Would the Wishiverse have resulted in Martial Law?

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CordelliasHeart

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I find it hard that the situation described in the episode "the Wish" would have gone unnotied, by The initiative, if not the federal government.


Any thoughts?
 
CordelliasHeart said:
I find it hard that the situation described in the episode "the Wish" would have gone unnotied, by The initiative, if not the federal government.


Any thoughts?
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That could be said about just about all of the goings on around the Hellmouth, and the same would go for Los Angeles as it was portrayed in "Angel." Demons and vampires seem, at times, to outnumber the humans, and how could the populace NOT notice the annual apocalypses, one of which even disrupted a high school graduation?

This is another one of those blazing inconsistencies that seem to abound in the Whedonverse. In all fairness, however, the same thing is common throughout all fiction of this nature, and is really one of the main factors that contributes to the action. Buffy and her friends in Sunnydale, and Angel and his crew in Los Angeles are the Davids to the demon world's Goliath, and as such, basically stand alone in their fight. If they had an army to call on whenever things got rough, where would all the excitement be?
 
Wesley Pryce
Wesley Pryce
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The Master probably had his lackies kill all the police officers and any other person in authority. The town would have been thoroughly searched, the Initiative would have been found, and, for all their knowledge, they would have stood no chance against an onslaught of vampires that The Master had at his disposal, and his ability to make more any time he wanted.

He also probably had The Mayor dispatched, WAY before he became un-kill-able, since there was absolutely no sign of him in 'The Wish'.

With the town as small as Sunnydale, it wouldn't be hard to avoid any sort of media or outside attention.
 
Wesley Pryce
Wesley Pryce
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Totally. "The Wish" is a fun episode, but it doesn't make a ton of sense. There's just no way the American government would ever...allow something like that to happen. The show loves painting the government as incompetent, I get that, but the simple fact is that a whole town would not be allowed to be taken over by a cult-leading vampire.
 
Something that has to be considered is that the Initiative, from the size and complexity of their facility in Season 4, absolutely HAD to have been to have been in Sunnydale years before even Season 1. There's no way that the Master could have raised a big enough army of minions to take out all those people, even if the majority of them were untrained scientists, not soldiers, before some call for help and reinforcements wouldn't have gone out. No matter how covert the Initiative's mission might have been, troops would have been dispatched to help (That's one of the objections to the end that I have to the end of Season 4, by the way. Any menace great enough to kill everyone in that facility that large would have presented far too large a threat for the military to have just abandoned it and pretended that nothing happened there. Sunnydale would have become a war zone overnight)
 
R
Robb Stark
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white avenger said:
Something that has to be considered is that the Initiative, from the size and complexity of their facility in Season 4, absolutely HAD to have been to have been in Sunnydale years before even Season 1. There's no way that the Master could have raised a big enough army of minions to take out all those people, even if the majority of them were untrained scientists, not soldiers, before some call for help and reinforcements wouldn't have gone out. No matter how covert the Initiative's mission might have been, troops would have been dispatched to help (That's one of the objections to the end that I have to the end of Season 4, by the way. Any menace great enough to kill everyone in that facility that large would have presented far too large a threat for the military to have just abandoned it and pretended that nothing happened there. Sunnydale would have become a war zone overnight)
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I always thought the Intiative only got involved when Buffy blew up the school. That would've made national headlines and got the government poking about, and with no local cover-ups anymore...

Also bear in mind that the military (not the government) is really good at setting up state-of-the-art facilities in remote areas in no time at all. Though the 'how come nobody noticed them at all until now' is more the thing I have an issue with. Building a facility under a town would be a logistical nightmare.

Another thing, I do question the competency of the Intiaiative if they were in Sunnydale for years and didn't realise that somebody was keeping the resident monster population in check. They seem completly thrown by the presence of 'the Slayer'.

To be honest, in the Wish-verse I invisage a four way battle between The Master and his Order, The Mayor (even when he wasn't invulnerable he was some sort of sorceror) with his own resources and vampires, a burgeoning Intiative trying to keep a lid on things, and stopping them all spreading beyond the town, and poor Giles and the White hats trying to hold back the tide.

That would be an interesting show, and not a slayer in sight.
 
Then again, we're talking about the Wishverse, not the actual Buffyverse, so all sorts of things could have been thrown out of kilter, not just the presence or absence of a Slayer on the Hellmouth. When Anyanka rearranged reality, she either didn't know about the Initiative's presence, or did know, and didn't want their interference in her plans, so she left them out of her creation. Likewise, she didn't know that Whistler recruited Angel specifically to help Buffy, so he would have known where she actually was and gone there, not to the Hellmouth.

Without anything like the Initiative being there, and with the locals' apparent indifference or downright denial of everything that was going on under their very noses, the knowledge of what was going on in Sunnydale probably never got beyond the city limits.
 
white avenger said:
Then again, we're talking about the Wishverse, not the actual Buffyverse, so all sorts of things could have been thrown out of kilter, not just the presence or absence of a Slayer on the Hellmouth. When Anyanka rearranged reality, she either didn't know about the Initiative's presence, or did know, and didn't want their interference in her plans, so she left them out of her creation. Likewise, she didn't know that Whistler recruited Angel specifically to help Buffy, so he would have known where she actually was and gone there, not to the Hellmouth.

Without anything like the Initiative being there, and with the locals' apparent indifference or downright denial of everything that was going on under their very noses, the knowledge of what was going on in Sunnydale probably never got beyond the city limits.
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It also brings up the question: was The Mayor counting on Buffy being in Sunnydale during the runup to his ascension?
Have her take care of The Master, guard the Hellmouth, etc.
And did he somehow arrange for Joyce and Buffy to come to Sunnydale, or was in just fortuitous?

My understanding of the wish is that Anyanka changed one thing, removed Buffy Summers from Sunnydale, and everything else rippled out from that. Angel still came/was sent to Sunnydale by Whistler, The Harvest happened, etc.
I guess one person really can make a difference.

On a side note, what does anybody think happened to Luke or Darla?
Did Angel manage to take them out before he got captured? Or was it heroic Giles and his White Hats? Or was it a Xander/Willow coup for The Master's second in command spot?
I could imagine all three.
 
thetopher said:
It also brings up the question: was The Mayor counting on Buffy being in Sunnydale during the runup to his ascension?
Have her take care of The Master, guard the Hellmouth, etc.
And did he somehow arrange for Joyce and Buffy to come to Sunnydale, or was in just fortuitous?

My understanding of the wish is that Anyanka changed one thing, removed Buffy Summers from Sunnydale, and everything else rippled out from that. Angel still came/was sent to Sunnydale by Whistler, The Harvest happened, etc.
I guess one person really can make a difference.

On a side note, what does anybody think happened to Luke or Darla?
Did Angel manage to take them out before he got captured? Or was it heroic Giles and his White Hats? Or was it a Xander/Willow coup for The Master's second in command spot?
I could imagine all three.
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I doubt that Wilkins actually manipulated Buffy and her mother into moving to Sunnydale. That would be more the Watchers' style, (they might have had information about both the Master and Wilkins, and their respective plans) especially if you consider the fact that Buffy's new Watcher was already there, waiting for her.

As for what Anyanka did with her spell, her exact wording, while aimed specifically at the Slayer, might have had a similar "overflow" effect that Willow's spell in "Tabula Rasa," aimed only at Tara, had on the rest of her friends. Anyanka's spell might have actually eliminated any outside help coming to Sunnydale. I always got the feeling that magic wasn't always an exact science in the Buffyverse.
 
Yes, I really have trouble buying that the government wouldn't have done anything. If not by sending in some heavily armed forces, then nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure😉

I'm also surprised that the normal citizens didn't just, you know, leave the damn town during the day. That's what cars and the highway are for. Or walking at a brisk pace. If they're gonna be that stupid, they kind of deserve their fate, is all I'm saying.

Also, wasn't the Master's release also supposed to free the Old Ones? If the government was busy dealing with giant, unspeakable Lovecraftian abominations roaming the countryside, it could explain why Sunnydale wasn't that big of a priority.
 
Oh a curious other question

Would the Wishiverse have neccessarily resulted in a endless global dystopia, or just death for buffy and all her friends and loved ones, if it had continued.

e.g. the next slayer, MIGHT have taken down the master, and crushed all his lackeys.

but that "Mass production technology" Would have been there to stay Im afraid...

Just an idea...
 
The Wishverse would have resulted in the United States Army flooding Sunnydale and decimating the The Master.
 
Because where would the fun in that be? 😛

It would never go unnoticed, but then again, half the things in the Buffyverse will probably never happen. (Really hope I didn't jinx anything)
 
dtrain24 said:
Because where would the fun in that be? 😛

It would never go unnoticed, but then again, half the things in the Buffyverse will probably never happen. (Really hope I didn't jinx anything)
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True, but I feel then like the story should have been altered. I get that it's fiction, it's fantasy, but everyone always lauds Joss in everything he does for paying attention to the details when the reality is so starkly different. I love the S1 concept of "One Slayer" because it makes sense, it flies under the radar and even though the government is aware of vampires, they believe that they have an alternative method of dealing with them, which allows Buffy to operate on her own without their interference.

But a de facto army of vamps literally taking over a town and virtually enslaving its residents? For me, that's pushing it.
 
Wesley Pryce
Wesley Pryce
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Another idea.

Why does the Wishverse have to consist of anything outside the bounds of Sunnydale? Isn't that pretty much what happened to Los Angeles later in the "After The Fall" ac of Season 6? Maybe beyond the borders of Sunnydale, there was simply a void, or some sort on impenetrable barrier, like Superman's Kryptonian city in a bottle, Kandor.

All that Anyanka actually had to do to fulfill Cordy's wish was to make one community that was basically an alternate reality from the Buffyverse version of Sunnydale. Why waste all that extra magic creating an entire planet?
 
Robb Stark said:
True, but I feel then like the story should have been altered. I get that it's fiction, it's fantasy, but everyone always lauds Joss in everything he does for paying attention to the details when the reality is so starkly different. I love the S1 concept of "One Slayer" because it makes sense, it flies under the radar and even though the government is aware of vampires, they believe that they have an alternative method of dealing with them, which allows Buffy to operate on her own without their interference.

But a de facto army of vamps literally taking over a town and virtually enslaving its residents? For me, that's pushing it.
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You have a good point there. While we weren't aware of The Initiative's existence yet, unless I'm forgetting something, I'm sure Joss had season 4 laid out. Maybe he could have foreshadowed The Initiative? Maybe he thought of it and didn't want to mess with how the episode would've played out in his vision.
 
Under the American law of Posse Comitatus, the military are not allowed to operate within the boundaries of the US. Of the military, only the National Guard or the Coast Guard has the ability to arrest a civilian in the US.

The closest thing to martial law in the US is the Riot Act but it is hard to see how this would be applied here.

That leaves Homeland Security and the covert 3-letter agencies, the CIA, FBI, NSA and other such entities and their mercenary contractors such as Blackwater/Xe/Academi or other independent contractors. Strictly speaking, this is not martial law since it is not administered by the military.

The Initiative would be populated by ex-military and operated as a secret research organization, but could not establish its own laws for civilians because that would break the secrecy. It might be on a par with DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency which invented the concept of the internet in 1968 as a means for its scientists to communicate with each other) and other research / think tank operations.
 
Ethan Reigns said:
Under the American law of Posse Comitatus, the military are not allowed to operate within the boundaries of the US. Of the military, only the National Guard or the Coast Guard has the ability to arrest a civilian in the US.

The closest thing to martial law in the US is the Riot Act but it is hard to see how this would be applied here.

That leaves Homeland Security and the covert 3-letter agencies, the CIA, FBI, NSA and other such entities and their mercenary contractors such as Blackwater/Xe/Academi or other independent contractors. Strictly speaking, this is not martial law since it is not administered by the military.

The Initiative would be populated by ex-military and operated as a secret research organization, but could not establish its own laws for civilians because that would break the secrecy. It might be on a par with DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency which invented the concept of the internet in 1968 as a means for its scientists to communicate with each other) and other research / think tank operations.
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Well...no. The NSA has no domestic mission and is not allowed to operate domestically unless Americans are tied to terrorist suspects overseas, for starters, neither does the CIA, and saying that the army is not allowed to operate within domestic boundaries just isn't true. If the security of the homeland is threatened then they absolutely do. How else do you explain the Union response to the Civil War? The military exists to defend the nation. If the nation is threatened at home, then that's where they are going to be.
 
Posse Comitatus prevents the military with the exception of the Coast Guard from enforcing laws or engaging in arrest, search or seizure within the US for citizens. This does not exclude military action if a war comes to US soil.

Eric Snowden has pointed out that the NSA is operating in the US in intelligence gathering and he has been hounded out of the country for his efforts.

The CIA is not funded to operate in the US but their covert funding from the sale of drugs and weapons (remember Iran Contra?) is not subject to oversight.
 
Ethan Reigns said:
Posse Comitatus prevents the military with the exception of the Coast Guard from enforcing laws or engaging in arrest, search or seizure within the US for citizens. This does not exclude military action if a war comes to US soil.

Eric Snowden has pointed out that the NSA is operating in the US in intelligence gathering and he has been hounded out of the country for his efforts.

The CIA is not funded to operate in the US but their covert funding from the sale of drugs and weapons (remember Iran Contra?) is not subject to oversight.
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Posse Comitatus would not apply in the Wishverse case. A supernatural invading force had taken over the town. That has nothing to do with the military enforcing laws upon U.S. citizens. Like, at all.

And you're not exactly saying what Snowden did. He revealed the existence of the metadata program, which showed that when terrorism suspects in other countries contacted Americans, the NSA was able to access the duration and numbers of the calls, not the call itself, which then then turned over to the FBI for further investigation. America is a country with over 350 million people. To assume that terrorist suspects are talking to some of them is woefully naive. The NSA walks a very fine line, but Snowden has been caught lying about both his past and intentions several times now (check out his most recent "interview" and the NSA's response to it), is clearly a narcissist (count the number of times the man says "I" or "me" in his appearances. It's stunning), and has been very selective in regards to what he tells the public. For instance, he completely failed to mention that in 2002 President Bush offered to authorize the NSA with a domestic-to-domestic mandate and Director Hayden turned him down flat, saying that's not what NSA is there for. Funny how none of that is every brought up by Mr. Snowden. The guy is a snake.

And if you don't think the CIA faced repercussions and enhanced oversight following Iran/Contra, which didn't involve drug sales at all, then you weren't following it very carefully. That was a HUGE case that greatly restructured the intelligence community.
 
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