Xander's "jealousy"

[fly on the wall]

I never really thought of it that way. In the earlier seasons, Xander's protective nature and disagreements with Buffy and Willow usually came across as him being jealous or just plain stubborn, and in the later seasons, when the Scoobies were closer, it was more familial. Besides, Xander's attraction to physically dominant women (Slayers, demons, etc.) almost makes it seem like he wants a girl to be in charge.

True, but Xander always seems to be stuck in a world of contradictions. He's attracted to powerful women, yet he's intimidated by them at the same time. In the later seasons, I think he partially accepts that the females in his life are stronger and more capable than he is..but in the beginning, he hasn't. Remember all his comments in Season One about being "less of a man"? And despite moments like his speech in "Potential", I'm not completely convinced that he ever FULLY comes to terms with his issues there. In seasons one, two, and even three, he's jealous, and I might even call him misogynistic, toward both Buffy and Willow. He's intimidated by Buffy's relationship with Angel, as well as Willow's with Oz, even though he is in his own relationship with Cordelia. He is overprotective to the point that it makes me feel as though he's compensating for something. By seasons five, six, and seven, it's clear that he cares about Willow and Buffy as sisters, but does that mean he stops compensating?

As I said, his petty "I-want-to-be-the-kind-of-man-Buffy-would-love" jealousies are very apparent up to, and maybe even through, season three. Buffy does seem to have this effect on the men in her life--Riley struggled with the same issues. I do think the Xander/Buffy relationship becomes strictly platonic on both sides in later seasons, but does that mean that subconsciously Xander doesn't still have a desire to "prove" himself, to be a "manly man" that Buffy would take note of? Not because he's in love with Buffy, but because that would make HIM feel validated and, not to overuse the theme word, powerful? I don't know the answers there.

 

[sosa lola]

True, but Xander always seems to be stuck in a world of contradictions. He's attracted to powerful women, yet he's intimidated by them at the same time. In the later seasons, I think he partially accepts that the females in his life are stronger and more capable than he is..but in the beginning, he hasn't. Remember all his comments in Season One about being "less of a man"? And despite moments like his speech in "Potential", I'm not completely convinced that he ever FULLY comes to terms with his issues there. In seasons one, two, and even three, he's jealous, and I might even call him misogynistic, toward both Buffy and Willow. He's intimidated by Buffy's relationship with Angel, as well as Willow's with Oz, even though he is in his own relationship with Cordelia. He is overprotective to the point that it makes me feel as though he's compensating for something. By seasons five, six, and seven, it's clear that he cares about Willow and Buffy as sisters, but does that mean he stops compensating?

As I said, his petty "I-want-to-be-the-kind-of-man-Buffy-would-love" jealousies are very apparent up to, and maybe even through, season three. Buffy does seem to have this effect on the men in her life--Riley struggled with the same issues. I do think the Xander/Buffy relationship becomes strictly platonic on both sides in later seasons, but does that mean that subconsciously Xander doesn't still have a desire to "prove" himself, to be a "manly man" that Buffy would take note of? Not because he's in love with Buffy, but because that would make HIM feel validated and, not to overuse the theme word, powerful? I don't know the answers there.

I think we see Xander very differently. I never got the misogynistic vibe from him, his S1 comment wasn't about Buffy being stronger than him, it was about him being weak. He was a verbally abused child and endured lots of bullying by jocks, that made him insecure about his value and manhood. It doesn't mean that he hates strong women or wants to dominate them. Actually Buffy's strength is what attracts him the most, he loves his women strong and capable. See how he lost interest in Kendra the second she started to stutter and fledge. Women who are sure of themselves and can hold their own are the ones he likes. Buffy, Cordelia, Faith and Anya are all strong women with a mind of their own and don't take shit from others.

If he craved power, wouldn't he have elected himself to be the leader after Buffy's death instead of Willow? I don't think he ever hated the women in his life for being stronger than him. Yes, he wants to be useful and strong... but it's not about being more powerful than his female friends, it's about being as useful and as strong as them. It's more about equality.

In the early seasons, his protectiveness of Buffy and Willow was pure jealousy, because he's confused about his feelings toward them. I think he got over wanting to be Buffy's boyfriend after S2, and got over wanting to be Willow's boyfriend after Lover's Walk. His protectiveness later was merely a big brother type of protectiveness, which I don't find misogynistic at all. Willow is protective of Xander from Anya, does that make her a man hater? No, it shows that she cares about Xander and sees Anya unfit of his love. That's how Xander feels about Buffy with Spike.

Xander can be an insensitive jerk, petty, selfish, hypocrite, hot-tempered and self-doubting. But a women hater? Sorry, not convinced.

 

[PurplePoof]

I never really thought of it that way. In the earlier seasons, Xander's protective nature and disagreements with Buffy and Willow usually came across as him being jealous or just plain stubborn, and in the later seasons, when the Scoobies were closer, it was more familial. Besides, Xander's attraction to physically dominant women (Slayers, demons, etc.) almost makes it seem like he wants a girl to be in charge.

I don't disagree necessarily, but I still found him to be patronizing...guess it's just me.

 

[palabravampiress]

I pretty much think we dealt with the subconsciously misogynistic issue with Riley and with the overtly misogynistic issue with Caleb. "Misogynist" is not a word that I would apply toward a man who fights side-by-side beside women, follows them into battle, sees them as his leaders and his heroes, and loves them unconditionally (even when they try to destroy the world). Being protective is not the same as being misogynistic.

For example, my dad is protective of me without being a misogynist. He had two daughters and raised us to be intelligent, independent, and capable of supporting ourselves. He wanted love for us, yes, but he never ever taught us to expect to rely on a man. My dad expects great things from his children. He instilled in us one heck of a work ethic. Failure was never an option. Turning in an average performance was not allowed. In anything that my sister and I tried, we were expected to excel. Otherwise, we weren't giving it our all. He taught us that we had a duty to achieve our potential and that we had more potential in our little pinkies than most people had all over. That makes my dad sound like a jerk; he's not. In fact, he's the best dad in the world. He has all of the faith in the world in us and he expects us to achieve our dreams, obstacles be damned. My dad didn't teach me about a woman's place; instead, he taught me that my place is a combination of where I want it to be and how hard I work to get there. My dad never tried to pigeonhole or cap our expectations on the basis of gender. Instead, he pushed us hard and taught us well so that the only people who could hold us back are ourselves.

All of that said, my dad is very protective of me. He is protective of me because when he looks at me, he still sees the 1.6 pound premature baby who fit into the palm of his hand. That early physical weakness and lack of motor coordination remained with me, so when it came time to clean the storm drains or chop down tree branches or something, my dad called on my much stronger, much larger "little" sister to help him do it. My dad is the only man in a family of women, so differences in the way he treats family members can't be based on gender. He is more physically protective of my mother and of me than he is of my sister because he got the call to rush to the hospital because we were both dying. He almost lost us. By comparison, my sister seems less fragile. So while my dad may push me hard in all other areas, he cuts me slack in the physical ones. That's not a misogynistic assumption of weakness; it's an assumption of weakness based on experience. A misogynist would apply a similar view toward all women, whereas someone who is not misogynistic applies opinions of relative weakness and strength based upon his or her observation of that person's actual capabilities.

Like Xander, my dad is also pretty vocal about anyone whom he sees as a threat to his babies or any poor decisions that we make. When school personnel didn't want to accommodate my health problems, my dad scheduled a meeting with the principal and went to bat for me. When I decided to remain in the states rather than to study abroad, my dad opposed my decision. Of course, it was my decision to make, but he let me know how he felt about it. When I brought home a stoner guy without much of a future, my dad was pretty vocal about his opposition to the boy. A year later, when that boy showed up at the door unexpectedly, my dad closed the door in his face. He didn't tell me about that until I was grown and married and it was just a funny story, but he did it. The bottom line here is that my dad loves me. He feels the urge to protect me -- sometimes from my own decisions. But he doesn't feel that urge because I'm a woman; he feels that urge because I'm his daughter. Those are two very different kinds of protectiveness. One kind is based upon an unfounded assumption of inborn weakness so that a misogynist thinks it is his duty to protect women because they cannot protect themselves. The other kind is based on the love that one feels toward another human being so that a father protects his daughters because they are the most important people in his lives. I see Xander's protectiveness of the Scooby women in the same light as that in which I see my dad's protectiveness of me. Neither Xander nor my father assume gender based weakness in those they love. Instead, they protect those they love simply because they love them.

I could no more argue that Xander is a misogynist than I could claim my father as one. Both men feel protective of the people that they love, but they do so without the ingrained assumption of weakness. Both men base their feelings of protectiveness and criticism on their loved ones' actions and choices, not on their loved ones' gender. Both men want their loved ones to achieve their full potential and feel disappointed when they fall short. Both men also sometimes make mistakes and misjudge or underestimate their loved ones because they want what's best for them, not because they want power over them. Based on my experience, then, it would seem to me that Xander's protectiveness toward the females in his life is born of love, not misogyny.

 

[fly on the wall]

I think we see Xander very differently. I never got the misogynistic vibe from him, his S1 comment wasn't about Buffy being stronger than him, it was about him being weak. He was a verbally abused child and endured lots of bullying by jocks, that made him insecure about his value and manhood. It doesn't mean that he hates strong women or wants to dominate them. Actually Buffy's strength is what attracts him the most, he loves his women strong and capable. See how he lost interest in Kendra the second she started to stutter and fledge. Women who are sure of themselves and can hold their own are the ones he likes. Buffy, Cordelia, Faith and Anya are all strong women with a mind of their own and don't take shit from others.

If he craved power, wouldn't he have elected himself to be the leader after Buffy's death instead of Willow? I don't think he ever hated the women in his life for being stronger than him. Yes, he wants to be useful and strong... but it's not about being more powerful than his female friends, it's about being as useful and as strong as them. It's more about equality.

In the early seasons, his protectiveness of Buffy and Willow was pure jealousy, because he's confused about his feelings toward them. I think he got over wanting to be Buffy's boyfriend after S2, and got over wanting to be Willow's boyfriend after Lover's Walk. His protectiveness later was merely a big brother type of protectiveness, which I don't find misogynistic at all. Willow is protective of Xander from Anya, does that make her a man hater? No, it shows that she cares about Xander and sees Anya unfit of his love. That's how Xander feels about Buffy with Spike.

Xander can be an insensitive jerk, petty, selfish, hypocrite, hot-tempered and self-doubting. But a women hater? Sorry, not convinced.

I didn't claim he was a women-hater. And "misogynist" is too strong of a word, I think.
I agree that he wanted to be as strong and as useful as his female friends...and I also agree that he was dealing with a lot of personal insecurities...but don't you think that a young man, wrought with insecurity about his manhood, and surrounded by women who were stronger (physically, emotionally, magically, socially) than him made him feel LESS strong, LESS useful? Would Xander have used the "less of a man" line in S1 had Buffy been male? Maybe. But we'll never know for sure. To me, the fact that he brought gender into it at ALL makes me feel like it was more than just him feeling weak. It was about him feeling weak next to this little blond girl, who was stronger, faster, and more knowledgeable about fighting demons than he was.

I think by Season Seven, he had matured to a point that he didn't let all this bother him as much...he became okay with being the "seer" of the group...but in earlier seasons, of course it had its effects. I'm not saying he hated women, or that he resented his friends for these traits, or even that he wasn't attracted to powerful women (because, hello, it couldn't be more obvious that he was) but couldn't he also have felt intimidated, humiliated, and degraded (unintentionally by Buffy and co.) by these traits as well? Couldn't this have led to certain jealousies and patronizing behavior?

 

[palabravampiress]

^ That's very well argued. I certainly think that young Xander may have struggled subconsciously with those issues, but he embraced strong women so quickly that I dont' see those issues as a huge part of his character in the same way that I see them as a huge part of, say, Riley's character. For Xander, I think that those antiquated ideas about gender roles probably came from his family situation. Based on what little we know of his parents, it seems pretty likely that he spent his childhood watching his dad mistreat and disrespect his mom (if not outright abuse her).

I think it is significant, though, that Xander pretty quickly replaced that family with his chosen family of Scoobies and that he went on to be attracted to, devoted to, and friendly, helpful, and loving toward strong women. Xander may have been raised with certain negative gender-based ideas and insecurities, but the fact that he devoted himself so quickly and so completely to a group that defied those traditional teachings sort of tells me where *he* stands. There is a difference between the values with which one is raised and the values that one chooses. Xander chose to reject traditional gender roles pretty much as soon as non-traditional folks started coming into his life. Teenagers like young Xander are still establishing their identities as individuals. One of the pieces of Xander's identity that we get to see develop and establish itself almost right off the bat is his willingness to look past a person's superficial characteristics. He is the first one to see the beauty and the potential for good in people like Cordelia, Anya, and Faith. He hangs out with witches and nerdy librarians. He accepts Oz, Riley, and Tara. He treats Dawn as if she were his own sister. Really, the only people he seems to have beef with are vampires, and that goes straight back to Jesse in episode 1. Even that, he dealt with by season 7, when he was (shockingly) one of the most accepting of Spike's changed nature. The fact that Xander abandoned those old stereotypes so completely and became the emotional "glue" of his new, very feminist family makes it hard for me to see those early gender-based insecurities as a significant or enduring part of his character.

Gosh, I love Xander. His capacity for love and loyalty is truly inspiring, as is his journey from an insecure boy to a brave, sincere, and responsible man. It's okay for Xander to have had some jealousy and gender role issues when he was a teenager. As I recall, that stuff seems really complicated during that stage of life. The important thing is that he loves and stands by the Scoobies no matter what -- to the end of the world and back several times over, insecurities and social conventions be, umm, darned. Don't get me wrong; I don't think Xander's perfect. I just think that his heart is in the right place, and that counts for a lot for me.

 

[sosa lola]

Would Xander have used the "less of a man" line in S1 had Buffy been male? Maybe.

Maybe. In the end, he didn't seem to dislike Buffy being stronger, he sounded geekily in awe when he told Jesse that Buffy was a superhero. He always thought of Buffy whenever he was in danger, and hid behind her when facing danger.

We can see gender roles reversed in Teacher's Pet. The little blonde girl being Superman and the tall dark-haired boy being the damsel in distress about getting raped. (While the episode isn't that impressive, I loved this little reversal.)

To me, the fact that he brought gender into it at ALL makes me feel like it was more than just him feeling weak. It was about him feeling weak next to this little blond girl, who was stronger, faster, and more knowledgeable about fighting demons than he was.

It didn't sound like that to me, I think he was defensive because Buffy won't allow him to tag along to save his friend, which made him feel less than a man. If he appeared strong and capable, she might have agreed to take him. This is probably what he was thinking about, because other than this line, I don't remember Xander raising gender issues. He was always admiring Buffy's strength and thinking of her as his hero and role model.

but couldn't he also have felt intimidated, humiliated, and degraded (unintentionally by Buffy and co.) by these traits as well? Couldn't this have led to certain jealousies and patronizing behavior?

He was obviously frustrated because he was the most useless, but I don't think it had anything to do with the women being powerful. Because he usually includes Oz and Giles when talking about his friends being more special and stronger than him.