stabbing the Mayor's right hand man in the heart down a dark alley. She rightly suspects that the white hats will turn on her as a corrupting influence, who lead their Buffy astray. Faith has gone to lengths to cultivate her bad ass image, and she knows that the Scoobies just don't care enough to see through it.

I'm not going to try and argue Faith was an innocent victim to circumstance - as you say, she does bear the ultimate responsibility for her actions. Buffy didn't make her turn evil. But she didn't make it very easy for her to be a good guy, either. Intentionally or not, Buffy's words and actions had a direct impact on Faith, and without having Buffy to impress, surpass or oppose, the cracks in Faith's personality might well have healed by themselves.
 
T
Tainted Hope
I agree wholeheartedly.
Xin Rong
Xin Rong
OMG your so right!!!
Slayer said:
Buffy never make Faith feel bad about herself, Faith made herself feel bad because all she did was envy Buffy. "Why can't I be as good as Buffy?" was apparently all Faith thought to herself in Season 3.
I actually think Faith handled that situation quite well. She was the real slayer, she was at least as much a slayer as Buffy, but no-one ever let her feel that. She didn't get the chance to become as good as Buffy since no-one wanted her to be. For very few episodes they let her fight together with the scoobies, I wouldn't say that Buffy welcomed Faith and had no problem fighting along side with her.

Slayer said:
Buffy never did one thing to hurt that girl.
Heh, are you kidding me..?

I didn't say Faith didn't have emotional trauma before coming to Sunnydale. That was probably a big part of it. But yeah, I do think Buffy made Faith feel like she couldn't do good. And it doesn't really matter if that was what Buffy intended to do. I was thinking about "would Faith have been better of if she had never met Buffy?"-question. Buffy probably changed a lot of things about Faith although she didn't mean to.

Slayer said:
Buffy never even flaunted what she had in front of Faith, she tried to keep her life separate and Faith had no right to anything from Buffy's life. Buffy introduced her to her family and the Scoobs and they openly accepted her.
When Faith came to Sunnydale, she was the one trying to be friends with Buffy while Buffy was nothing but cold towards Faith. Buffy's friends happened to like Faith and was a bit more welcoming, though Faith tried to get closer to and get to know Buffy all the time. Buffy saw that as if Faith was trying to steal her life, which she wasn't, she was just trying to get to know Buffy.

Slayer said:
She made a mistake in stabbing the Mayor's assistant, but she could have took responsibility and not committed any murders after that. But she didn't take responsibility for a while and killed even more people. So there's your "innocent" Faith who never did anything wrong, it was all "evil" Buffy who planted envy in poor little Faith's head and planned some huge conspiracy to make her feel inadequate that would ultimately lead her to the dark side... Oh yeah that is how it went
I very much agree that what Faith did wasn't right. That is why I said that it would have been better if she had never come to Sunnydale because she probably wouldn't have killed people. I never said Faith was innocent, I didn't say anything like that. I also never said Buffy was evil (how did you get that from what I was writing?). I don't believe Buffy was evil at all (as you should know by know I don't believe that people can be evil). But I do believe she made Faith feel bad in many ways, I do believe a lot of things happened because of her. But that doesn't mean I believe it was all her fault, or that she was the one doing everything wrong. I think that she sometimes treated Faith unfair though, but that wasn't even what I was talking about in my post. I was just saying that Faith would not have "turned evil" if she had never met Buffy.

As I said, I only posted the first thoughts that got into my head when I heard the question. I only wrote my own stupid thoughts. I don't get why you have to react like this and act like I said Buffy is the devil while Faith is God or something.. Because that is really not what I was saying. I wasn't trying to offend anyone (character or internet-person), I was just posting my thoughts.
 
T
Tainted Hope
Very true.
Xin Rong
Xin Rong
you made really good points!!!
I think Faith would have been a better slayer had she not come to Sunnydale. We saw how good a slayer she was when she was on Angel. But thinking about it, it was her friends who pulled her through it and made her into a better person. I'm not saying she modeled herself on Buffy. But Buffy showed her how to be a good slayer and angel gave her guidance when she needed it. She I think it could have gone either way. Faith is a strong person emotionally. Her transformation through Season 5 of Angel and Season 7 of Buffy showed that. And even though she was given a little help, she had the potential to do it on her own.
 
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