Would You Have Done the Same?

[zobothehobo]

If that is kindness than I truly have no taste for it. Pain and suffering is part of life. Like your boy said, "Life isn't bliss, life is just this. It's living." Willow had no right to do what she did. She wanted to end her pain and was going to take everyone else with her. That is not kind. It is incredibly selfish.

There's a line in one of my favorite songs that goes like this "she felt so out of touch, 'cause she just felt too much." Think about feeling everyone's pain. Not just your own pain and suffering (which for Willow was A LOT) at this point... But EVERYONE in the entire world. Now thinking about feeling that much pain if you had the power to stop it. Willow trying to destroy the world was an act of kindness. I mean obviously it was misguided and not the way to go about dealing with feeling all of that... but she wanted to make pain and suffering end and just like you said pain and suffering is part of life... therefore, the only way to end pain and suffering is to end life. She didn't just "want to end her pain and take everyone else with her." She wanted to end everyone's pain and suffering.

 

[Kean]

There's a line in one of my favorite songs that goes like this "she felt so out of touch, 'cause she just felt too much." Think about feeling everyone's pain. Not just your own pain and suffering (which for Willow was A LOT) at this point... But EVERYONE in the entire world. Now thinking about feeling that much pain if you had the power to stop it. Willow trying to destroy the world was an act of kindness. I mean obviously it was misguided and not the way to go about dealing with feeling all of that... but she wanted to make pain and suffering end and just like you said pain and suffering is part of life... therefore, the only way to end pain and suffering is to end life. She didn't just "want to end her pain and take everyone else with her." She wanted to end everyone's pain and suffering.

It isn't kindness though, it's hubris. Willow couldn't handle her pain, and could handle it even less when she absorbed the pain of the world. In that episode Willow was defined by her pain and she assumed that everyone else in the world was defined by theirs.

 

[zobothehobo]

In that episode Willow was defined by her pain and she assumed that everyone else in the world was defined by theirs.

True. And therefore, to her, it was kindness.

 

[Kean]

True. And therefore, to her, it was kindness.

I don't believe she had that kind of thought process. She wanted it to end, I don't think she gave much thought of whether it was an act of kindess or recklessness.

And I have to add, Willow's reaction to that much human pain is not all that understandable. Cordelia went through hours and hours of waves of human pain, horror and fear and her response to that avalanche of emotion was to help people, not kill them.

 

[InsaneMystic]

I don't believe she had that kind of thought process. She wanted it to end, I don't think she gave much thought of whether it was an act of kindess or recklessness.

So it's just kindness if you actually go to a thought process before? Seems a bit too Kantian to me. Say, two guys see a kid drowning in a river. One guy immediately jumps in to save the kid, the other first stands and ponders the risks and potential consequences, the flow speed of the river etc., and then, after two minutes, comes to the conclusion to jump in to save the kid. By your logic, the first one is not acting kindly, only the second one is.

The simple "A) There's pain, B) I have the power to end it, C) I will end the pain." seems kind enough to me (and it's been used for ages as an argument in the question whether or not God exists. 😉), and DarklyEmpathic!Willow arrived at that reflexively.

And I have to add, Willow's reaction to that much human pain is not all that understandable. Cordelia went through hours and hours of waves of human pain, horror and fear and her response to that avalanche of emotion was to help people, not kill them.

Then again, Cordy wasn't hard on the edge of psychotic with grief already when those waves hit her, and her personality is very different from Willow's to start with. Cordy doesn't really work an example in trying to understand the plausibility of Willow's attempt at global euthanasia.

Besides, killing people does help them... because death does end their pain, very efficiently. (Now of course, in the overwhelming majority of cases, there are better ways to help, and in any case you're always out of line forcing your idea help on people over their heads, especially if your help is of the fatal kind. That's why Willow's kindness was misguided.)

 

[prophecygrrl]

I don't think Dark Willow had any kindness left in her at all at that point. Xander had to appeal to Yellow Crayon Willow to get her to stop, and it's definitely not Yellow Crayon Willow who thinks ending the world is a way to end all pain. That's Dark Willow territory.

 

[This Year's Girl]

I think it's something really beautiful in that Willow loved Tara so much that she couldn't help but to go bad after she died. It was her way of coping. But I also think it has to do with her previous addiction and a lot of other stuff that happened in the past too.

And no, I wouldn't do that. Never. I love my husband, but I love a lot of persons in this world just as much.

 

[zobothehobo]

I don't believe she had that kind of thought process. She wanted it to end, I don't think she gave much thought of whether it was an act of kindess or recklessness.

I think you're underestimating Willow and her "goodness."

And I have to add, Willow's reaction to that much human pain is not all that understandable. Cordelia went through hours and hours of waves of human pain, horror and fear and her response to that avalanche of emotion was to help people, not kill them.

Willow and Cordelia are different people. Very different people. Who were at very different places in their lives. These two situations are incomparable. Willow had gotten addicted to magic because of the way she could snap her fingers and make it happen. Cordelia didn't have that.

And I found myself nearly wanting to cry when you said Willow's reaction isn't at all understandable. Just because I don't think you (or me) could ever imagine what kind of pain she felt. To feel the pain of every single person in the whole world... I think however one reacts to that kind of pain is understandable. Just because it's such an unimaginable amount of pain.

 

[InsaneMystic]

I don't think Dark Willow had any kindness left in her at all at that point. Xander had to appeal to Yellow Crayon Willow to get her to stop, and it's definitely not Yellow Crayon Willow who thinks ending the world is a way to end all pain. That's Dark Willow territory.

See, that's where I have to disagree. This makes it sound as if the empathy mojo didn't make any difference, and it's very obvious to me that it did. She immediately stopped the vengeance thing, that's BIG.

If Xander had given the Yellow Crayon speech to Willow before the empathy mojo, I'm certain it would have resulted in nothing else than her delaying her travel to Mexico just for the few moments it would take her to snuff the babbling Zeppo first.

 

[Kean]

So it's just kindness if you actually go to a thought process before? Seems a bit too Kantian to me. Say, two guys see a kid drowning in a river. One guy immediately jumps in to save the kid, the other first stands and ponders the risks and potential consequences, the flow speed of the river etc., and then, after two minutes, comes to the conclusion to jump in to save the kid. By your logic, the first one is not acting kindly, only the second one is.

OK, fair point.

The simple "A) There's pain, B) I have the power to end it, C) I will end the pain.

The problem with this is that it isn't Willow's pain to end. She wants to end her own pain? That's all her. She want's to end my, my family or friend's pain, then it is a very different matter.

What about all the millions, maybe billions, of people who experience pain on daily basis but it is not the all encompassing pain that Willow felt? What it is a dull ache? What if it is only temporary?

Then again, Cordy wasn't hard on the edge of psychotic with grief already when those waves hit her, and her personality is very different from Willow's to start with. Cordy doesn't really work an example in trying to understand the plausibility of Willow's attempt at global euthanasia.

Of course she counts. She not alone experienced the emotional and psychological pain but the physical pain too. And the fact that a girl who had never truly cared about anything but herself was moved to help all those people instead of believing they were better off dead, counts.

Besides, killing people does help them... because death does end their pain, very efficiently.

Killing people helps them? What about the people that want to live? Pain and all? Not everyone succumbs to the pain. I'd imagine the vast majority of people want their pain to end, not their lives.

(Now of course, in the overwhelming majority of cases, there are better ways to help, and in any case you're always out of line forcing your idea help on people over their heads, especially if your help is of the fatal kind. That's why Willow's kindness was misguided.)

I'll go along with her actions being misguided but I won't agree that they were kind actions.

---------- Post added at 10:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 PM ----------

I think you're underestimating Willow and her "goodness."

That's the thing; I don't think she is all that good and pure of heart. Once upon a time I did, but not for a good long while.

And I found myself nearly wanting to cry when you said Willow's reaction isn't at all understandable. Just because I don't think you (or me) could ever imagine what kind of pain she felt. To feel the pain of every single person in the whole world... I think however one reacts to that kind of pain is understandable. Just because it's such an unimaginable amount of pain.

I accept this point, I really do. But I still don't understand why she had to take the world with her.

 

[prophecygrrl]

See, that's where I have to disagree. This makes it sound as if the empathy mojo didn't make any difference, and it's very obvious to me that it did. She immediately stopped the vengeance thing, that's BIG.

If Xander had given the Yellow Crayon speech to Willow before the empathy mojo, I'm certain it would have resulted in nothing else than her delaying her travel to Mexico just for the few moments it would take her to snuff the babbling Zeppo first.

She already succeeded in killing Warren at that point. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you and the vengeance thing?

yeah, I think the magic Giles gave her did allow her to have some empathy. It allowed her to make human mistakes and arrive at human conclusions and stuff. But I don't think it allowed her to be kind. Or to attempt to be kind, anyway. It let her see something she couldn't handle, and she searched for a way to end it.

I think the crux of the situation is whether or not Willow was right. Ending the world is obviously a bad idea, but it's the reasoning and the thought behind it that makes our opinions different. I think her trying to end the world is selfish because it's a slap in the face to everyone who is working to make the world better, whether it's for others or for themselves. I don't see the value in ending pain the way Willow decides to. It's not worth it to me, to sacrifice all the progress and goodness in the world because at that moment, the pain is too much for her. If it was just her deciding to end her own life, that'd be a different story. I'd never judge someone for that because I don't personally know what they're going through. But (imagine that I'm a part of the world for a second 😛) she's taking my pain and is actively judging things for me. It's not her personal pain. It's mine.

 

[InsaneMystic]

She already succeeded in killing Warren at that point. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you and the vengeance thing?

Warren, yes... but after Warren, there still were "Two To Go", right? And without the empathy mojo, Xander trying to talk her out of killing Jon & Andrew would certainly not have worked. Xander would have been dead meat if he had started talking about crayons when there were still two thirds of a Trio waiting to be executed.

yeah, I think the magic Giles gave her did allow her to have some empathy. It allowed her to make human mistakes and arrive at human conclusions and stuff. But I don't think it allowed her to be kind. Or to attempt to be kind, anyway.

We clearly disagree there, then. It certainly was a twisted kind of kindness, but kindness it was - to me at least.

I think the crux of the situation is whether or not Willow was right. Ending the world is obviously a bad idea, but it's the reasoning and the thought behind it that makes our opinions different.

The question is not if she's right (as I said before, DarklyEmpathicWillow's kindness is still very misguided), but if her heart is in the right place. IMO, Willow ending the world is a perfect example of "the wrong thing for the right reasons". And that's where our opinions differ, right? 🙂

It might not matter to you (<< no evaluation/judgment implied there, just noting that's where we seem to differ in outlook 🙂), but it sure makes a huge difference to me if someone is trying to murder me for some base reason, or to euthanize me in order to put me out of my misery. Even if in both cases I wouldn't want to die, I'd sure feel sympathy rather than anger towards my killer in the latter case, in a way that wouldn't occur to me in the former. After all, it's nice that they care about my pain enough to go out of their way to kill me. (Along the lines of "I really appreciate the gesture, but..." 😉)

 

[prophecygrrl]

Warren, yes... but after Warren, there still were "Two To Go", right? And without the empathy mojo, Xander trying to talk her out of killing Jon & Andrew would certainly not have worked. Xander would have been dead meat if he had started talking about crayons when there were still two thirds of a Trio waiting to be executed.

Oh, Tucker's brother and Jonathan? I forgot about those two. Whoops. 😱

The question is not if she's right (as I said before, DarklyEmpathicWillow's kindness is still very misguided), but if her heart is in the right place. IMO, Willow ending the world is a perfect example of "the wrong thing for the right reasons". And that's where our opinions differ, right? 🙂

Oh yes, that's true about whether or not her heart is in the right place. but I think you understand her reasoning differently, or better, than I do, which is why I think whether or not she was "right" is relevant to the situation. I don't think her trying to end the world is an act of kindness in large part because I don't understand or agree with her reasons for doing it.

After all, it's nice that they care about my pain enough to go out of their way to kill me. (Along the lines of "I really appreciate the gesture, but..." )

LOL. See, for me, I'd just be really pissed if someone tried to off me! Heh, maybe I'm just ungrateful. :cute:

 

[FetalPig]

Besides, killing people does help them... because death does end their pain, very efficiently.

Stay away from my family and friends.

This is so important. Forget the "my cat has cancer, put it out of it's misery" or "my friend was run over by a bus, let's end their suffering" argument. Anyone who is in a position to judge someone else's pain, and their capability with respect to that pain, has to first get past their own idea of what that pain might be like. They have to be able to deal with their own pain, look it in the eye, breath it right through and wail to the heavens and beyond before they are even allowed to think about what another person may or may not be able for.

Damn, but i feel strongly about this.

 

[zobothehobo]

[MENTION=10617]FetalPig[/MENTION] agrees: to her it might seem like kindness but to her victims??

I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about Willow.

 

[FetalPig]

I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about Willow.

so it's a kindness to whom?

 

[brinkster130]

It really doesn't. Willow trying to end the world was an act of kindness, not one born of a vengeful or murderous mind. It's like, giving your incurably cancerous pet the injection that puts it out of its misery, just on a global scale.

Was that kindness severely misguided due to pain clouding her judgment? Hell yes. But still it was without a trace of bad intention. Dark Willow's rampage was successfully ended when Giles infused her with that global empathy mojo; he just underestimated the lengths that Grief!Willow would go through to make the pain, all the pain, end.

[MENTION=7924]InsaneMystic[/MENTION], I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts! We have such different opinions and out looks on things that it really is fascinating (in a good way 😉 ) looking at things from your POV. On that note, I just read through this thread and I am trying to see where you are coming from and have a few questions for you 🙂

What gave Willow the right to make the decision to end all pain by destroying the world and every person in it?

Isn't it arrogant to assume that you understand other peoples pain, suffering, quality of life etc?

It seems to me like she was trying to take away a very significant choice for all the people in the world, to live or to die. How is making that decision for others based on what she assumes to be true and act of kindness?

 

[LadyLavinia]

Would I have done what Willow tried to do if I had the means to? I don't know. And I find that rather scary.

What gave Willow the right to make the decision to end all pain by destroying the world and every person in it?

Isn't it arrogant to assume that you understand other peoples pain, suffering, quality of life etc?

It seems to me like she was trying to take away a very significant choice for all the people in the world, to live or to die. How is making that decision for others based on what she assumes to be true and act of kindness?

That's Willow. I think that deep down, she is a control freak who needs power to overcome her own feeling of lack of control.

 

[Marisa]

I'm with WA I would not destroy the world although I would use that power to get back at the person who killed my loved one, it wouldn't be pretty.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Anyone who is in a position to judge someone else's pain, and their capability with respect to that pain, has to first get past their own idea of what that pain might be like.

Isn't it arrogant to assume that you understand other peoples pain, suffering, quality of life etc?

DarklyEmpathicWillow had super-empathy - she was connected with everything, so she was at that moment the one person on Earth best suited to judge what your pain is like. "Nobody knows the trouble I've seen, nobody knows like Willow..." 😉
(Still, see the next paragraph...)

They have to be able to deal with their own pain, look it in the eye, breath it right through and wail to the heavens and beyond before they are even allowed to think about what another person may or may not be able for.

What gave Willow the right to make the decision to end all pain by destroying the world and every person in it?

I'm repeating myself, but that's exactly what I mean when I say her kindness was misguided. Willow was near psychotic with her own grief, so yes, that did of course massively twist her capability for judgment and eventually invalidates her logic. Of course she did not have the "right" to end the world.

I can't overlook her motivation, though. She wanted to end all our suffering, and that's something I have to give her credit for - and something that definitely wouldn't have occurred to DarkWillow without the empathy mojo.

It seems to me like she was trying to take away a very significant choice for all the people in the world, to live or to die. How is making that decision for others based on what she assumes to be true and act of kindness?

I think we may be on to something there, but it may get too philosophical. 🙂

I consider freedom of pain a very high value, and I do not consider life itself the "ultimate" value. I firmly think that there are cases of "better off dead", even though of course I agree with [MENTION=10617]FetalPig[/MENTION] though that noone else but yourself should ever have the right to decide your life is so bad that you fall into that category (as a German, I'd have to be fully history-blind not to agree there...). e.g., while I would never go around euthanizing blind people, I firmly hold that if I should ever lose my eyesight, I'll most definitely be better off dead and will make sure that my life meets its end, quickly. So, eyesight is a higher subjective value than life; happy blind people baffle me, even though I know they exist.

I think it's a generic problem with kindness - and the one problem with the Golden Rule - that we are subjective creatures and thus see everything in the world tinted by our own feelings, perceptions, values etc.. (As the most simple example - I'm an exceedingly private and introverted person, so "do unto others..." leads me to just leave people alone most of the time, which to a more sociable person of course feels like me neglecting them.) I think it isn't possible to be kind without making assumptions about what the other side wants, assumptions that will always be less than objective and tinted by what you would want in the other's situation. (Willow even did follow the Golden Rule - she tried to do unto others, all others, what she wanted to be done unto herself.)

The only way to avoid this would be a strict "hands off" stance, and while that's certainly a solidly consistent way to go, most people would consider a hypothetical third guy in the drowning kid example I gave above who sees the kid drown, but decides that it's not his job to intervene as he can't be sure the kid even wants to live just because he would want to, and just walks merrily on his way while the kid dies a rather cold and jaded person. (Don't the Scoobies get flak from many fans for not intervening enough in each other's lives in S6?)

Like [MENTION=2555]LadyLavinia[/MENTION] said, Willow is a control freak - enough to qualify as a full blown Messiah complex in this case, in fact. I ask you, though: If someone is feeling all the pain in the world, and has the means to end it, and actually decides to end it because he can - how is that not kindness? Like I said to [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] earlier, thousands of people have used exactly this argument in the question if God exists, that a kind and loving God would have to intervene to exterminate suffering.

Basically, we were just screwed in that we got stuck with a psycho Goddess in "Grave". 😉


P.S. As an interesting aside... I wonder if you considered Jasmine to be the Big Bad of AtS S4? I still have not forgiven the Fang Gang to have prevented world peace; clearly the Bad Hair Dude was that season's Big Bad. (It also helps Jaz' stance that I consider freedom of choice a convenient human illusion, when I'm sure thar in fact we are fully determinated... 😛) I suppose there'd be considerable overlap in the demographics of people considering Willow ending the world an act of kindness, and the United States of Jasminia to be paradise on Earth even if a few dozen peeps would get eaten every day. 🙂