Would you want to be friends with Willow?

[Lyri]

[MENTION=12614]thetopher[/MENTION]

Yes, every bad thing Willow does is somehow Buffy's fault, why didn't I see it?

How did you even come to that conclusion from reading my post? Like...explain?

Isn't that what you're basically saying right here?

I don't blame Buffy for every single thing.

I blame her for being a pathetic slayer. I blame her for refusing to follow her nature, for not being dedicated enough - all of which result in Willow suffering only because she chose to help Buffy. Willow doesn't have to live in Sunnydale, she doesn't have to defeat Big Bads, she doesn't have to help Buffy nor save her sorry ass nor give Buffy her life back. She does it because she loves her and because it's the right thing to do and by doing it she puts herself and her loved ones in danger. It's Buffy's bounden duty to protect her in exchange and I blame her for not keeping her end of the bargain.

I blame Buffy for lying and manipulating. Lying about the resurrection hit Willow harder than Oz's and Tara's departures, Jenny's and Buffy's deaths combined. I blame her for encouraging Willow to use magic regardless of consequences, treating her as a big gun and abandoning her when she had to face the aftereffects.

I'm not being unfair, am I? That's enough to hate a person in my opinion. Willow doesn't and I think that's incredible.

You're saying that everything that went wrong in Willow's life is because you see Buffy as a pathetic excuse of a human being.

I DO think you're being unfair, but I don't want to get into that because I've argued about with you in the past and I've just had enough. You're never going to convince me that Buffy is weak, lazy, pathetic or any other negative adjective you want to assign to her, because that's not how I see her. She's my hero, she's the person I aspire to be like, has been since I was 13 years old, but I can still admit that she made mistakes and made wrong choices. I'm not blinkered or stupid. I just choose to focus on the positives rather than the negatives.

Willow made her own choices. She didn't HAVE to resurrect Buffy, but she wanted to, she didn't HAVE to be Buffy's 'big gun' but she wanted to. She didn't HAVE to save magic, but she wanted to. Willow could have made a hundred different choices, all of which could have taken her away from Buffy and back to her normal life, if that was what she wanted. But it wasn't.

I'm done with this subject now, because I'm never going to change my opinion, and at this point, I'm just repeating myself. I'd rather just go celebrate my birthday, cheers.

 

[thetopher]

You give the impression from your post that you think Buffy is responsible for all Willow's pain and bad choices- key word there being choices.

So, you seem to think that Buffy manipulated Willow into becoming addicted to magic? Well, that's some forward planning right there, since that started way back in Season 2.
Willow tells Buffy about the spell to re-ensoul Angel. everyone discusses it and argues about things. And then Willow says excitedly- 'I can do this'.
This character theme continues through the seasons, Willow sees magic pretty much as a big stick to hit the other (bad) guy with, no regard to the consequences, unlike Tara (and Giles to a lesser extent) who view magic in a more balanced way, as a tool to help.
Willow thinks she's not useful without magic (not true).

And Buffy lying about her ressuresction hurts Willow? How? As soon as Willow finds out the truth she's like 'I can fix this', magic to her is the be all and end all. It's a personal flaw and has nothing to do with Buffy.
Buffy didn't ask for anyone to ressurect her, so why should she be blamed for the results?
I think you can blame Buffy for a lot of things (ignoring Willow's problem in S6- fine, but it was a problem way before then) but not how Willow ended up.
Willow has her own character flaws and failings, she's not just Buffy's sidekick. Things that happen to her she mostly brought on herself (Tara leaving, for example).
I'm really tired of people going out of their way to give Willow a pass for all the crap she pulled. Her obnoxious character traits in S6 have nothing to do with Buffy. She's just arrogant, like people who are weak and then get power often are.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=6332]Lyri[/MENTION]

You're saying that everything that went wrong in Willow's life is because you see Buffy as a pathetic excuse of a human being.

Nowhere in any of my posts in this thread I said that I blame Buffy for everything that went wrong in Willow's life. Stop making stuff up. Stop projecting. Still, I think that Buffy's decisions did cause a lot of pain in Willow's life and I think that Willow has the right to resent Buffy because of that. That is all I said in this thread. I'm completely baffled by your overly emotional reaction.

You're never going to convince me that Buffy is weak, lazy, pathetic or any other negative adjective you want to assign to her, because that's not how I see her. She's my hero, she's the person I aspire to be like, has been since I was 13 years old, but I can still admit that she made mistakes and made wrong choices.

Why do you think that I'm trying to convince you of anything? Jesus, stop taking it so personally, I don't care.

I'm done with this subject now, because I'm never going to change my opinion, and at this point, I'm just repeating myself. I'd rather just go celebrate my birthday, cheers.

If you don't want to take part in the discussion then why did you even write this post? Also, that snide, passive aggressive remark at the end - uncool.
[MENTION=12614]thetopher[/MENTION]

You give the impression from your post that you think Buffy is responsible for all Willow's pain and bad choices

Your impression is completely incorrect.

And Buffy lying about her resurrection hurts Willow? How?

When a best friend lies to you like that, it's painful. It means that they don't trust you, possibly don't love you anymore. It's super-painful when that best friend is the most important person in your life.

I think you can blame Buffy for a lot of things (ignoring Willow's problem in S6- fine, but it was a problem way before then) but not how Willow ended up.

And where did I blame Buffy for how Willow ended up?

I'm really tired of people going out of their way to give Willow a pass for all the crap she pulled.

Me too. You know, that ugly big ass thread about Willow altering Tara's memories - that's on me.

 

[thetopher]

So, clearly we're talking at cross-purposes. I may have misconstrued some of your meaning, so lets concentrate on the thing we seem to disagree on.

When Willow finds out that Buffy lies in 'OMWF' she clearly devastated, the look on her face says it all. But by Tabula Rasa' Willow's all ready to 'fix' Buffy with magic to make her feel better. Surely if she's as upset and heartbroken as you seem to think she is (you compare her state of mind as to when Oz or Tara left her) then Willow would try and fix herself, not Buffy or Tara. She tried this is 'Something Blue', but she's a much more powerful and focused witch now- why not fix herself?
The answer, Willow at this point is concerned about Buffy not being happy, she also about controling how other people feel but that's another story.
Remember how much in denial Willow was when she saw an obviously traumatized Buffy back from the dead- she kept on saying 'she's fine, she's fine!', Willow then went on th expect Buffy to thank her, that was her main expectation. Buffy, very self-sacrificingly, instead of hurting her friends with the truth, lies to them, thanks them, and Willow feels okay with what she did after that)
At no in the series is Willow upset with Buffy lying to her about this specific thing, I don't know where your getting it from.

Any bad feeling Willow had towards Buffy probably should've gone away after Buffy forgave Willow after she tried to end the world that one time. Anything else would just be petty. 😛

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=12614]thetopher[/MENTION]

why not fix herself?

Because, to Willow, Buffy is more important.

Willow then went on th expect Buffy to thank her, that was her main expectation

You know, If I spend 3 months trying to bring somebody from the dead, somebody who was supposedly in a hell dimension like Angel and finally managed after a ridiculously exhausting ritual I think I'd expect a thank you too. Just saying.

 

[thetopher]

So Willow uses mind-control on Buffy because she thinks Buffy is more important than her? She decides to take away Buffy's memory/free will because Buffy is what? Special to her? I'm not sure I follow your logic there.
Willow controls people in Season 6, Tara mainly, but she tries to control Buffy- she does this untimatly because she thinks she's right and her opinion is more important than theirs- ergo she's more important than them- that's logical (also its an obvious character flaw).

And the resurrection thing- pretty much the first thing Willow wants when Buffy comes back is credit- she wants it from Buffy and from Giles- she wants people to respect her and admire her power (which is why she lied about the composition of the spell- so she wouldn't have to deal with all those other bothersome opinions getting in the way. 😉).
That's just...warped. There's no other way to look at it. Buffy's well-being/mental health are secondary in Willow's mind to her own acheivments.. Gee, what a lovely friend.
So, no, I don't think a 'thank you' is the least she can expect- but she gets it anyway, because to Buffy Willows feelings matter more than her own. She keeps the secret so as not to hurt her friends.

 

[Vorchan]

My opinion on Willow is that she loves but wrongly, but she is still a very loving young woman... she does so many bad things in season 6 it's not even funny.
In my eyes her behavior is worse than most of your perspectives of her, but as I said: yes, I would want her as a friend- not because of her mystical power, but in spite of it!
Her 'friends' are not real friends of hers when they try to get her Back on the magical influence; it's like telling your 'steroid-addicted sister' "it's OK for you to take these drugs, we really need you to do so, we'll pull you back out of it when it's all over" that's really disgusting! (I am talking about the magic addiction and Willow's scooby friends telling her to engage in magic- knowing that she simply cannot stop when she gets going.)
My take, that's what that is.
No friend would ever ask an addict to take what the addict is addicted to- EVER!!!!!
It's a genuine pleasure, to speak here that is.

 

[thetopher]

I'm not sure the comparison translates, after all Giles and Tara use magic and they don't become addicts, they're fine. Are we now saying that magic is automatically addictive?

Willow was naturally talented, yes. But the addiction was obviously part of her personality- feeling special, powerful, calling the shots in the group. The signs are there right from S2.
But then again I hate the teeth-gratingly bad 'magic-equals-drugs' metaphor that S6 came up with rather than have Willow addicted to power. (which is obviously where they were going subplot-wise)

Oh, btw- I adore Willow's lesbian behaviour! 😛

 

[Vorchan]

I'm not sure the comparison translates, after all Giles and Tara use magic and they don't become addicts, they're fine. Are we now saying that magic is automatically addictive?

Willow was naturally talented, yes. But the addiction was obviously part of her personality- feeling special, powerful, calling the shots in the group. The signs are there right from S2.
But then again I hate the teeth-gratingly bad 'magic-equals-drugs' metaphor that S6 came up with rather than have Willow addicted to power. (which is obviously where they were going subplot-wise)

Oh, btw- I adore Willow's lesbian behaviour! 😛

Sir, addictions hit different people to a differring degree of promptness; it's almost as if Willow has the propensity to be an alcoholic (I think that's the link Joss is trying to make), I have relatives who have that alcoholism in their personality- they cannot have alcohol no matter what... some people are like that.
It seems, and I could be wrong in this, but Joss indicated that magic-equals-drugs is what the writers were trying to say,. but they also made it out to imply sex-acts (which in my eyes is worse- maybe I am being irrational about the reproductive gift humanity has, but I am just plain uncomfortable with physical intimacy)- the deeds, not the anology.- my views.
You Sir, are totally allowed your opinions, I disagree about her behavior (laying with girls in the marital sense) being anything but bad. (my views- honest, respectfully, and politely put.)

 

[Blaze]

Sir, addictions hit different people to a differring degree of promptness; it's almost as if Willow has the propensity to be an alcoholic (I think that's the link Joss is trying to make), I have relatives who have that alcoholism in their personality- they cannot have alcohol no matter what... some people are like that.
It seems, and I could be wrong in this, but Joss indicated that magic-equals-drugs is what the writers were trying to say,. but they also made it out to imply sex-acts (which in my eyes is worse- maybe I am being irrational about the reproductive gift humanity has, but I am just plain uncomfortable with physical intimacy)- the deeds, not the anology.- my views.

Let's be honest here, the writers were like a bunch of fish out of water flip flopping between meanings for magic. In s4, magick is a metaphor for sex. Not bad sex like you're saying, not some awful sort of intimacy, but some healthy intimate moment between Willow and Tara. And the only reason they used magick as a metaphor for sex is because they couldn't get passed any sensor at the time to show the relationship in any other way.

In s6, magick is a metaphor for addiction, again this was very clear. No metaphor for sex or intimacy anymore.

In s7, they realized they cornered themselves with the addiction metaphor so they changed the rule. Magick is no longer an addiction, it's part of Willow. Beyond this point it's not suppose to be viewed as sex or as alcohol or as anything else, were suppose to see it as a power that is inside Willow, not matter what she does. This doesn't relate to drugs in any way anymore, which is why they got away with people wanting her to do magick again. And yes, I think it was poorly executed but that's the story they decided to tell.

You Sir, are totally allowed your opinions, I disagree about her behavior (laying with girls in the marital sense) being anything but bad. (my views- honest, respectfully, and politely put.)
To put it bluntly- you think her dating girls is sweet?😱

Honest maybe, but not respectful nor polite.

 

[thetopher]

Yeah, I never got the magic-equals-drugs metaphor, it was just bad writing.

The writers did paint themselves into a corner because neither Tara or Giles seem to have any negative consequences to using magic, therefore is must be Willow's problem.

Oh, and for the record, my opinion is that any positive, rewarding sex between two consenting adults who love each other is very sweet. 🙂

And morality that says otherwise is, imo totally wrong. Just sayin'.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Let's keep on topic folks. Thanks 🙂

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Yes, I think I would like to be her friend, even during later seasons.

After season 3 she is a little more manipulative sometimes, that I agree with. She's also a little more self-absorbed. I think arrogance is a little harsh though. I don't see that at all in seasons 4-5 and not more than half way through season 6 either (which is where I'm at currently). I'm sorry, I don't see what everyone is talking about. Whatever might be termed arrogant in S6 so far seems wrapped up in her magic addiction. But she's not herself while addicted to magic. She's definitely a flawed person by the later seasons (and she's lost all of her early innocence) but the term arrogant strikes me as inaccurate.

Anyway, I think if I were her peer I would want to be her friend. She definitely seems self-absorbed (maybe that is what gets confused with the idea that she thinks she's better than others...but I see her rather as too wrapped up in herself) but I'm okay with it. My policy on friendship (ie what I tell anyone who gets close to me) is that I will be your friend as long as you want me to be your friend. The moment you decide you no longer want to be my friend feel free to leave me. I promise I won't take offense or judge you or anything. There are no strings attached with me. I don't need anything from anyone. So maybe what I should say is that if Willow wanted to be my friend, I'd be cool with it. I'd tell her what I tell everyone else (and she would hopefully feel no pressure to be honest with me if she no longer wanted my company) and it would last as long as it was meant to last and I would try and by a valuable friend while it lasted. With that understanding in place I could be friends with Willow or most other people too.

And yes, Willow is very flawed by later seasons but I've never been interested in judging people so I think we would be fine.

And I would enjoy observing her and watching her make all of those really emotive expressions she makes with her face. I love her facial expressions. I could watch them for hours and never get bored. For that reason alone I could look past her flaws.

 

[Fuffy]

Honestly, yes:
I would become friends with her because it would help both of us with our weaknesses (Willow could help me with papers and such since I'm quite messy (she seems like she has good strategies when it comes to that sort of thing) while I could help her fix her relationship issues with Tara by talking to her about how erasing your girlfriends memory of your most recent argument will just make things worse, not better.

 

[Under Her Spell]

MORE than friends, but she doesn't swing that way anymore. 🙂 But that's fine by me. She belongs with Tara. But anyway, would I want to be friends with my favorite character? In a heartbeat, yes. True, some of her flaws become more apparent later on, but I don't like to judge (we all have our flaws, every BTVS character is flawed through and through) and I have never stopped loving her as a character all the way through from 'Welcome to the Hellmouth' to 'Chosen', so it'd be pretty easy to still want to be her friend through even the toughest, most uncertain times. I figure that's when she would need a friend the most, anyway. Willow is a really good person, smart, sweet and she obviously cares deeply for her friends. I am reminded of all the great things she's done for Buffy (playing cupid to Buffy and Riley, despite her own heartbreak; being a should Buffy could cry on; giving Parker a severe talking-to; emotional support, protection spells, etc.). Who WOULDN'T want to be friends with Willow?

Would be fun to be a part of the Scoobie gang too. I could see that I would get on well with Xander and Tara, too.

 

[YummySushiPJs]

Oh! NO thanks!

Awesome character. Awful person.

She hides behind the "I'm shy and quirky and whoops! I did a spell wrong and nearly killed you all - aren't I cute?" attitude, but it doesn't stop her being a dick.

(I wouldn't be so judgemental in real life, but since this is a fictional TV character.)

 

[Mr Trick]

In the later seasons maybe less so, but you have to take an overview of the character throughout the show and from that point of view 100% I think she would be a cool friend to have. She is loyal, funny, sensitive, very intelligent. I could talk culture with her, books, films, TV, art etc.. hang out in coffee shops, we can exchange comments on each others creative sides too. Not to mention she is my favourite character of the Buffyverse so **** yeah I would be her friend!😛

 

[Misha]

I've actually had friends like Willow. Shy, nerdy who grow into their own thing, sometimes making bad choices. It's human nature, and I probably would have been friends with her in high school. I like people I can talk to, so yeah. But I've also had the pleasure of being used one too many times, so later Willow is a bit hard to say. I'd try to help, but if she treated me like she's treated some of the other Scoobies/Tara, it would depend on how close we were.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Oh God no. Too much responsibility. I can't deal with someone who does that much self-identification through the people in her life. Who gets all her self-validation via others. And when that doesn't work anymore turns to other means to make herself feel empowered, better than everyone else...whatever you want to call it. And instead of dealing with things uses magic to make it all go away and solve her problems.

Willow doesn't really need friends though, she needs a damn good shrink.

 

[Riderofapocalypse]

I'm going to be selfish and say that only once she knew or practiced magic. She would be so useful in so many areas (yes my head is also in the gutter wit h what she could cook up for me). But yeah I would be Willow's friend. I'd be nice and help her and such like a friend, but oh I'd bug her for all kinds of magical favors.