Only kind of. It's a lifelong committment. Xander saw how well that worked out for his parents and how much that simple piece of paper and mere law damaged their relationship and his childhood. Marriage is a heck of a lot more than loving each other and living together and that is what Xander realised. He could do the loving and living together bit but marriage, while being a continuation of the same, is also altogether different. And it doesn't matter if you don't believe that would be their future; I don't either.(Well actually I think it could have been a possibility had Xander gone through with it when he felt the way he did.) What matters is that Xander did and that is why he was entitled to do something for himself, and ultimately for Anya, and not going through with it.
Xander leaving Anya at the altar - for their own good?
- Thread starter Chosen Enemy
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Only kind of. It's a lifelong committment. Xander saw how well that worked out for his parents and how much that simple piece of paper and mere law damaged their relationship and his childhood. Marriage is a heck of a lot more than loving each other and living together and that is what Xander realised. He could do the loving and living together bit but marriage, while being a continuation of the same, is also altogether different. And it doesn't matter if you don't believe that would be their future; I don't either.(Well actually I think it could have been a possibility had Xander gone through with it when he felt the way he did.) What matters is that Xander did and that is why he was entitled to do something for himself, and ultimately for Anya, and not going through with it.
Do you mean that he intended to wait until their wedding to break up with Anya? Obviously he didn't. Everybody have fears and concerns about marrige, and that's normal, Xander knew that, that's why he didn't bring them up so he wouldn't upset Anya for nothing, because he was going to marry her.
Remember what he said in the beginning of Hell's Bells? "Nothing will ever stop this marrige." That means he had no intention of breaking up with Anya before. He was going to marry her despite of those fears.
Living through those visions is a big deal. It shook him up completely. He'd liven that life before with his parents, he doesn't wanna live it again with Anya where he's the abuser.
Yes, they're not true, but when did Xander know that? Only 20 minutes before Anya suggested they should get married. No one can pull themselves together after spending hours believing that they'd grow up to be monsters and hurt the people they love. It's hard to expect Xander, who'd been abused as a child, to recover in a matter of 20 minutes and shrug it all off. It's impossible. The show deals with real emotions and issues. Xander didn't want to hurt Anya, his intentions were in the right, "It wasn't you I was hating," he said to Anya, which means he was hating himself.
Xander could have handled it better. He could have announced that the marriage won't be happening, even though at his state of mind I can't see him handling anything right at the moment.
It makes me wonder about the best man (Willow). Where was she throughout all this? She's the worst best man I've known. At least, Ross turned things upside down and helped Chandler when he was having cold feet. Xander had no one there by his side.
Taake
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zobothehobo
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brinkster130
Riley's BFF
No, I don't think that he intended to wait until their wedding day; but I do think that there were signs that made it clear that they weren't ready for marriage yet. I wish both him and Anya would have acknowledged them. Yes, everyone has concerns but part of being in an marriage is being able to talk to your partner; if Xander couldn't bring up his fears about not wanting to make the same mistakes his parents made I don't think he was ready to be married. (Same for Anya.)
The first red flag I saw is them keeping their engagement a secret for so long. Xander proposed and them instantly wanted to keep it a secret because so much was going on. For the past 3 years Xander and the scoobies have been fighting some big bad non-stop and I don't think that was ever going to stop while they were living on the Hellmouth. I think that Xanders need to hide the engagement for so long was a sign that maybe he wasn't ready.
I completely agree with you that the visions shook Xander up. I think part of the reason is was so upset by it is because those visions were exactly what his biggest fears were. Again, I wish Xander would have voiced these fears and concerns with Anya.
I agree with you about Willow, it would have been nice to see Willow talking to Xander about this. I think she would have understood what Xander was feeling and that she would have been able to help him through it.
Chosen Enemy
Losing my soul
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Xander said it wasn't about breaking up. He still wanted her, just not as his wife. Not because he didn't love her, but because he wasn't a)ready for marriage, b)didn't want to become his family. He wanted to keep dating. Then why did he propose in the first place? It was his idea, and he took it back. Would staying in dating status prevent the hurt they might feel a few years after they get married? If he knew all about his parents' history and was afraid to do the same with Anya and their family, why did he propose? It hurt Anya more than it would have if he didn't propose. She wasn't even thinking about getting married. And he obviously had doubts from the begining. And I agree that the hiding their situation from the rest has a lot to do with that. Could he have prevented Anya getting hurt and try to turn on him, if they've just stayed in dating status? He KNEW what his parents' marriage was like, ever since he was little, probably. Maybe he shouldn't have proposed at all and just stay boyfriend and girlfriend.
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zobothehobo
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I personally think Xander was too naive when he proposed. S5 was all about Xander trying to show Anya how much he loved her by buying the apartment, declaring his love for her, and what's more romantic than asking her to marry him. He was caught in the moment and didn't realize what he had done until after they defeated Glory and it became real.
I agree brinkster130 that Xander and Anya keeping their doubts inside was harmful for both of them. They should have been more honest, but I understand why they didn't, they thought that ignoring their problems would make them go away. Sadly, they didn't.
I agree brinkster130 that Xander and Anya keeping their doubts inside was harmful for both of them. They should have been more honest, but I understand why they didn't, they thought that ignoring their problems would make them go away. Sadly, they didn't.
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zobothehobo
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brinkster130
I agree that Xander was too naive when he proposed to Anya.
But that's exactly the problem for me - Anya doesn't need protection. She might not be a demon any more but she most certainly will not put up with Xander trying to emulate his father. If anything him doing that would have been dangerous for Xander, not Anya. Not to mention how suicidal it would be to not go through the wedding with vengeance demons among the guests...
Agreed. There are many reasons not to marry Anya but those shown didn't make any sense, IMO and seemed to be designed to make us pity Anya. I mean, if the meeting with a victim of Anya had finally driven home for Xander the fact that Anya is a serial murderer, I doubt many viewers would say it's a stupid reason.
Chosen Enemy
Losing my soul
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I don't see it that way. Anya seems to me the kind of girl who would want her love to protect her. What do you think Anya would do if Xander starts emulating his father? I don't get why you're saying that it would be dangerous for Xander.
Because she has killed thousands of men who behaved like Harris Senior. What does she do in Entropy? She tries to murder Xander through wishes. The quality of mercy is not Anya, that's what I mean. Even if she does not try to kill Xander she will leave him if he tries to abuse her in any way, shape or form. So unless he is thinking there is a very real chance of snapping so much that he might kill her before she has a chance to do that, I think "protecting her" is a case of Xander not understanding Anya at all. Had he dated say Tara, then he might have had a point.
Chosen Enemy
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WakingNightmare
The Dandy Lions
Xander made a mistake. A stupid, stupid but painfully understandable mistake. You are who your parents are. I hate that saying (understatement!) and no doubt Xander does too. Xander spent his whole wedding day surrounded by people whose marriage had destroyed them. It wasn’t for their own good and I believe, that Xander and Anya could have had a chance at working it out because they were in love, but whose too say that Jessica and Tony weren’t too, back in the day?
Xander is at fault here but I understand and sympathize with him. He was having his doubts before this, and, if anything, he should have spoken to Anya before hand, to save her the humiliation.
Xander is at fault here but I understand and sympathize with him. He was having his doubts before this, and, if anything, he should have spoken to Anya before hand, to save her the humiliation.
A Flawed Fashion
Potential
Xander wasn't ready for marriage - that was obvious, but he wanted to be with Anya and he shouldn't have proposed to her when he was still figuring his life out. He says it himself in season 6 that he is just getting out of his parent's basement and just now having a steady pay check.
Xander proposed to her for the reason Anya said - because the world was ending and he was afraid he was going to lose her. I think this is where their age difference really mattered. She feels like she is at the end of her life, so when he proposed to her she was ready to actually get married. He on the other hand feels he's at the beginning of his life and was proposing more out of love and a desire to be with her than a desire to deal with the reality of marriage. She's lived long enough to know where she stands in this world. He hasn't a clue where he stands.
I don't doubt that he really wanted to spend the rest of his life with her, but he just was too insecure about his own place in the world to actually get married at that time. If they had two more years together and had sat down to discuss all their issues after "I'll Never Tell," then I really think they would have been fine. They loved each other, they wanted to be together, but they weren't ready for marriage and pushing it too quickly destroyed them because they never had the time to deal with their fears and issues.
Xander proposed to her for the reason Anya said - because the world was ending and he was afraid he was going to lose her. I think this is where their age difference really mattered. She feels like she is at the end of her life, so when he proposed to her she was ready to actually get married. He on the other hand feels he's at the beginning of his life and was proposing more out of love and a desire to be with her than a desire to deal with the reality of marriage. She's lived long enough to know where she stands in this world. He hasn't a clue where he stands.
I don't doubt that he really wanted to spend the rest of his life with her, but he just was too insecure about his own place in the world to actually get married at that time. If they had two more years together and had sat down to discuss all their issues after "I'll Never Tell," then I really think they would have been fine. They loved each other, they wanted to be together, but they weren't ready for marriage and pushing it too quickly destroyed them because they never had the time to deal with their fears and issues.
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zobothehobo
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Abbeycat
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BuffyElevated
This is an EXCELLENT post. Very well said!
Kana
Soulless human
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I think most people have already covered my opinion on this firstly I'd like to say Xander wasn't selfish in to leave Anya at the alter, just a little ill advised, that's all.
Xander had a lot of issues of self esteem and I think it says a lot when someone can see themselves as capable of domestic violence. This is a very serious issue and while Xander never thought about that specifically, he should have addressed his insecurities a lot sooner. If not before he proposed, at the very least before the wedding. That's what I'd call damage limitation. Intead he proposes, he announces to the gang he's getting married and not talking to Anya about his fears.
It's certainly not as OOC as people think. People can progress but they can also fail and regress. They say in times of fear and sadness, we can become children again, we can regress. His fears are understandable as he hasn't got a good model for marriage in his life (either in his immediate family or his made family, the Scoobies, apart from maybe the Rosenbergs but based upon Mrs Rosenberg, I wouldn't count on it.) so anyone who thinks he hasn't got the cards stacked against him, is dead wrong. He did well enough to get as far as he did in life, not simply in terms of career or relationships but generally as a man.
What I wished as that he could have either addressed his issues more deeply or found a way to 'escape the basement' sooner.
The reason I don't think Xander's decision was inexorable is because in general his fate wasn't. He could have trusted the love for Anya, ironically the same love that caused him to jilt her but more importantly, he should have trusted himself to become the person he wants to be. He's already made strides for this already and that's what makes his decision more jarring. Something doesn't fit. If Xander had generally been skittish, it would make more sense, but he's seriously led Anya down the garden path and that's what made a bad situation worse. He should have either addressed his issues sooner or faced his fears, trusted himself and Anya and gone through with it.
I actually think Anya was right in the first place, he got caught in the moment and proposed. He did love and he did want to be with her but the reason people call him immature is because he clearly didn't think things through. When Anya is talking about their future, he freaks out. What? These are things you should consider before you propose.
All this said, I don't think one mistake (and yes I know Xander's made others but as we can always say, so have all the others) necessarily defines you. This is why I say Xander isn't immature, but decision wasn't particularly mature. Well I'd be more accurate to say that how he handled the situation wasn't mature. How and when he confronted his fears may have at least made a bad situation, less bad.
Xander had a lot of issues of self esteem and I think it says a lot when someone can see themselves as capable of domestic violence. This is a very serious issue and while Xander never thought about that specifically, he should have addressed his insecurities a lot sooner. If not before he proposed, at the very least before the wedding. That's what I'd call damage limitation. Intead he proposes, he announces to the gang he's getting married and not talking to Anya about his fears.
It's certainly not as OOC as people think. People can progress but they can also fail and regress. They say in times of fear and sadness, we can become children again, we can regress. His fears are understandable as he hasn't got a good model for marriage in his life (either in his immediate family or his made family, the Scoobies, apart from maybe the Rosenbergs but based upon Mrs Rosenberg, I wouldn't count on it.) so anyone who thinks he hasn't got the cards stacked against him, is dead wrong. He did well enough to get as far as he did in life, not simply in terms of career or relationships but generally as a man.
What I wished as that he could have either addressed his issues more deeply or found a way to 'escape the basement' sooner.
The reason I don't think Xander's decision was inexorable is because in general his fate wasn't. He could have trusted the love for Anya, ironically the same love that caused him to jilt her but more importantly, he should have trusted himself to become the person he wants to be. He's already made strides for this already and that's what makes his decision more jarring. Something doesn't fit. If Xander had generally been skittish, it would make more sense, but he's seriously led Anya down the garden path and that's what made a bad situation worse. He should have either addressed his issues sooner or faced his fears, trusted himself and Anya and gone through with it.
I actually think Anya was right in the first place, he got caught in the moment and proposed. He did love and he did want to be with her but the reason people call him immature is because he clearly didn't think things through. When Anya is talking about their future, he freaks out. What? These are things you should consider before you propose.
All this said, I don't think one mistake (and yes I know Xander's made others but as we can always say, so have all the others) necessarily defines you. This is why I say Xander isn't immature, but decision wasn't particularly mature. Well I'd be more accurate to say that how he handled the situation wasn't mature. How and when he confronted his fears may have at least made a bad situation, less bad.
LadyLavinia
Scooby
I completely agree. I was also annoyed at the way Xander demanded that Anya hurry up and get over their breakup by early Season 7. I found this hypocritical, considering his actions in "Entropy".
brinkster130
Yes, I found it rather annoying how Xander expected Anya to get over it at the snap of a finger.
When did he demand that? I don't remember ever seeing Xander tell Anya that she should get over it.
brinkster130
It was his attitude towards her that said it.
zobothehobo
Scooby
I think maybe in Beneath You when he says "and sooner or later, that excuse just stops working." To me that felt a little bit like a "oh get over it Anya... so I left you at the alter, big deal!"
brinkster130
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The Unspoken
Champion of the underdogs
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Really? To me that felt more like 'getting left at the altar is not an excuse for you to purposely endanger human lives'.
Or to kill a dozen frat boys in cold blood, for that matter.
Later on in the episode he actually praises her for reversing the spell.
zobothehobo
Scooby
That's why I said "a little bit." It felt like this mostly... but that's my best bet for what LadyLavinia was talking about.
That's not what it meant. What it meant that Anya blames Xander for having no friends and being alone, and that's just an excuse she's using because the reason for her misery is her choosing to be a demon again and doing a bad job at it. She's not evil enough to be a demon and she's not pure enough to be a Scooby. It's her fault. Xander didn't ask her to be demon again.
If Xander wanted her to get over it, he'd say it directly to her face. Since when does Xander twist his words to mean something else? He's always said what he wanted plain simple.
zobothehobo
Scooby
Again, that's why I said "a little bit." I know it doesn't mainly mean that he was telling her to get over it... but that's my best guess for what LadyLavinia was talking about. Maybe I shouldn't have responded... it was just a line that popped into my mind that she might have been talking about.
I'm sorry. I must have sounded rude. You were just explaining what they meant. I've been trying to avoid the Xander-hate that's been spreading like a plague in this forum and I snapped. Sorry again.