Xander - a murderer too!!!

S

Spike Lover

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Recently, and rightly so, there has been a huge hullaballoo about willow being a murderer (Warren and Rack) adn what punihsment, if any, she should receive.
But i would just like to make the point that xander, for example, is a murderer too, if so indirectly.
HE raised Sweet, the musical demon in Once More With Feeling, causing at least one man to combust!
Should he get punished?!
I just wanted to present another angle on the issue!
To see my views on willow and punishment go to the official discussion of "Two To Go" - UK, but my point here is this:
Where do you draw the line? You could say that xander is a killer too, although defiently not malicious or evil, but still - most say even if it is an accident, you should pay . . . not necessarily my way fot hinking but still . . .

YOUR VIEWS?
 
No because Xander didn't kill the guy himself, sweet did. It was done as a result of Xander's actions but not by Xander's hands
 
What xander did was completely different to what willow did. Xander didn't murder anybody. It would be better to compare willow and faith.
 
Originally posted by Charlie Angel
What xander did was completely different to what willow did. Xander didn't murder anybody. It would be better to compare willow and faith.
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I agree totally with that. Isn't really an issue of Xander being a murderer.
 
I definetly agree theres a difference to willow and xander. I cant really compare faith and willow for a number of reasons:

1. Faiths killing was defineltly an accident, willows wasnt, although faith continued down the bad path.

2. Faith was always bad-ass - willow is like a completely different person.

Next, on to original thread point: I have read a lot of views on the boards that say even if someone kills by accident, they should get punished as its still wrong. He raised Sweet who killed a man, so therefore, he indirectly killed. But, i know, its definetly not the same as willow!

😉
 
that's like saying that since Buffy slept with Angel, and Angel killed some people when he was bad again, BUFFY was the murderer. It doesn't make logical sense.
 
Originally posted by Spike Lover
1. Faiths killing was defineltly an accident, willows wasnt, although faith continued down the bad path.

2. Faith was always bad-ass - willow is like a completely different person.
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Your contradicting yourself with the first point, his was an accident as well although he didn't actually carry it out, so why scrap faith off when she has actually killed and xander hasn't accident or not.

When was faith always a bad ass? Were you watching a different season 3 to me??? She turned when she realised she couldn't go back and act differently, the girl was in denial. She was a slayer beforehand and she wasn't evil then, she had a completely dfferent background and experienes, her character was quite "out there" but it certainly wasn't evil.

Also I meant it would be better to compare faith and willow because they both have killed people and they are humans themselves. Also that they both got a taste for killing after they murdered their first person. They both had power>faith's slaying, willow's magic.

I didn't mean it in the way that willow and faith's situations are the same but they are both killers and human. Xander however has never killed anyone so comparing faith and willow would make much more sense than Xander, I would have thought that was obvious. 🙄 I don't see how you can dismiss faith but argue that xander is a murderer!
 
Originally posted by Charlie Angel


Your contradicting yourself with the first point, his was an accident as well although he didn't actually carry it out, so why scrap faith off when she has actually killed and xander hasn't accident or not.

When was faith always a bad ass? Were you watching a different season 3 to me??? She turned when she realised she couldn't go back and act differently, the girl was in denial. She was a slayer beforehand and she wasn't evil then, she had a completely dfferent background and experienes, her character was quite "out there" but it certainly wasn't evil.

Also I meant it would be better to compare faith and willow because they both have killed people and they are humans themselves. Also that they both got a taste for killing after they murdered their first person. They both had power>faith's slaying, willow's magic.

I didn't mean it in the way that willow and faith's situations are the same but they are both killers and human. Xander however has never killed anyone so comparing faith and willow would make much more sense than Xander, I would have thought that was obvious. 🙄 I don't see how you can dismiss faith but argue that xander is a murderer!
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Ok, totally NO.
Firstly, when i said faith was always 'bad ass', i meant "out there", as you put it. NEVER did i mean evil, just rebellious, if you want to put it like that.
Secondly, soorrreeeee, lol. I didnt dismiss faith OR incriminate xander!? I was merely suggesting another view point to the whole idea of warren deserving it, willows punishment, and the whole theme of killing humans in the show.
I was always just suggesting another view point (and indeed, controversially - it seemed to have worked! lol), never did i state EVER that this was my point of view. I just trying to create a wider picture on where you draw the line.
 
Originally posted by gman992
Of course, this all begs the question of whether or not Warren deserved it?

Gman992
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I dont know about deserve, of course that begs the old question of Vigilantism, wrong or right, is the person that takes revenge on someone that did something to you does that give you a reason to decide their punishment.

the worst part was that whether or not he deserved it i dont think that lessens in anyway the blood thirst that Willow showed, and she far more cruel than anything Warren did.
 
Cruel? i prefer the word 'evil' lol! I think willow wasnt really willow, and having seen "Grave" and how she broke down at the end, i ::heart:: her too much again to see her suffer too much next season! Lol.

😉
 
A thing to add to comparing Willow and Faith: Faith kind of came to enjoying killing, or at least she pretended to. But Willow didn't kill Warren just because she thought it would be fun. She did it out of grief and vengeance. Faith wasn't avenging anyone, but Willow on the other hand was (in her mind) trying to makeup for Tara's death, although nothing will ever make up for it. Does that even make sense? Ok, it must be getting late...
 
Lol, you have babbling syndrome - ask Lily for details! Lol.
No, i see what you mean. You are arguing my point - they are not really similar.
See all my other views above!

😀
 
Thats very true. I think giles is a murderer. But i look at it as if he murdered glory, another demon. One human (who wasnt the nicest guy himself, it has to be said) for, like, the whole world! But of course, if i dont wanna contradict all my previous thoughts, you're right. I agree with you. Giles is a murderer. Simple as that.
 
Hey, hello, does anybody remember that 5th season episode where they were in the RV and Buffy jumped on top of it and was cutting, and slashing, and hacking and then she picked up that ax and threw it and got that guy in the chest? And they were falling off the RV like flies? They were humans and I bet you a couple of them died.

But Buffy was doing it in self-defense. Does that make her a murderer?
 
o.k if you think about it all of them at one point or another had either murders someone, tried to kill someone, or caused someone death, directly or indirectly. the only one who is innocent of that would be Tara and Dawn( still out on that).


Xander- showed no remorse over his part at summoning the demon " sweet" in "once more with feeling" even though he knew people died because of it. (note: was he going to let Dawn take the fall? he knew he had summon "sweet" yet, he didn't speak up until the last minute.)


Anya-Killed many (indirectly) in her days as a vengeance demon. Tried to kill Giles (directly, in the "wish")

Willow- killed two humans, Warren and Rack and tried to turn Dawn back. She also tried to kill the whole world. (directly)

Spike -killed two slayer, and maybe countless others (directly)- but he's a vamp, they are suppose to be dark.

Giles-killed a very human Ben (directly)in the "Gift." may have been others in his past as the "Ripper'.

Buffy-attempt murder on a very human slayer, "Faith ". TWICE. Once on BTVS and then follow her to L.A on "Angel". Would have succeed, if Angel haven't intervene. (directly) might have killed or caused the death of the "Knights" in "weight of the world" (indirectly). All of the scoobies have something to atone for.

Tara and Dawn are the only one (so far) who haven't cause someone to die.


Note: Buffy told Willow that it was wrong to kill a human. Yet, she tried to kill Faith.
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Originally posted by Spike's Princess
o.k if you think about it all of them at one point or another had either murders someone, tried to kill someone, or caused someone death, directly or indirectly. the only one who is innocent of that would be Tara and Dawn( still out on that).
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Thats my point. They have done a hell of a lot of good, but have also killed innocent people along the way . . . as well as a lot more un-innocent people too!

Xander - youre right, he didnt even think about the people he "killed" - we only saw the 1 man but there couldve been more!

Anya - she was a demon. enough said.

Spike - Yes, exactly, he was a vampire, that goes without saying.

Willow - yup, when she was evil, she murdered, so i think we're gonna see her struggle to copy with the consequences - ie guilt, her conscience.

Giles - Already spoke about ben. I actually doubt that he directly killed anyone as ripper. Just coz he was rebellious, he was still the same person inside. But you could argue that if he could kill ben, maybe the real giles is capable of hurt and death ??? Just a thought. We know he was involved when the demon he worshipped for a while posessed one of their gang and killed him (that happened, yes? The guy was killed?!).

Buffy - yes, but all the humans killed were bad and was to protect herself/others, but still murder.

Angel'sLuv - i assume you are referring to the knights in "The Weight of the World", as mentioned by Spike's Princess (RV?! ???)
Yes, she did murder 'bad' humans,in self-defence and to protect others and herself.

This whole issue is one which could be examined in many ways and depending on your point of view, yes, basically all of them are murderers!
 
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