Would Willow have stayed with Tara if she couldn't fix the damage Glory did?

[garfan]

One thing the show remained reasonably consistent on was that magic had consequences; Spike said something along those lines at one point, and though I can't remember his precise wording, he was right. Once you start using magic, never shown to be a particularly safe thing to be playing with, to do things like put up decorations and get dressed in the morning, you are overusing it. Just because you can do something with magic doesn't mean you should, and saving a few minutes of work is like using the rocket launcher to kill a fly.

early seasons magic only had consequences if you messed something up, despite what they claimed.

 

[CardboardGhost]

early seasons magic only had consequences if you messed something up, despite what they claimed.

Agreed. This is why the idea of "addiction" in season six felt so arbitrary. It's one thing to say that Willow is too willing to do magic for things she doesn't need and a completely different thing to show her experiencing withdrawal symptoms and constantly doing bigger spells in search of a better "high." Those are consequences that blatantly contradict her relationship with magic in the earlier seasons, where the caution was always against making big changes carelessly. Season six introduces the idea out of the blue that any act of magic will have negative consequences... which stops being true again in season seven, where Willow doing a spell is the climactic, heroic act she does in the final battle.

 

[NotASlayer]

Agreed. This is why the idea of "addiction" in season six felt so arbitrary. It's one thing to say that Willow is too willing to do magic for things she doesn't need and a completely different thing to show her experiencing withdrawal symptoms and constantly doing bigger spells in search of a better "high." Those are consequences that blatantly contradict her relationship with magic in the earlier seasons, where the caution was always against making big changes carelessly. Season six introduces the idea out of the blue that any act of magic will have negative consequences... which stops being true again in season seven, where Willow doing a spell is the climactic, heroic act she does in the final battle.

There is also the issue that in seasons four and five Tara and Willow were "doing magic" together. Having magic suddenly become a dirty and disgusting thing done in crack houses that no right thinking person would do... well, that has lovely undertones.

 

[hoponlilmama]

early seasons magic only had consequences if you messed something up, despite what they claimed.

Bringing back someone from the dead - pretty major and channelling dark arts would have consequences.
It's an unverified theory, but the idea of a 'life for a life'. Losing Tara in order to bring Buffy back. The sacrifice of a deer wasn't enough.

Again, unverified/fan theory, but it kinda fits.

All spells have the risk of consequences. Perhaps not the spell itself, but the aftermath of - as in, Willow manipulating feelings. Xander angry discovering Willow tried to use a spell on him, for example. You risk damaging friendships and relationships.

 

[garfan]

Bringing back someone from the dead - pretty major and channelling dark arts would have consequences.
It's an unverified theory, but the idea of a 'life for a life'. Losing Tara in order to bring Buffy back. The sacrifice of a deer wasn't enough.

Again, unverified/fan theory, but it kinda fits.

All spells have the risk of consequences. Perhaps not the spell itself, but the aftermath of - as in, Willow manipulating feelings. Xander angry discovering Willow tried to use a spell on him, for example. You risk damaging friendships and relationships.

that is not the magic, Because failing to cast the spell but still consisdering it would get those consequences. Or finding a way to do it without magic

there's certain things insinuated when people say magic always has consequences and then mentioning how the act can alter how people feel about you is a post hoc rationalization to justify continuing to say it even though it is shown to not be true.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

I am concerned (if concerned is the right word) by members saying that Willow over used the magic.
How much magic did Willow do that members think is over use?
When Willow went overseas with Kennedy one example of magic would be to fund the carers for Tara. That might indicate that Willow used less and less magic by her own decision.

I think DRIVING using magic, taking a kid to sit at your magic pusher while you fix and going to a club and performing potentially life changing magic on strangers (gender, people in cages) for her own amusement constitutes both overuse and recklessness, oh and altering Tara's memory repeatedly and everyone's at least once... And those were just a few.

 

[garfan]

I think DRIVING using magic, taking a kid to sit at your magic pusher while you fix and going to a club and performing potentially life changing magic on strangers (gender, people in cages) for her own amusement constitutes both overuse and recklessness, oh and altering Tara's memory repeatedly and everyone's at least once... And those were just a few.

they were telling her she was overusing before doing that and I maintain Smashed and Wrecked were OOC for Willow. That is the point where even the people in favor of the story arc thought it went off the rails

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

they were telling her she was overusing before doing that and I maintain Smashed and Wrecked were OOC for Willow. That is the point where even the people in favor of the story arc thought it went off the rails

You are welcome to your interpretation of the facts in evidence.

I will go back to season 4 where her will be done spell releases the power of a GOD. All that simply for a bad breakup. Her (deeply amoral) goal? Force her boyfriend to come back!! Just THAT alone would be a vile and rapacious act. Had Oz returned, all sex would have been rape - but even worse is that Oz would have become her Stepford husband - her robot.

She could have ended the world by that one spell or killed anyone with a single misplaced phrase. "Their heads should explode" "They should all go to hell". "The whole world should just blow up! ANYTHING she said could have come true.

She did not ever consider how wrong It was BEFORE she violated every moral code.

She was out of control and entirely unaware of the violations of everyone's will she perpetrated with that ONE spell.

Rank. Arrogant. SELFISH. WILFUL. AMATEUR. Does not even come close.

She caused Spike and Buffy to get engaged. If they had had sex it would have been magically forced on them. She would have raped them or made them rape each other. There are no words. The demons could have killed Xander and Anya. Becoming suddenly blind could have endangered Giles's life. He could have fallen down the stairs.

Willow's apology was making Cookies? She was utterly self-centered and completely oblivious to the harms she caused or the potential harms she barely avoided. No. I have little respect for what came later. It is no surprise that she ended up throwing a world-ender of a 2 year old's tantrum.

Just in case you want to excuse it by saying "but Tara died!" - i was a young widow who suddenly lost the love of my life. It was abrupt, violent and has continued to have consequences years later. I did not kill his killer or even consider it though i had a fiery rage and deep grief for a long time. Many people endure the unendurable. Live without those we cannot be without. Few go off the rails so completely.

She had the responsibility of almost infinite power.

She misused it.

Early. Often. With malice but without forethought or self-searching. Without regard to consequence. Self will run riot. A human hurricane.

 

[NotASlayer]

One, possibly interesting, side effect is that Willow would have spent her time searching for a cure. Not trying to resurrect Buffy.

 

[garfan]

You are welcome to your interpretation of the facts in evidence.

I will go back to season 4 where her will be done spell releases the power of a GOD. All that simply for a bad breakup. Her (deeply amoral) goal? Force her boyfriend to come back!! Just THAT alone would be a vile and rapacious act. Had Oz returned, all sex would have been rape - but even worse is that Oz would have become her Stepford husband - her robot.

No, he wouldn't have been and that is a utterly bizarre reading of the situation

For one thing, even if you take the least charitable view of the "make Oz stay" line, Oz left for a reason and Willow's spell would have eliminated that reason. Hell, his behavior at the end of the season suggests he didn't even think they counted as broken up.

He was traveling to the ends of the Earth to eliminate the dangers of the wolf inside him, but potentially the answer was in Sunnydale. Eliminating the problem that made him need to leave is not violating his will, it's solving his problem for him

and of course there's the fact when she cast the spell, the first thing she tried to do was to herself and made it unlikely she'd even have tried that

She could have ended the world by that one spell or killed anyone with a single misplaced phrase. "Their heads should explode" "They should all go to hell". "The whole world should just blow up! ANYTHING she said could have come true.

or if the spell had worked as she intended it, she'd have fixed her problem and ended it as easily as she did at the end of the episode

She caused Spike and Buffy to get engaged. If they had had sex it would have been magically forced on them. She would have raped them or made them rape each other. There are no words. The demons could have killed Xander and Anya. Becoming suddenly blind could have endangered Giles's life. He could have fallen down the stairs.

And all of that was accidental. Everything in Smashed and Wrecked(except the car accident) was intentional. That is the difference. She would not have said those things involving the Scoobies if she knew her words were causing that kind of trouble

Willow's apology was making Cookies? She was utterly self-centered and completely oblivious to the harms she caused or the potential harms she barely avoided. No. I have little respect for what came later. It is no surprise that she ended up throwing a world-ender of a 2 year old's tantrum.

She made cookies because the harm she cause was unintentional and she had no actual need to make amends but felt compelled to try, and if she had there were no actual means

Just in case you want to excuse it by saying "but Tara died!" - i was a young widow who suddenly lost the love of my life. It was abrupt, violent and has continued to have consequences years later. I did not kill his killer or even consider it though i had a fiery rage and deep grief for a long time. Many people endure the unendurable. Live without those we cannot be without. Few go off the rails so completely.

I'm sorry for your loss but in the world of fiction I like vengeance in general and in the world of Buffy, I do not believe any authority figures were established as appropriate to deal with the problems the Scoobies faced. It was they act or the villains don't face real justice

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

No, he wouldn't have been and that is a utterly bizarre reading of the situation

For one thing, even if you take the least charitable view of the "make Oz stay" line, Oz left for a reason and Willow's spell would have eliminated that reason. Hell, his behavior at the end of the season suggests he didn't even think they counted as broken up.

He was traveling to the ends of the Earth to eliminate the dangers of the wolf inside him, but potentially the answer was in Sunnydale. Eliminating the problem that made him need to leave is not violating his will, it's solving his problem for him

and of course there's the fact when she cast the spell, the first thing she tried to do was to herself and made it unlikely she'd even have tried that



or if the spell had worked as she intended it, she'd have fixed her problem and ended it as easily as she did at the end of the episode



And all of that was accidental. Everything in Smashed and Wrecked(except the car accident) was intentional. That is the difference. She would not have said those things involving the Scoobies if she knew her words were causing that kind of trouble


She made cookies because the harm she cause was unintentional and she had no actual need to make amends but felt compelled to try, and if she had there were no actual means



I'm sorry for your loss but in the world of fiction I like vengeance in general and in the world of Buffy, I do not believe any authority figures were established as appropriate to deal with the problems the Scoobies faced. It was they act or the villains don't face real justice

Not intending to hurt her friends or other people does not make her less responsible. We are always accountable for the consequences of our actions.

If she'd killed people by speaking their deaths into reality, they'd still be dead. This is like saying if you drink and get black out drunk you're not responsible because you didn't intend to hit anyone.

The NATURE of the spell is amoral and reckless BEFORE it had any consequences.

'MY WILL BE DONE'. That is NOT a reasonable spell to cast under ANY circumstances. We are not God. There is NEVER any justifying playing god.

Intent matters. The intent she had was to get her own way. That she did not intend the 'side effects' or 'adverse effects' is like a drug manufacturer who creates a drug for one purpose knowing it has the potential to kill and not considering this before releasing the drug over the counter. Even if the thing you want to cure is something that you should be trying to cure, dangerous drugs require prescriptions and if they're really dangerous, they require administration under highly controlled environments. (For example radiation drugs)

The thing is this: she had NO RIGHT TO TRY TO KEEP OZ IN TOWN OR BRING HIM BACK. That was HIS choice and he made that choice for very good reasons. Even if he'd decided to leave on a whim, he would have been within his rights... but he had recognized his danger because he'd killed someone... and he'd decided he needed to face his problem.

WE do NOT get to IMPRISON our lovers when they leave.

Willow simply decided that she didn't want him gone and she was going to get her way by any means.

We are NEVER allowed to force or coerce those we love to do ANYTHING.

Further the spell was NOT limited to Oz (which would have still been wrong).

The spell was MY will be done. That is inherently AMORAL and DANGEROUS.

The spell was 'whatever I want is what should happen in the world'... THAT is pretty scary.

If you decided to leave your partner for whatever reason, would you like it if they drugged you and forced you to stay?

That is what that spell would have done. We don't alter the minds of those we love so we can get what we want. There are drugs that can make people obey you. They're illegal for a reason.

There is no excuse for abusing power just because we have it. Tyrants and despots do that. It is always wrong.

If you want to ask someone to stay, and you think you have the answer, you ask. If you cannot ask, you do NOT get to apply a magical rope and drag them back to you.

No, you cannot excuse it because the world is magical. The consequences that befell her friends were foreseeable. Because she created a situation that was by its nature dangerous and wrong.

Having the solution (which we don't see any evidence of) does not give her the right to CONTROL another human being.
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btw... vengeance wasn't justified when she did her 'my will' spell. She just wanted HER way.

Killing Warren might have been justifiable because he was so dangerous. But she was out of control. She wasn't doing anything remotely proportionate. She was out to kill anyone who got in her way including friends, and eventually the entire planet. Does this strike you as reasonable? That's not dealing with the problem. But that complete loss of control was foreseeable because of her magic abuse in the past. Because (as even Tara said) "you're using too much magic".

_____________

There were others with power... Buffy, Angel and even the council. Even the council recognized there had to be limits on their power. And they weren't even 'good'. Buffy could have gone after anyone who she did not like. She had the power to kill whomever she wanted and because of who strong she was, she probably could have managed to get away with murder. Except for the lawyers in the cellar, Angel usually did not abuse his power. And the lawyers were actually evil. Most of the people Willow endangered were innocent. The planet could have been obliterated by her 'my will be done' spell and had Xander not stopped her, she could have burned the planet.

That is not a good track record.

 

[garfan]

Not intending to hurt her friends or other people does not make her less responsible. We are always accountable for the consequences of our actions.

the show is very inconsistent about that.

Andrew is never held accountable. Neither is Amy.

The fandom generally treats trying to hold Buffy accountable for abandoning Sunnydale at the end of season 2 as some of the worst things the Scoobies do. I say that as someone who thinks Buffy's skipping town was entirely justified

While Buffy ends up insisting Faith go to jail, if you listen to what she says when she first hears Faith is awake does this sound like someone planning to hold Faith accountable for her actions? No, they sound like the words of someone hoping they could forget the back half of season 3 and go back to the way things were before Bad Girls

Giles is never held accountable for abandoning Buffy

If she'd killed people by speaking their deaths into reality, they'd still be dead. This is like saying if you drink and get black out drunk you're not responsible because you didn't intend to hit anyone.

The NATURE of the spell is amoral and reckless BEFORE it had any consequences.

'MY WILL BE DONE'. That is NOT a reasonable spell to cast under ANY circumstances. We are not God. There is NEVER any justifying playing god.

There are times the show tries to play this. There's others it ignores it

The finale of season 7 will see her permanently redefining the nature of the Slayer line

the creation of Dawn by the monks could be seen as playing god.

ensouling a vampire seemingly involves ripping an innocent soul out of the after life and forcing them to share space with an immortal serial killer. This is treated as a dangerous act, but there is no harping on the morality

Jonathan's Superstar spell merits a minor talking to and chuckles over the ridiculousness of it. "Do I even know Jonathan?" "I felt to tall, did anyone else feel to tall?"

Also vengeance demons, who can alter the entire world with the power of the wish, are not treated as the most evil demons out there.

Also, we see times where super dark and dangerous spells are kept hidden and locked up and the Will Be Done spell isn't

Intent matters. The intent she had was to get her own way. That she did not intend the 'side effects' or 'adverse effects' is like a drug manufacturer who creates a drug for one purpose knowing it has the potential to kill and not considering this before releasing the drug over the counter. Even if the thing you want to cure is something that you should be trying to cure, dangerous drugs require prescriptions and if they're really dangerous, they require administration under highly controlled environments. (For example radiation drugs)

She had the intent to fix her problem and maybe fix Oz's, since the first attempt she tried was to heal her heart

The thing is this: she had NO RIGHT TO TRY TO KEEP OZ IN TOWN OR BRING HIM BACK. That was HIS choice and he made that choice for very good reasons. Even if he'd decided to leave on a whim, he would have been within his rights... but he had recognized his danger because he'd killed someone... and he'd decided he needed to face his problem.

WE do NOT get to IMPRISON our lovers when they leave.

Willow simply decided that she didn't want him gone and she was going to get her way by any means.

We are NEVER allowed to force or coerce those we love to do ANYTHING.

Further the spell was NOT limited to Oz (which would have still been wrong).

The spell was never even used on Oz

The spell was MY will be done. That is inherently AMORAL and DANGEROUS.

The spell was 'whatever I want is what should happen in the world'... THAT is pretty scary.

kinda like the Superstar spell, which is treated as a joke

If you decided to leave your partner for whatever reason, would you like it if they drugged you and forced you to stay?

That is what that spell would have done. We don't alter the minds of those we love so we can get what we want. There are drugs that can make people obey you. They're illegal for a reason.

There is no excuse for abusing power just because we have it. Tyrants and despots do that. It is always wrong.

If you want to ask someone to stay, and you think you have the answer, you ask. If you cannot ask, you do NOT get to apply a magical rope and drag them back to you.

No, you cannot excuse it because the world is magical. The consequences that befell her friends were foreseeable. Because she created a situation that was by its nature dangerous and wrong.

Having the solution (which we don't see any evidence of) does not give her the right to CONTROL another human being.

we also see no actual evidence of her seeking to control another human in this instance

Saying "Oz isn't a werewolf anymore," which in the likely thing she might have done isn't altering his mind

But, I have a little problem with the limits you're setting.

I'm a comic book fan, don't know how much you know them, so you might have no context for this

But if Betty Ross was working on a cure for the Hulk at home, while Bruce was traveling the world trying to find cure, and she found one then asked Dr. Strange to teleport Bruce back to administer it, I'd be pretty okay with that storyline

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btw... vengeance wasn't justified when she did her 'my will' spell. She just wanted HER way.

She wasn't doing vengeance with the my will be done spell.

Killing Warren might have been justifiable because he was so dangerous. But she was out of control. She wasn't doing anything remotely proportionate. She was out to kill anyone who got in her way including friends, and eventually the entire planet. Does this strike you as reasonable? That's not dealing with the problem. But that complete loss of control was foreseeable because of her magic abuse in the past. Because (as even Tara said) "you're using too much magic".

I don't think she ever tries to burn the entire planet with Giles interference

_____________

There were others with power... Buffy, Angel and even the council. Even the council recognized there had to be limits on their power. And they weren't even 'good'. Buffy could have gone after anyone who she did not like. She had the power to kill whomever she wanted and because of who strong she was, she probably could have managed to get away with murder. Except for the lawyers in the cellar, Angel usually did not abuse his power. And the lawyers were actually evil. Most of the people Willow endangered were innocent. The planet could have been obliterated by her 'my will be done' spell and had Xander not stopped her, she could have burned the planet.

That is not a good track record.

I consider the entire Wolfram& Hart plot for Angel season 5 him abusing his power. I don't think the Council recognized limits on their power


I think Buffy limited herslef to much

 

[hoponlilmama]

She made cookies because the harm she cause was unintentional and she had no actual need to make amends but felt compelled to try,

The old, "I didn't mean to hurt you" line but make no mistake, Willow was lucky things didn't really go bad. Giles blinded - which may not have been able to be reversed, or could've been seriously injured. Anya and Xander's lives at risk becoming demon magnets.

Admittedly, Something Blue is one of my favourite episodes and one of the funniest, and that comedic layer lessens the impact of what Willow has done.

Yes, Willow cast the spell on herself to try and heal her heartbreak, but she still doesn't grasp the ramifications of what magic can bring.

What happens if in another moment of anger over Oz leaving she'd said, "I wish he'd die" - and bam - her will be done.

 

[NotASlayer]

What happens if in another moment of anger over Oz leaving she'd said, "I wish he'd die" - and bam - her will be done.

And wish magic is chancy stuff, both in show, other series (there's a black humour X-Files episode about a genie) and in legend. Who knows how that might have been done?

 

[hoponlilmama]

And wish magic is chancy stuff, both in show, other series (there's a black humour X-Files episode about a genie) and in legend. Who knows how that might have been done?

I remember a little of that episode now you mention it! (X-Files fan - but haven't watched it since its original run).

You're right though, that particular magic (well, all magic really, especially for those who don't have a really stromg grasp on it) can be chancy and vague.

 

[HowiMetdaSlayer]

There is also the issue that in seasons four and five Tara and Willow were "doing magic" together. Having magic suddenly become a dirty and disgusting thing done in crack houses that no right thinking person would do... well, that has lovely undertones.

Crack house magic - *giggles* ☺️

 

[garfan]

The old, "I didn't mean to hurt you" line but make no mistake, Willow was lucky things didn't really go bad. Giles blinded - which may not have been able to be reversed, or could've been seriously injured. Anya and Xander's lives at risk becoming demon magnets.

Admittedly, Something Blue is one of my favourite episodes and one of the funniest, and that comedic layer lessens the impact of what Willow has done.

Yes, Willow cast the spell on herself to try and heal her heartbreak, but she still doesn't grasp the ramifications of what magic can bring.

What happens if in another moment of anger over Oz leaving she'd said, "I wish he'd die" - and bam - her will be done.

Look, they've just asked her to do to much dangerous stuff for them for me to be comfortable with all this what if stuff denying her any ability to use her skills for her beneft. It's the whole burdens without benefits thing I mentioned

She was just as likely to get the spell right and fix her problems as she was all these but things could be so much worse everyone is coming up with

 

[hoponlilmama]

Look, they've just asked her to do to much dangerous stuff for them for me to be comfortable with all this what if stuff denying her any ability to use her skills for her beneft. It's the whole burdens without benefits thing I mentioned

I agree. I mean you look at the soul restoration spell and for a young, inexperienced witch that's not beginner's level stuff.

That being said, I stand by my previous statement. There's so many things that can go wrong with magic. And we see it not only with Willow.

Guess it also shows casting spells when your're overly emotional isn't the best decision.