I agree I think Angel only became part of the Scoobies because of his attraction to Buffy, if they hadn't got together I think he would have stayed in the shadows and continued with his cryptic clues.
Would he have stayed Cryptic Guy?
- Thread starter nightshade
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I agree I think Angel only became part of the Scoobies because of his attraction to Buffy, if they hadn't got together I think he would have stayed in the shadows and continued with his cryptic clues.
white avenger
white avenger
Yes. The only thing that inspired Angel to rejoin society voluntarily was his falling in love with Buffy from the first moment that he laid eyes on her. Before that, we never saw him associating with anyone of his own free will. He was reclusive, withdrawn, and...well...brooding in every flashback that we ever saw after regaining his soul. The only time that he ever interacted with people was when they forced themselves om him. Furthermore, he was obviously lying about attending Elvis' wedding. They didn't have banana sandwiches. He would have known that, if he really had been there.
Eternal life would have been totally wasted on souled Angel if Buffy hadn't come along. He would have spent forever in the shadows, being dull 😉 I don't think he was ever really part of the Scoobies, he preferred his own company, typical loner type tyring to deal with his guilt.
Iwearthecheese
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Maybe. But then again Whistler was basically Doyle right? Picking Angel up and getting him fighting instead of moping. So I think Angel- if he hadn't totally fallen for Buffy at first sight (*shudders*) would've probably become more like an underworld contact who fought in his own way around Sunnydale and eventually become a comrade in arms.
As I remember he had a might off-screen battle with 'fork-guy' in 'Teacher's Pet' (which had nothing to do with Buffy) and then warned Buffy about the coming of said fork-guy.
In my mind Angel was all 'I know the Chosen One and she's gonna beat you up because you stabbed me in the arm with your silly utensil-hand!' to the vampire and then ran off.
Petty Angel is my favourite Angel btw. 🙂
Also- Angel takes off his jacket to reveal the stab wound, right? So I guess he fought the vampire wearing just his little white vest because he didn't want to risk his jacket? 😕
As I remember he had a might off-screen battle with 'fork-guy' in 'Teacher's Pet' (which had nothing to do with Buffy) and then warned Buffy about the coming of said fork-guy.
In my mind Angel was all 'I know the Chosen One and she's gonna beat you up because you stabbed me in the arm with your silly utensil-hand!' to the vampire and then ran off.
Petty Angel is my favourite Angel btw. 🙂
Also- Angel takes off his jacket to reveal the stab wound, right? So I guess he fought the vampire wearing just his little white vest because he didn't want to risk his jacket? 😕
RomanticSoul
Frell Me
Angel hadn't fallen for Buffy at *first sight*. Urgh how I hate that retcon. But anyway who knows if he would have stayed CG. After all at first he was supposed to be exposition guy with the knowledge, but they ultimately realized you don't need 2 Giles'. Then he was supposed to be a literal fallen angel (hence the name is my guess) but Joss is an atheist so that wouldn't work long term. I sometimes wonder when they decided to make him a vampire. And somewhere between the pilot and before 'Angel' they decided on both the vampirism and romance. Since Angel wasn't originally in the NKABOTFD episode.
I think had Buffy not come into Angel's life, he would have just resigned to being that broody immortal guy who just goes from one day to the next with no to little purpose. Meeting Buffy gave him that purpose; that want to make the world a better place.
We see in flashbacks of AtS that previous to this, he didn't really give two hoots about anyone or anything. He genuinely didn't seem to care (even though he had a soul) until he met Buffy. Had Kendra been the slayer, for example, I doubt we would have got more from him that the odd cryptic clue here and there.
Or maybe he would have fallen for Kendra too, who knows?!
We see in flashbacks of AtS that previous to this, he didn't really give two hoots about anyone or anything. He genuinely didn't seem to care (even though he had a soul) until he met Buffy. Had Kendra been the slayer, for example, I doubt we would have got more from him that the odd cryptic clue here and there.
Or maybe he would have fallen for Kendra too, who knows?!
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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I was thinking about this at the grocery today. This is incorrect. Angel and Buffy were destined to meet and have sparks fly.
If Whistler had not introduced Angel to Buffy, he would never had became smitten with her.
If he never became smitten he never would have went to Sunnydale.
If he never went to Sunnydale, he and Buffy would never have boinked.
If they never boinked he would have never lost his soul and found out about the one true moment clause.
If he never found out about the one true moment clause when he was Morally Grey Angel he would not have boinked Darla to get his one true moment.
If he had not boinked Darla to have his one true moment then Connor would never have been born.
If Connor was never born Connor could not boink Cordy to create Jasmine.
So Jasmine told Whistler to send Angel to Buffy so that she may come into being.
Unrelated to the topic it is possible that Cordy's father also worked for Jasmine, as if he did not cheat on his income taxes Cordy would never have had to go to LA seeking work. If she were not seeking work in LA she would not have bumped into, or at least, worked for Angel. Thus eliminating the second parent of Jasmine.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
If Angel hadn't been attrracted to Buffy he still would've helped her out of- I guess- finally finding a sense of purpose.
Remember that he'd just met another morally grey character- Whistler- who is a self-admitted demon who 'isn't a bad guy' and talks about the big picture. So that alone would've broken Angel out of his justifiable 'getting cursed and being alone for eternity' mindset.
Up until that point he'd had nothing but disgust and betrayal from people and demons of all types. He was neither one thing or the other.
It would've been a bit awkward in Sunnydale though, since Buffy would still be making eyes at Angel all the time, since he was definitely her type. Still, they could've forged a close working bond and they both probably would've been ultimately happier as a result..
Remember that he'd just met another morally grey character- Whistler- who is a self-admitted demon who 'isn't a bad guy' and talks about the big picture. So that alone would've broken Angel out of his justifiable 'getting cursed and being alone for eternity' mindset.
Up until that point he'd had nothing but disgust and betrayal from people and demons of all types. He was neither one thing or the other.
It would've been a bit awkward in Sunnydale though, since Buffy would still be making eyes at Angel all the time, since he was definitely her type. Still, they could've forged a close working bond and they both probably would've been ultimately happier as a result..
bespangeled
Scooby
Jasmine, of course, was a PTB corrupted by the SP who gave her life in order to corrupt Angel and destroy his support system.
I don't see a smidgen of evidence that he would have helped Buffy herself - but I do think he might have helped whoever Whistler told him to help.
Sorry to burst the myth, but not if you believe Angel:
1920's - Angel saves a puppy in Chicago, for the love of god make it end. {Orpheus}
1920's - Angel fights a demon named Boone over a senorita in Juarez, the fight lasts three and a half hours, but ends on account of sunrise and honor. {Blood Money}
1930's - Angel visits Missoula, Montana, calls it 'Pretty Country", although he admits he was depressed there. {City of...}
1938 - Angel is in Los Angeles when news of the Columns Opera House in Nevada being swallowed in an earthquake makes the papers. {Destiny}
1943 - Angel is nabbed in New York by the US Government, and ends up on a German submarine in hostile territory. While on the ship Angel sires a sailor named Sam Lawson.
1946 - Angel visits Las Vegas, plays tennis with Bugsy Segal. {The House Always Wins}
1960's - Angel meets the Rat Pack, once, twice, maybe three times. Gives advice to Sammy Davis Jr. {The House Always Wins}
1967 - May 1st - Angel crashes Elvis and Priscilla's wedding reception in Las Vegas, he enjoys fried peanut butter and banana sandwiches while being drunk and surly. {The House Always Wins}
1967 - September - Angel attends the first taping of the Carol Burnett show in Los Angeles. Tim Conway gets set on fire, Angel declares it special. {Not Fade Away}
1975-76 - Angel plays Manilow on the jukebox and drowns his sorrow in a dead cashier. Repentance is a bitch. {Orpheus}
In all the scenes that they show us, Angel is wearing decent clothes - particularly that tailored suit he wore when he rescued the puppy - in the middle of the depression that cost some real money! He was able to feed himself, and always has some place to live - so he has some source of incomes, contacts to get blood wherever he moves, an ability to find and use stores to get what he needs including luxuries like a radio, and a fan.Even travel had to come with some special challenges, and he did a lot of that! 😎
For 80 years, until the raunchy rat blood period, he had consistent human contacts. He may not have had friends - I assume he didn't - but he wasn't a pariah. Overall, he actually did pretty well for himself. Oh, and I don't think he was depressed in Missoula, or at least I don't think that was what he was actually going to say.😉
GoSpuffy
Vampire Lover, I mean Slayer
He seemed to like Blondes best; Darla, Buffy, Nina. But he did go for Cordy so maybe Kendra.
I agree, I never considered him one of the scoobies and I don't think they did either
that scene with Angel watching Buffy and her lollipop - ugh. As the mother of three young daughters that could put me off Angel for life.
bespangeled
Scooby
Spike😀
You mean, Lolita Buffy - yeah, that one is hard for me too - it just hits so many bad real world issues. I do have to work to separate the two, which makes me wonder what the hell Joss was even thinking of when he put that in.
GoSpuffy
Vampire Lover, I mean Slayer
OMG....We've just figured out why Spike started dying his hair! It was to compete with Darla for Angel's affections. lol
Angel season 3 - episode 4 proof that Angel likes blondes?
Cordy: "What? This is totally like him. Doing the mystery dance with some cheap blonde?"
Fred: "Brunette. She was a cheap brunette."
Cordy: "You're right. This isn't like him."
Gunn: "So, who was she?"
Wes: "I don't think it matters who *she* was. The question is, who is *he*?"
Cordy: "Uh-huh. We're all thinking it. - He's Angelus again."
bespangeled
Scooby
Ah, yes, William with his honey blond curls, piercing blue eyes, high cheekbones, and carved pecs.
Yeah - he and Spike were legendary!
GoSpuffy
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GoSpuffy
Vampire Lover, I mean Slayer
sigh, you had me at honey blonde curls, the rest is just bonus salty goodness.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Firstly 'up until that point' means before the 1950's. You get that right? So I don't really care about Angel's time with the Rat Pack. 🙄
Secondly yeah, I stand by the fact that when ever somebody got close to Angel and/or found out about what he was, they called him a monster and treated him as such. Judy was no different. Angel still thought of himself as a pariah- somebody got close, found out his true self and Angel acted accordingly.
Playing tennis with some mobster doesn't qualify as 'getting close' unless Bugsy said 'hey, you vamps have got a hell of a back-hand.'
And since I don't eqaute good tailoring with some sort of blissful existence- plenty of depressed, lonely, self-hating people manage to dress themselves well- then yeah, at this point in his journey Angel reaction makes sense. It isn't 'right'- its actually kinda shocking- but it is understandable.
So, 'myth' sustained. 😉
bespangeled
Scooby
No, you were talking about Whistler - then said up until that point he'd had nothing but disgust and betrayal from people and demons of all types. Whether or not you care about the Rat Pack, it happened before Whistler came, and since he hung out with them more than once there's no sign of disgust or betrayal.
Not disgust and betrayal, either. No disgust and betrayal from the Rat Pack and Sammy Davis, some hella big stars of the time. They did get together more than once, and Sammy did listen to his advice. In fact, neither disgust or betrayal featured in any of that list.
Since you didn't seem to get what I said about the suit I'll clarify. Clothes, lodging, blood, travel arrangements, books, drawing materials, and everything else required that Angel have a source of income (a comparatively large one during the depression) and regular interactions with people. Since he arrived penniless, he must have found some way to earn money and that would also require some interaction. Up until that point he'd had nothing but disgust and betrayal from people and demons of all types - not true at all. Myth dusted.
Got close to is a whole new criteria. However Judy was the only person we saw who ever got close to him and called him a monster - at least before he met Xander. Darla was the only demon we saw who said he disgusted her. Angel also called himself a monster - as Xander told Spike, they make monster movies about vampires.😀
I do agree with the pariah part - but that really shows that Angel's attitude was half of his problem. However, he also didn't have operand conditioning to teach him not to attack humans - he had to rely on self will, a much more challenging proposition.
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thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Oops, your're right, my mistake. I mixed up my thread arguements.
Still, Whistler was the first one who told Angel of his potential to 'do more' with himself and help somebody. My point still stands that Angel would've wanted to do that even without the romance aspect.
Iwearthecheese
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I don't think he was treated like a pariah all the time, but I always thought that Angel thought of himself as a pariah.
When you have the memory of a hundred and forty-ish years of inflicting pain and suffering and suddenly are forced to care then it doesn't matter if people are nasty or indifferent to you, if you have morality you're going to feel like crap.
What matters is positivity. Any character needs that affirmation about them, Angel needed it, Spike needed it, Faith and Willow needed it, there was nobody that wasn't averse to a bit/lot of wallowing in their own self-hatred and guilt. It's actually a measure of their humanity that they do.
And it's just that, due to circumstances- Angel wallowed the longest of all of them. That's nothing against him, that's not weakness, he just didn't have anybody for the longest time- he was all attack or avoid people for ages.
bespangeled
Scooby
Agreed - not weakness - strength! He was the anti-Angelus and the anti-Liam. Yes, he partied at times, but clearly that didn't fill the hole any more than anything else did.
Had Spike been souled without the chip he would have gone to wherever the predators were and fought and eaten them figuring he was doing a good thing (if he didn't take an immediate afternoon stroll). Angel did do some of that, but he also had more of an abstract nature - he thought about what he had done and what it meant. Yeah, he brooded - but there was more than counting his sins going on. He realized that he had no right to judge, and to kill based on that judgement. Yeah, he fell down more than once but he tried, and mostly succeeded in overcoming his desire to kill even those who did wrong. That's huge.
I think he did need Buffy to bring him to that next level, and he did need to love her - but that doesn't mean romantic love. It's like what Spike said - who she is, what she does, how she tries. (Just like Spike needed Dana to bring him to a new level, in a different sense. ) There is so much of Angelus in Angel - both the good and the bad - and while he could use those strengths to hold back the bloodlust, Buffy wakened the ability to actually actively do good.
So, not even sure he would have been cryptic guy. But maybe Whistler would have had some other way to awaken Angel, in some other place.
Iwearthecheese
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Agreed. Acknowledgement of your sins is always a strength because is shows empathy, compassion and inner strength.
Maybe, it depends. Spike could've easily got the 'aviod any fight' route like Angel did. Spike needed something to fight for just like Angel. He needed 'the girl' to pick him up, tell him off and tell him what to do, otherwise he was busy hiding in a basement.
It would be like if Darla had accepted what Angel had become and tried to guide him- a very powerful motivator.
Darla was different. Darla made the completely natural choice of trying to become what she had once been knowing what it would cost her- her humanity- and neither guy did this.
Angel or Spike could've rampaged in blood for a good long while and squashed their humanity entirely- Angelus had a talent for inflicting torment (must've come from somewhere) and Spike loved violence- and yet neither could completely embrace that side of their former selves like they used to- they had to become something else.