Would Willow Have Come?

[Dagenspear]

No, she would not have come, because she was in another dimension and could not come. Why do people think Giles was lying about that? He's only ever tried to help people and it was not in his character to refuse to tell Willow and lie about her not being available.

Then why didn't she come? Willow had met and liked Fred. She wouldn't just let her die like that. Yeah, like that whole letting Robin/Principal Wood kill Spike thing. That was really helpful.

Also, it's implied heavily in ANGEL that Giles blew them off because they were working at W & H.

 

[Ripper666]

I think that Willow would come. She is the type that has to help when one of the Scoobie gang realy needs her help! Because she has a high moral level.

 

[Pik]

I still think Willow should've had a relationship with Fred instead of Kennedy.

But yes, I do believe Willow would have helped, she seem to have a good relationship with both Angel and Fred. It really had to do more with Giles being a complete asshole!

 

[patriot1123]

Then why didn't she come? Willow had met and liked Fred. She wouldn't just let her die like that. Yeah, like that whole letting Robin/Principal Wood kill Spike thing. That was really helpful.

Spike was a vampire. Giles's job was to kill vampires. When it comes to a person who was not also housing a demon (Ben), Giles only ever risked his life to help people. He never let someone die out of spite, and would not have done so here. Especially when Fred was on the same team in the fight against evil. And especially when all Angel was asking was that he call Willow.

Also, it's implied heavily in ANGEL that Giles blew them off because they were working at W & H.

No, it was implied heavily that he disapproved of them working at W&H. It was stated explicitly that Willow was in another dimension and could not come, and we know from season 8 that that was true.

---------- Post added at 07:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 PM ----------

It really had to do more with Giles being a complete asshole!

So, let's see. Which one of these scenarios is more likely:

Giles was telling the truth when he said that Willow was not available, which is confirmed by season 8.

OR

Giles was so mad at Angel for being associated with W&H that he would let an innocent human, fighting on the same side in the fight against evil, die, rather than make a simple phone call to Willow. Even though Giles only ever risked his life for humans. Even though he didn't hold a grudge against Angel for torturing him, for hours, for pleasure, earlier.

Yeah, that's a tough one.

---------- Post added at 07:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:30 PM ----------

And this is yet again another example of Giles thinking his definitions of right and wrong and evil and good are right/true regardless of that being true or not.

Don't we all think that? I mean, seriously. Do you know anyone who thinks that their own definitions of right and wrong and evil and good are wrong?

 

[zobothehobo]

Don't we all think that? I mean, seriously. Do you know anyone who thinks that their own definitions of right and wrong and evil and good are wrong?

Maybe so. But we don't all act on them. Giles made his definition of right and wrong THE definition of right and wrong. And he did it more than once. It was kind of his thing. He didn't think about the possible consequences or effects on others... or even entertain the possibility there may be other valid points of view and perspectives on the subject. He acted.

 

[patriot1123]

He didn't think about the possible consequences or effects on others

Or on himself. Ever. One of the things I love about him.

 

[Dagenspear]

Spike was a vampire. Giles's job was to kill vampires. When it comes to a person who was not also housing a demon (Ben), Giles only ever risked his life to help people. He never let someone die out of spite, and would not have done so here. Especially when Fred was on the same team in the fight against evil. And especially when all Angel was asking was that he call Willow.

No, it was implied heavily that he disapproved of them working at W&H. It was stated explicitly that Willow was in another dimension and could not come, and we know from season 8 that that was true.

Then why did Angel become furious and smash the phone? By that action, it's implied that Giles blew him off. I'm not neccesarily saying that Giles allowed Fred to die, but, more like he didn't believe that there was a crisis to begin with, he thought Angel was lying, and so he blew him off for working with W & H. I should also say that I don't view the comics as canon... I mean, yeah, they're fun to read, but, come on.

---------- Post added at 09:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 AM ----------

I should also say, that if Giles wasn't against Angel, then why didn't Willow come, EVER? I mean, it seems like Giles NEVER even told her.

 

[Icarium]

Then why did Angel become furious and smash the phone?

Because he was a little bit irrational at the time? Or because he is not mind-reader and couldn't know for sure if Giles was lying or not? I don't see why Giles would be lying. If he didn't want to help Angel he would have just told him that along with a few British curses for good measure.

He didn't think about the possible consequences or effects on others... or even entertain the possibility there may be other valid points of view and perspectives on the subject. He acted.

He did think on the possible effect of Spike killing everybody in their sleep...unlike some Slayers that I might mention. If Buffy can't go on without Spikey - tough, but far better than him killing everyone.

 

[patriot1123]

Then why did Angel become furious and smash the phone?

I hardly think that Angel's reaction is evidence of what Giles was intending or thinking. Better evidence is Giles's own statement, backed up by season 8, which is canon whether you regard it as such or not, and backed up by Giles's history, which never saw him blowing off the death of an innocent human being.

I should also say, that if Giles wasn't against Angel, then why didn't Willow come, EVER? I mean, it seems like Giles NEVER even told her.

A lot of things happen off screen. Too many to list, but just a few possibilities: Fred died before Willow returned and Giles got word of it; Willow did come, and it was too late; Willow was gone too long.

 

[Abbeycat]

Ohh, I definitely think Willow would have helped Angel if she knew about the problem. I think she'd want to try to help at least.

 

[Mithol]

I'm confused here. You all seem to be under the mistaken impression that Angel called Giles to find Willow in A Hole In The World (5.15) to try and enlist her help to save Fred. But that's all wrong. Angel called Giles in Shells (5.16) after Fred was already dead to try and get her to bring Fred back to life, just like she did with Buffy.

So, would she have come to help resurrect Fred if she'd known that? I don't think so. Not after what happened with Buffy. I'm fairly sure that Willow had learnt her lesson by then.

And also, Angel never actually told Giles why he needed to find Willow in the episode. He may have off screen, but judging from the tone of the conversation, it doesn't seem likely. It seems to me that he was just asking where she was and then he lost his temper. (Hence the phone throwing, a symptom of Angel's frustration obviously, not an indication of any ill intent on Giles' part.)

So, I'm not going to comment on all the unjustified Giles hate, because it seems you were all mislead due to gaps in your knowledge.

 

[patriot1123]

I'm confused here. You all seem to be under the mistaken impression that Angel called Giles to find Willow in A Hole In The World (5.15) to try and enlist her help to save Fred. But that's all wrong. Angel called Giles in Shells (5.16) after Fred was already dead to try and get her to bring Fred back to life, just like she did with Buffy.

So, would she have come to help resurrect Fred if she'd known that? I don't think so. Not after what happened with Buffy. I'm fairly sure that Willow had learnt her lesson by then.

And also, Angel never actually told Giles why he needed to find Willow in the episode. He may have off screen, but judging from the tone of the conversation, it doesn't seem likely. It seems to me that he was just asking where she was and then he lost his temper. (Hence the phone throwing, a symptom of Angel's frustration obviously, not an indication of any ill intent on Giles' part.)

So, I'm not going to comment on all the unjustified Giles hate, because it seems you were all mislead due to gaps in your knowledge.

... perfect note. I wish rep could be edited. Anyway, perfect note - thank you.