Xander and Spuffy

[sosa lola]

I've posted this years ago, but since we have new fans here, I'd like them to read my thoughts on Xander's different reactions to the idea of Buffy and Spike in different parts of the show:

Xander's Reaction Before Hell's Bells:

In Intervention, Xander and Anya saw Buffybot (thinking it was Buffy) having sex with Spike. His reaction was quite understanding and sympathetic. I believe that since things were going so well in Xander's life, he was able to see more objectively and rationally. Xander had the girlfriend, the steady job and the apartment, he's got it all now, which is why he was well-headed enough to accept Buffy's "fling" with Spike. "No one is judging you. It's understandable."

Xander's Reaction after Hell's Bells:

Xander had taken the news hard, made a big fuss, because things weren't 5 by 5 in Xander's life. He's been going through depression since the demon violated his mind in Hell's Bells. He lost Anya, he lost his self-respect, he started drinking, his apartment looked like a dumpster, and Anya wouldn't give him a second chance. Not to mention, he learned about Buffy and Spike after he saw Anya having sex with Spike, so two blows in the same night for a depressed man? Yep, depressed man acts crazy. Depression does that to you, ask Buffy.

Xander's Reaction Post-S6 but Pre-Conversation with Dead People:

Xander wasn't happy about Spike being back in their lives, but he didn't make that much of a fuzz. There wasn't that much of hostility when Spike came back with a soul. Xander was still upset about the attempted rape, which is justified, but he didn't attempt to push Spike away against Buffy's will. A few heated discussions with Buffy and snide remarks at Spike, which was still a progress from the axe of last year. Things changed so much after Xander was placed in the same position Buffy was in in Becoming. Anya was murdering people in Selfless, and she needed to be dealt with. Buffy decided to kill her, and now Xander could understand what Buffy went through that time. That helped him gain a sense of understanding towards Buffy's feelings for Spike, and enabled him to accept taking Spike in later in the episode Him.

Xander's Reaction Post-Him:

All the negativity seemed to have vanished. There were a lot of incidents that showed Xander seeing the picture with unbiased eyes, his new found trust in Buffy's choices and decisions regarding Spike made him a more supportive and understanding friend. He could see now beyond the hate and anger, he was able to see when others (Anya, Dawn and even Willow) weren't able to. When Spike started killing (under the control of the First) Dawn and Anya wanted him out, Willow figured that William the Bloody was back, however, Xander thought that Spike was triggered. It wasn't Spike's fault.


So, this was a gradual character-development for Xander Harris, whose progression needs to be seen through a telescope. It is hard to see how much Xander has grown and changed at first viewing of the series, unless you're a hardcore Xander fan, which I am.

 

[bespangeled]

Nicely done - one thing though. Xander didn't lose Anya - he threw her away, and while he may have wanted a second chance I really see why she moved on (as everyone told her to do). If Xander had just lost her there would have been far less self loathing involved.

 

[gite63]

So, this was a gradual character-development for Xander Harris, whose progression needs to be seen through a telescope.

Finally, he is no more the "scared, insecure little boy", as Anya said. Even when his life - love life - isn't going well, he doesn't project it onto the others. And, as the one "that sees everything", he sees that Buffy is happy.

 

[jom]

I've posted this years ago, but since we have new fans here, I'd like them to read my thoughts on Xander's different reactions to the idea of Buffy and Spike in different parts of the show:

Xander's Reaction Before Hell's Bells:

In Intervention, Xander and Anya saw Buffybot (thinking it was Buffy) having sex with Spike. His reaction was quite understanding and sympathetic. I believe that since things were going so well in Xander's life, he was able to see more objectively and rationally. Xander had the girlfriend, the steady job and the apartment, he's got it all now, which is why he was well-headed enough to accept Buffy's "fling" with Spike. "No one is judging you. It's understandable."

Xander's Reaction after Hell's Bells:

Xander had taken the news hard, made a big fuss, because things weren't 5 by 5 in Xander's life. He's been going through depression since the demon violated his mind in Hell's Bells. He lost Anya, he lost his self-respect, he started drinking, his apartment looked like a dumpster, and Anya wouldn't give him a second chance. Not to mention, he learned about Buffy and Spike after he saw Anya having sex with Spike, so two blows in the same night for a depressed man? Yep, depressed man acts crazy. Depression does that to you, ask Buffy.

Xander's Reaction Post-S6 but Pre-Conversation with Dead People:

Xander wasn't happy about Spike being back in their lives, but he didn't make that much of a fuzz. There wasn't that much of hostility when Spike came back with a soul. Xander was still upset about the attempted rape, which is justified, but he didn't attempt to push Spike away against Buffy's will. A few heated discussions with Buffy and snide remarks at Spike, which was still a progress from the axe of last year. Things changed so much after Xander was placed in the same position Buffy was in in Becoming. Anya was murdering people in Selfless, and she needed to be dealt with. Buffy decided to kill her, and now Xander could understand what Buffy went through that time. That helped him gain a sense of understanding towards Buffy's feelings for Spike, and enabled him to accept taking Spike in later in the episode Him.

Xander's Reaction Post-Him:

All the negativity seemed to have vanished. There were a lot of incidents that showed Xander seeing the picture with unbiased eyes, his new found trust in Buffy's choices and decisions regarding Spike made him a more supportive and understanding friend. He could see now beyond the hate and anger, he was able to see when others (Anya, Dawn and even Willow) weren't able to. When Spike started killing (under the control of the First) Dawn and Anya wanted him out, Willow figured that William the Bloody was back, however, Xander thought that Spike was triggered. It wasn't Spike's fault.


So, this was a gradual character-development for Xander Harris, whose progression needs to be seen through a telescope. It is hard to see how much Xander has grown and changed at first viewing of the series, unless you're a hardcore Xander fan, which I am.

It is a very nice post. Here's the thing, ok xander went thru personal problems and insecurities as this post says, but the question is why should Buffy pay for his problems and his insecurities?.

I have heard the excuses of xander not liking angel because a friend of his got killed by a vampire, and that's very reasonable, but that's not Buffy's life, that's not buffy's experience, that's not buffy's mindset. what xander wants for himself is not what buffy wants for herself, she should not pay for whatever feeling or insecurity xander has.

 

[bespangeled]

It is a very nice post. Here's the thing, ok xander went thru personal problems and insecurities as this post says, but the question is why should Buffy pay for his problems and his insecurities?.

I have heard the excuses of xander not liking angel because a friend of his got killed by a vampire, and that's very reasonable, but that's not Buffy's life, that's not buffy's experience, that's not buffy's mindset. what xander wants for himself is not what buffy wants for herself, she should not pay for whatever feeling or insecurity xander has.

Check out Xander And Buffy's Personal Life - it's exactly what we've been talking about! 😉

 

[sosa lola]

Nicely done - one thing though. Xander didn't lose Anya - he threw her away, and while he may have wanted a second chance I really see why she moved on (as everyone told her to do). If Xander had just lost her there would have been far less self loathing involved.

I agree. That's why he went into self-loathing, he was the one who screwed things up with Anya. Losing her was his doing.

It is a very nice post. Here's the thing, ok xander went thru personal problems and insecurities as this post says, but the question is why should Buffy pay for his problems and his insecurities?.

I have heard the excuses of xander not liking angel because a friend of his got killed by a vampire, and that's very reasonable, but that's not Buffy's life, that's not buffy's experience, that's not buffy's mindset. what xander wants for himself is not what buffy wants for herself, she should not pay for whatever feeling or insecurity xander has.

True, though it's hard to control human emotions. I think a lot of people, especially those who give advice, see their own experiences and project them on other people's lives - those who they care about anyway. Xander was told since the beginning by Giles that the second Jesse was turned he was not his friend anymore, he was the demon that killed him. I think this misinformation clouded Xander's way of thinking for years.

 

[NightLady]

I've posted this years ago, but since we have new fans here, I'd like them to read my thoughts on Xander's different reactions to the idea of Buffy and Spike in different parts of the show:

Xander's Reaction Before Hell's Bells:

In Intervention, Xander and Anya saw Buffybot (thinking it was Buffy) having sex with Spike. His reaction was quite understanding and sympathetic. I believe that since things were going so well in Xander's life, he was able to see more objectively and rationally. Xander had the girlfriend, the steady job and the apartment, he's got it all now, which is why he was well-headed enough to accept Buffy's "fling" with Spike. "No one is judging you. It's understandable."

Xander's Reaction after Hell's Bells:

Xander had taken the news hard, made a big fuss, because things weren't 5 by 5 in Xander's life. He's been going through depression since the demon violated his mind in Hell's Bells. He lost Anya, he lost his self-respect, he started drinking, his apartment looked like a dumpster, and Anya wouldn't give him a second chance. Not to mention, he learned about Buffy and Spike after he saw Anya having sex with Spike, so two blows in the same night for a depressed man? Yep, depressed man acts crazy. Depression does that to you, ask Buffy.

Xander's Reaction Post-S6 but Pre-Conversation with Dead People:

Xander wasn't happy about Spike being back in their lives, but he didn't make that much of a fuzz. There wasn't that much of hostility when Spike came back with a soul. Xander was still upset about the attempted rape, which is justified, but he didn't attempt to push Spike away against Buffy's will. A few heated discussions with Buffy and snide remarks at Spike, which was still a progress from the axe of last year. Things changed so much after Xander was placed in the same position Buffy was in in Becoming. Anya was murdering people in Selfless, and she needed to be dealt with. Buffy decided to kill her, and now Xander could understand what Buffy went through that time. That helped him gain a sense of understanding towards Buffy's feelings for Spike, and enabled him to accept taking Spike in later in the episode Him.

Xander's Reaction Post-Him:

All the negativity seemed to have vanished. There were a lot of incidents that showed Xander seeing the picture with unbiased eyes, his new found trust in Buffy's choices and decisions regarding Spike made him a more supportive and understanding friend. He could see now beyond the hate and anger, he was able to see when others (Anya, Dawn and even Willow) weren't able to. When Spike started killing (under the control of the First) Dawn and Anya wanted him out, Willow figured that William the Bloody was back, however, Xander thought that Spike was triggered. It wasn't Spike's fault.


So, this was a gradual character-development for Xander Harris, whose progression needs to be seen through a telescope. It is hard to see how much Xander has grown and changed at first viewing of the series, unless you're a hardcore Xander fan, which I am.

very good analisys. it shows in not so many words that Xander is not so adverse to spuffy as so many fans believe

 

[gite63]

very good analisys. it shows in not so many words that Xander is not so adverse to spuffy as so many fans believe

Xander and Anya didn't seem to have a problem when they saw Spike and "Buffy" having sex.

Tara asked Buffy if she was in love with him and said it would be OK if she was, and she was nice to Spike after that.

Willow thought that it was hilarious of a notion, but when Tara confirmed, she didn't show any hard disapproval.

Dawn never showed any objections to Spuffy - only after Xander told her about the AR, but with time she changed her opinion, even asking Buffy if she loved him.

Giles... LOL.

Spike wanted Buffy to tell her friends, he didn't want it to be a secret:

You're addicted to the misery. It's why you won't tell your pals about us. Might actually have to be happy if you did. They'd either understand and help you, god forbid... or drive you out... where you can finally be at peace, in the dark. With me. Either way, you'd be better off for it, but you're too twisted for that. Let yourself live, already. And stop with the bloody hero trip for a sec. We'd all be the better for it.

All her friends seemed to be way more open minded than Buffy. And then, they maybe would finally see what Buffy was going through. That doesn't mean that things between Buffy and Spike would have been nice, since what she wanted was sex, and what he wanted was love - and he was a vampire without a soul after all. But maybe things would be less painful for both of them.

But then, would Spike go after his soul? In the end, I believe Joss Whedon and company knew better.

 

[jom]

Xander and Anya didn't seem to have a problem when they saw Spike and "Buffy" having sex.

Tara asked Buffy if she was in love with him and said it would be OK if she was, and she was nice to Spike after that.

Willow thought that it was hilarious of a notion, but when Tara confirmed, she didn't show any hard disapproval.

Dawn never showed any objections to Spuffy - only after Xander told her about the AR, but with time she changed her opinion, even asking Buffy if she loved him.

Giles... LOL.

Spike wanted Buffy to tell her friends, he didn't want it to be a secret:

You're addicted to the misery. It's why you won't tell your pals about us. Might actually have to be happy if you did. They'd either understand and help you, god forbid... or drive you out... where you can finally be at peace, in the dark. With me. Either way, you'd be better off for it, but you're too twisted for that. Let yourself live, already. And stop with the bloody hero trip for a sec. We'd all be the better for it.

All her friends seemed to be way more open minded than Buffy. And then, they maybe would finally see what Buffy was going through. That doesn't mean that things between Buffy and Spike would have been nice, since what she wanted was sex, and what he wanted was love - and he was a vampire without a soul after all. But maybe things would be less painful for both of them.

But then, would Spike go after his soul? In the end, I believe Joss Whedon and company knew better.

Her friends were more open minded?, i think you are blending 2 different situations. When xander and anya saw Spike have sex with buffybot and when buffy cameback from the dead, they are not related to eachother.

With the buffybott situation, all of them were questioning buffy's sanity. Xander sugested that she had being cut in two like he was, in any case they were dumbfounded.

When Buffy cameback from the dead, she was going through a lot and could not talk to her friends because they were the ones who did it to her and she didnt want them to feel bad. But this is the time when xander unleashes some his most true-self, and his despicable righteousness towards Buffy is out in the open. Who cares that xander is having a self inflicted bad time with Anya. He must understand that there's a line between friendship and single white female.

 

[sosa lola]

Her friends were more open minded?

When it came to Spike, I don't think anyone seriously wanted Buffy to be with him, including Buffy herself. They all have valid reasons for disliking the idea - after all, Spike was a soulless vampire who had tried to kill them so many times and had betrayed them in S4, not to mention tried to get the chip out in S5 and attempted to kill Buffy.

When Buffy told her mother and Willow that Spike had feelings for her, they both freaked out and told Buffy that she had to make it clear to Spike that she wanted nothing to do with him. Obviously the idea creeped Buffy out so much that Giles had to step in and threaten Spike ordering him to stay away from her.

But I do think that if Buffy really wanted to be with Spike, she'd be with him no matter what anyone thinks. Perhaps her mother and friends would object at first, but eventually they will relent and accept the fact that Buffy loves him. Buffy was with Angel despite Xander's dislike of him.

With the buffybott situation, all of them were questioning buffy's sanity.

Interesting enough Xander was very understanding of Buffy sleeping with Spike while Tara thought she was insane! 🙂

But this is the time when xander unleashes some his most true-self, and his despicable righteousness towards Buffy is out in the open. Who cares that xander is having a self inflicted bad time with Anya. He must understand that there's a line between friendship and single white female.

I disagree. Xander's true self was S5 Xander who was happy and in a good place in his life. He was rational enough to understand why Buffy would sleep with Spike and didn't judge her.

Xander after Hell's Bells was drowning in depression. He was miserable. Not to mention, he had just saw the woman he loved sleeping with Spike. He was in no way rational enough to deal with Buffy/Spike well. Then later in a matter of two days, when he calmed down and thought things through he came over to Buffy's house and apologized for his behavior and told her he understood why she didn't tell him about Spike - and that's Xander's most true-self.

 

[jom]

I disagree. Xander's true self was S5 Xander who was happy and in a good place in his life. He was rational enough to understand why Buffy would sleep with Spike and didn't judge her.

So only when he's happy can he allow Buffy be happy, only when he's happy he's his true-self, what you speak of is selfishness and not coming from someone whom you would called friend.

Xander after Hell's Bells was drowning in depression. He was miserable. Not to mention, he had just saw the woman he loved sleeping with Spike. He was in no way rational enough to deal with Buffy/Spike well. Then later in a matter of two days, when he calmed down and thought things through he came over to Buffy's house and apologized for his behavior and told her he understood why she didn't tell him about Spike - and that's Xander's most true-self.

So when he calmed down, he came to apologized. you say, But in that so called apology, he turned the tables on Buffy and said "it hurt that you didnt tell me about you and Spike, it hurt", making her apologized to him. Are you freaking serious?, "it hurt buffy, it hurt"---Single white female attitude. Is his righteousness of Buffy so dense that he can't hear himself talk?.

 

[gite63]

So only when his happy can he allow Buffy be happy, only when his happy hie' his true-self?, no i dont think so. what you speak of is selfishness and not coming from someone whom you would called friend.

Let me give my 2 cents here: Xander wasn't perfect. He had issues. Anya was right when she said he was a "scared, insecure little boy". He had anger issues, and he is dealing with it now, seeing a therapist (in the comics) - it took some time for him to do that.

 

[bespangeled]

When it came to Spike, I don't think anyone seriously wanted Buffy to be with him, including Buffy herself. They all have valid reasons for disliking the idea - after all, Spike was a soulless vampire who had tried to kill them so many times and had betrayed them in S4, not to mention tried to get the chip out in S5 and attempted to kill Buffy.

And then had risked his life to help them, and stayed true to his promise to Buffy, stayed and helped keep everyone safe, stayed and watched over Dawn - kinda think this is the real Spike here. too. The one that got tossed over as soon as he was no longer needed - by a group of people who actually all tried to kill each other more than once. But if the group had confided in him, or not tossed him aside, then Buffy would have had no one to confide in.

When Buffy told her mother and Willow that Spike had feelings for her, they both freaked out and told Buffy that she had to make it clear to Spike that she wanted nothing to do with him. Obviously the idea creeped Buffy out so much that Giles had to step in and threaten Spike ordering him to stay away from her.

That was scary creepy - Are you sure you haven't led him on? Better go by yourself and talk to the obsessed stalker.

But I do think that if Buffy really wanted to be with Spike, she'd be with him no matter what anyone thinks. Perhaps her mother and friends would object at first, but eventually they will relent and accept the fact that Buffy loves him. Buffy was with Angel despite Xander's dislike of him.

She wanted to be with him enough to rip her skirt and climb on him. But her mother was dead, and her friends were the ones who had destroyed her, who had selfishly ripped her out of heaven because they needed a slayer to do the dirty work - and when you feel like that you really do not want to trust those friends. Xander was one of those friends. Magic has consequences - and they all suffered from the consequences of using necromancy - Willow, Tara, Xander, Anya, and also Buffy and Spike who were both victimized by their necromancy and ended up victimizing each other..

I disagree. Xander's true self was S5 Xander who was happy and in a good place in his life. He was rational enough to understand why Buffy would sleep with Spike and didn't judge her.

Xander's true self doesn't include just the great times - I know my own true self doesn't. It's one thing to understand why someone does something harmful, evil, selfish, and self righteous - and Xander does all that in spades. It's another to rationalize that somehow that isn't the true person - the true Xander. The true Xander is also the large scared bully who tried to ax somebody in the back and then beat the crap out of him when he knew he couldn't defend himself for having consensual sex with the woman Xander had dumped and abandoned. That's like me saying that Spike isn't responsible for the AR and that wasn't really him. Yes, all the ugly stuff Xander did was also the real Xander.

Xander after Hell's Bells was drowning in depression. He was miserable. Not to mention, he had just saw the woman he loved sleeping with Spike. He was in no way rational enough to deal with Buffy/Spike well. Then later in a matter of two days, when he calmed down and thought things through he came over to Buffy's house and apologized for his behavior and told her he understood why she didn't tell him about Spike - and that's Xander's most true-self.

Yeah, but that doesn't change what he did. Okay - the real Xander did all those ugly things. Then he calmed down and apologized, but they are both Xander. 

So only when he's happy can he allow Buffy be happy, only when he's happy he's his true-self, what you speak of is selfishness and not coming from someone whom you would called friend.





So when he calmed down, he came to apologized. you say, But in that so called apology, he turned the tables on Buffy and said "it hurt that you didnt tell me about you and Spike, it hurt", making her apologized to him. Are you freaking serious?, "it hurt buffy, it hurt"---Single white female attitude. Is his righteousness of Buffy so dense that he can't hear himself talk?.

I have to agree - Buffy had some serious problems that season cause by Willow, but she didn't require an apology from Willow. She dropped everything to be her friend. Xander is more about - prove you are really my friend, and then I will be your friend. His problem is that she left him out, not that he let her be destroyed by one of his choices. 

Let me give my 2 cents here: Xander wasn't perfect. He had issues. Anya was right when she said he was a "scared, insecure little boy". He had anger issues, and he is dealing with it now, seeing a therapist (in the comics) - it took some time for him to do that.

That's actually a good description of the problem - Xander is a scared insecure little boy who needs therapy. I am glad he's finally getting it in the comics.

 

[sosa lola]

So only when he's happy can he allow Buffy be happy, only when he's happy he's his true-self, what you speak of is selfishness and not coming from someone whom you would called friend.

It's basic human emotions. We are all humans, we can't be rational all the time. Sometimes when life gets tough, we react badly. It happens to all the characters. Not just Xander. When your life is going well, you are coherent enough to deal with things better than when you're going through a tough break.

So when he calmed down, he came to apologized. you say, But in that so called apology, he turned the tables on Buffy and said "it hurt that you didnt tell me about you and Spike, it hurt", making her apologized to him. Are you freaking serious?, "it hurt buffy, it hurt"---Single white female attitude. Is his righteousness of Buffy so dense that he can't hear himself talk?.

He says, "It hurt," but then he follows it up with, "I understand why you didn't tell me. I didn't give you a good reason to tell me because I don't like Spike," or something of that effect.

And then had risked his life to help them, and stayed true to his promise to Buffy, stayed and helped keep everyone safe, stayed and watched over Dawn - kinda think this is the real Spike here. too. The one that got tossed over as soon as he was no longer needed - by a group of people who actually all tried to kill each other more than once. But if the group had confided in him, or not tossed him aside, then Buffy would have had no one to confide in.

I was talking about S5, but I forgot to mention that. I have to make my position clear, you don't have to sell me on Spuffy. I know Spike is a worthy character and did a lot of wonderful stuff, but when Buffy learned about his feelings in S5, that time it was before he proved himself worthy. Not to mention, he didn't take her rejection well at all: he tied her and tried to force her to "love" him and told her how she felt, not taking no for an answer - eh, that's what kids today call it Nice Guy syndrome. Anyway, his behavior in that episode shows exactly why - at that specific time - he shouldn't be trusted. I don't blame Buffy, Giles, Joyce, Willow, Xander and the others for being upset about Spike's feelings for Buffy after what he did in Crush.

He does improve with time and he will be worthy of everybody's respect by S7 - but in the middle of S5? No.

She wanted to be with him enough to rip her skirt and climb on him.

She wanted to have SEX with him, but she didn't want him as a boyfriend. She was ashamed of him, and the whole stuff about not telling her friends was just a cover, because she was too embarrassed and ashamed with herself. Even Spike called her in on that. Dawn didn't rip her off from heaven, why didn't she tell her if she really wanted to be with Spike? Not telling her friends about it was Buffy's fault. It was her choice.

Xander's true self doesn't include just the great times -

The whole true-self argument was just me replying to Jom's comment earlier when it was implied that Xander showed his true-self in S6, but his reaction to Spuffy in S5 was not his true-self. I agree that the bad and the good are all Xander.

Xander is more about - prove you are really my friend, and then I will be your friend.

I'll have to disagree with this statement. What did Willow or Jesse or Oz or Riley or Tara or Giles or Dawn had to prove to be Xander's friends?

 

[bespangeled]

I was talking about S5, but I forgot to mention that. I have to make my position clear, you don't have to sell me on Spuffy. I know Spike is a worthy character and did a lot of wonderful stuff, but when Buffy learned about his feelings in S5, that time it was before he proved himself worthy. Not to mention, he didn't take her rejection well at all: he tied her and tried to force her to "love" him and told her how she felt, not taking no for an answer - eh, that's what kids today call it Nice Guy syndrome. Anyway, his behavior in that episode shows exactly why - at that specific time - he shouldn't be trusted. I don't blame Buffy, Giles, Joyce, Willow, Xander and the others for being upset about Spike's feelings for Buffy after what he did in Crush.

He does improve with time and he will be worthy of everybody's respect by S7 - but in the middle of S5? No.

I'm not a Spuffy fan - I actually like Spangel, the long view where the humans are moments in a much longer life. I do think Buffy should avoid both of them because they are seriously high maintenance. While I don't approve of what Spike did in early season 5, I just find it very Spike. He enjoys being an a**hole, but for someone with an uncanny amount of insight at times he can also be a clueless idiot. Chaining up Buffy and offering to kill Dru is a great example - wrong on so many levels, one of them being the firm belief that Angel killed Darla and Buffy loved him, so if he killed Dru Buffy would also love him...preferably more than Angel.

She wanted to have SEX with him, but she didn't want him as a boyfriend. She was ashamed of him, and the whole stuff about not telling her friends was just a cover, because she was too embarrassed and ashamed with herself. Even Spike called her in on that. Dawn didn't rip her off from heaven, why didn't she tell her if she really wanted to be with Spike? Not telling her friends about it was Buffy's fault. It was her choice.

She wanted to feel. He wanted love. Spike loved her - but it was the same way he loved Dru. Vampire love is not healthy for humans. And Buffy cared about him eventually. Notice I do not say was in love. She hated herself for sleeping with him, for using him, and for the fact that she had come to care for him. It was the betrayal of her trust that was the worst part of the AR.

As for not telling Dawn - she wasn't even in high school yet. Granted, it was a strange world but telling your kid sister, who you are raising on your own, that you are using someone you dislike for hot monkey sex - nah. Buffy was pretty overprotective.

Yes, she was ashamed - she was ashamed of what she needed, ashamed of the changes in her, ashamed of how this whole thing had changed her. But the entire time she was sleeping with Spike she never actually talked about anything personal with the scoobs. It was the realization that she wanted to live that started her on the process of healing. Not telling was her choice - but it needed to be respected. There was a lot of not telling going on in that season.

I'll have to disagree with this statement. What did Willow or Jesse or Oz or Riley or Tara or Giles or Dawn had to prove to be Xander's friends?

I meant just that conversation. For what it's worth, I find Xander an interesting character - you can trace his issues all the way back, as you can Willow's. But he pisses me off just because I want to like him. He's a real hypocrite and I think that bothers me most of all. There are moments, and even times when he can be awesome. I suspect it's more what triggers the viewer than anything else. It also shows why BTVS is so successful. It makes you feel, and the feelings are not always pleasant.

 

[sosa lola]

I'm not a Spuffy fan - I actually like Spangel,

Hello, fellow slasher! 😀

While I don't approve of what Spike did in early season 5, I just find it very Spike. He enjoys being an a**hole, but for someone with an uncanny amount of insight at times he can also be a clueless idiot.

It makes him an interesting character. The chip, which gives him a lot of restrains, helps him observe human behavior instead of just going for the kill. Interacting with humans for so long helped his inner humanity to come out.

My point was that while it makes Spike an interesting character and that his development is happening gradually instead of just right away, his behavior makes it understandable why Buffy and her friends still don't trust him.

I find Xander an interesting character - you can trace his issues all the way back, as you can Willow's. But he pisses me off just because I want to like him. He's a real hypocrite and I think that bothers me most of all. There are moments, and even times when he can be awesome. I suspect it's more what triggers the viewer than anything else.

What you just wrote is exactly why Xander is my favorite character. My problem with the show is that it didn't focus on Xander on the same level it did with Willow and Spike. We were given bits and pieces about his homelife, his unrequited desire for Giles to be his father-figure, his skill in archery in the later seasons - you need a telescope to notice all of that. Thankfully he's a popular character in fanfiction, my favorite Xander author is Liz-Marcs. Her stuff made me and a of Xander fans very satisfied in ways the show failed to do.

As a huge Xander fan, I really hoped that "Kick His Ass" was dealt with in S3 instead of being swept under a rug for seasons. I wanted Buffy to find out that Xander lied to her and how it would have caused a rift between them, them dealing with it throughout S3, it would have been an interesting storyline for Xander. Sigh.

 

[jom]

What you just wrote is exactly why Xander is my favorite character. My problem with the show is that it didn't focus on Xander on the same level it did with Willow and Spike. We were given bits and pieces about his homelife, his unrequited desire for Giles to be his father-figure, his skill in archery in the later seasons - you need a telescope to notice all of that. Thankfully he's a popular character in fanfiction, my favorite Xander author is Liz-Marcs. Her stuff made me and a of Xander fans very satisfied in ways the show failed to do.

As a huge Xander fan, I really hoped that "Kick His Ass" was dealt with in S3 instead of being swept under a rug for seasons. I wanted Buffy to find out that Xander lied to her and how it would have caused a rift between them, them dealing with it throughout S3, it would have been an interesting storyline for Xander. Sigh.

xander never got his comeuppance, maybe if Buffy early on had cut him off from the group for a while, he would had shaped up and become season 7 xander sooner. He would had understood that friendship is not bossing and judging someone around or bluntly getting into their personal business without permission.

For xander developed a weird friendship that might had turned into a sick friendship, he demanded secrets, he demanded confessions. He righteously demanded things that are seldom given, and when given is because of a special moment and to a special person to the giver. He couldnt understand that there is an invisible line and that you are there for support when that support is asked for, and not for recriminations.

 

[sosa lola]

xander never got his comeuppance, maybe if Buffy early on had cut him off from the group for a while, he would had shaped up and become season 7 xander sooner.

I doubt it. Without Willow and Buffy in Xander's life, he'd have probably ended up like his father. Willow and Buffy are the bright spot in Xander's life, with them being his friends, he knew he was loved and helping Buffy slaying gave him a purpose and that what shaped him up to be a good man when he grew up.

However, if you meant if Buffy was upfront with him about his attitude toward Angel from the beginning, I agree. He does need to be yelled at and corrected from time to time. He did outgrow most of his bad qualities as he grew up. By S7, he was one of the most mature characters in the show.