Xander's relationship with Angel

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EffieT1

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Okay so I was rewatching season 2 and while watching Becoming this question hit me hard and I really dont know the answer so I pose it to you fellow Buffy lovers. Does Xander's hatred of Angel stem from the fact that Angel is a vampire, one who goes on to (as Angelus) do horrible things to the Scoobies and kill Ms Calender or is his hatred a product of his subconscious jealousy at the fact that Angel (someone who he may view as unworthy) has Bufffy's love in a way that Xander never will (even though at the time he was with Cordelia who we could argue he liked very much).

Also just to slip in another question here, the argument in Becoming when Xander's hatred becomes very clear is when they argue whether to focus on ensouling or killing angel so I was just also wandering what you guys felt the right course of action wold be (putting yourself in the shoes of the Scoobies with no knowledge of the future) should they have been more concerned with getting the old Angel back or killing him thus stopping and punishing him simultaneously.
Thanks😎
 
I guess it's a mixture of both. He always had the hots for Buffy and he is only a normal human being compared to Angel. In other words he is nothing special and hence Buffy is unreachable for him. Then Xander also sees every vampire as a threat, and Angelus did some very nasty stuff including killing people he knew and cared about. So I guess he hated Angelus, and just really disliked Angel because of the whole love thing. I probably would have had the same reaction as Xander did. I would have said "let's kill that bastard, Angel."
 
[MENTION=12370]EffieT1[/MENTION]
Does Xander's hatred of Angel stem from the fact that Angel is a vampire, one who goes on to (as Angelus) do horrible things to the Scoobies and kill Ms Calender
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This. Xander hates vampires because of what happened to Jesse, I mean, he lost his best friend. He was jealous in season 1 but I don't that's the case in season 2.

Bufffy's love in a way that Xander never will
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I don't think Xander cares about Buffy's love. Not like that, not enough to be jealous. Yes, Buffy is a pretty girl not to mention his personal hero but he's not obsessed with her, watch "Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered" if you need a proof. Around season 2 Xander puts Buffy into the same mental box where Willow already is, that box with a big sister/friend inscription on the lid, that one every guy has.

should they have been more concerned with getting the old Angel back or killing him thus stopping and punishing him simultaneously.
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Angelus is a serial killer. What's the fastest way of stopping his carnage, thus preventing any more deaths? Yeah, I guess I could capture and enslave him and then try to figure out the soul problem but you know what, I'd just slay him. It's the most reliable and safe solution as Angel's already proven that he's simply not responsible enough to keep his soul. What if there are other loopholes? Also, Liam's soul deserves a rest.
 
EVIL UU said:
[MENTION=12370]EffieT1[/MENTION]


This. Xander hates vampires because of what happened to Jesse, I mean, he lost his best friend. He was jealous in season 1 but I don't that's the case in season 2.



I don't think Xander cares about Buffy's love. Not like that, not enough to be jealous. Yes, Buffy is a pretty girl not to mention his personal hero but he's not obsessed with her, watch "Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered" if you need a proof. Around season 2 Xander puts Buffy into the same mental box where Willow already is, that box with a big sister/friend inscription on the lid, that one every guy has.
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Its nice to have someone refer to Jesse, its like the dude died more or less in the first episode he's supposed to be Xander's bff but he's never mentioned again, its an interesting take to say that his death really affected Xander.
Im gonna have to disagree with your second point, yes Xander doesnt take advantage of Buffy in 'Bewitched...' but if you remember, to paraphrase, he says to Buffy ''if only you knew how much this would mean to me but you dont'' implying that even at a time when he's hurting for Cordelia if Buffy truly wanted him he'd be onboard.
 
I don't think Xander's jealousy of Angel had anything to do with wanting to kill Angelus. Xander had the opportunity to have Angel killed when Kendra raised that point before Angel lost his soul, and Xander defended Angel as a friend. So if jealousy was enough for Xander to want him killed, he'd have backed up Kendra when she said Angel should be killed.
 
[MENTION=12370]EffieT1[/MENTION]
if Buffy truly wanted him he'd be onboard.
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But only if she truly wanted him. It's kinda complicated with guys and really simple at the same time. Yeah, he'd love to be with her but that's all there is to it, she stays in the friend/sister box unless she jumps out of it on her own, kinda like Willow for a moment in season 3. Xander may be a horny hormonal teenager but he's already much more mature than both Angel and Spike in that regard. He can get over Buffy, he can just put her into a box and love her like a friend, being in love with another woman at the same time. OK, so he sometimes fantasizes about Buffy, but he also fantasizes about Willow and Tara and Willow and Tara and Jenny and Joyce and Dawn too, 'cause she's cute, but those are just fantasies, there are no feelings behind them. Sexuality is one thing, love is another. It's like, your boyfriend watches pornography, it doesn't mean he loves you any less. It's a fantasy, a sexual cookie. Buffy can be both of those things to Xander, a friend he loves dearly and a cookie 'cause she's kinda tasty, you know. It doesn't mean he's jealous.

he's supposed to be Xander's bff but he's never mentioned again, its an interesting take to say that his death really affected Xander.
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Xander grieves in silence, on his own, keeps his sorrow to himself.
 
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EffieT1
cool, never really viewed his relationship with buffy like that but I can dig it
Normally, Xander sees things in black and white - vampires = bad, humans = good. It doesn't matter if it was Angel, or some other vampire, he's still a vampire and he tried to end the world. That's enough for Xander to want him dusted and enough to make trusting Angel in the future hard for him to do.

When it comes to humans, Xander loses his black and white perspective and he flounders. It's why Anya confuses him so much in the beginning, why he thinks that he can help Faith and why he almost sacrifices himself to save Willow.

In the beginning (S1) I think Xander's jealousy plays a part in his dislike of Angel, but he's able to put that aside in order to work with Angel because he recognizes that Angel is on his side. It's a reluctant recognition, but it's there nonetheless. Once he sees what Angelus is capable of, and knowing how easy it is for Angelus to come out to play, that trust - however little it is - disappears completely and I don't think it'll ever come back. Especially after Angel's actions in S8.
 
Gum Gnome33
Gum Gnome33
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EVIL UU said:
I don't think Xander cares about Buffy's love. Not like that, not enough to be jealous. Yes, Buffy is a pretty girl not to mention his personal hero but he's not obsessed with her, watch "Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered" if you need a proof. Around season 2 Xander puts Buffy into the same mental box where Willow already is, that box with a big sister/friend inscription on the lid, that one every guy has.
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It's a mixture of his hatred towards vampires generally and his jealousy of Angel. During S2 Xander still does have feelings towards Buffy. "B,B&B" demonstrates that he still wants Buffy romantically rather than denies it. The reason he turns down Buffy is because she's under a spell and it wouldn't be real. Plus, arguably it could be seen as a form of rape.

If Buffy had made a move on Xander in a less slutty, more Buffy-like way and Xander was certain there was no magic involved, of course he would have reciprocated. Buffy is still very much attractive to him in S2 despite Buffy rejecting his date offer. I think Xander gets over Buffy during S3 and by S4 he's completely over her. He's completely fine with Riley dating her, there's no jealousy there at all. He objects to Spuffy in S5&6 purely because he's a vampire.

Angelus is a serial killer. What's the fastest way of stopping his carnage, thus preventing any more deaths? Yeah, I guess I could capture and enslave him and then try to figure out the soul problem but you know what, I'd just slay him. It's the most reliable and safe solution as Angel's already proven that he's simply not responsible enough to keep his soul. What if there are other loopholes? Also, Liam's soul deserves a rest.
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This makes sense too. Never thought about Liam's soul, certainly does need a bit of a rest
 
I think Xander's hatred for Angel/us stems from his own insecurity about himself - Angel is the kind of guy girls like Buffy fall for, who get away with more, while Xander is looked down on by others.
 
Someone mentioned Jesse before and I really think that what happened with Jesse has a lot to do with Xander's rage/hatred of Angelus.

Before Angel turned, Xander was simply jealous but he did seem to recognise that with a soul Angel was different to most vampires. He would make snide comments but overall he seemed to be alright with Buffy and Angel together and kept his jealously and distrust under control.

However, once Angel turns into Angelus, Xander can hate him freely, because now Angelus is no different to Jesse. He is no longer the man that Buffy loves or the ally that Xander had previously stood with. He has become what Giles told Xander Jesse was "You're not looking at your friend. You're looking at the thing that killed him."

So, I think this is where a lot of Xander's frustration comes from. He was told, under no uncertain terms, that he would have to be prepared to kill his friend, which he did. This must have had a huge effect on him and understandably made him see most vampires in shades of black and white. So when Angelus suddenly shifts into the "black" territory, Xander is angry that Buffy won't kill him, even though he, Xander, had to face and make the same choice with someone close to him.
 
Yosso said:
It's a mixture of his hatred towards vampires generally and his jealousy of Angel. During S2 Xander still does have feelings towards Buffy. "B,B&B" demonstrates that he still wants Buffy romantically rather than denies it. The reason he turns down Buffy is because she's under a spell and it wouldn't be real. Plus, arguably it could be seen as a form of rape.
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I also think Xander feels hatred towards vampires. From the beginning of the series, he thinks they're totally evil devoid of any real feelings and therefore every vampire should be killed. and of course, he doesn't like Angel, first because he's jealous of him, as he's attracted to or in love with Buffy himself, and then because he's a vampire. He makes his feelings for Angel pretty obvious from the beginning, in Angel and again in Prophecy Girl in S01! ...For him, it's clear that Angel should be killed! he doesn't believe in goodness in vampires.
That's probably also why he and Riley get on so well! they both can only think in black and white, there's no grey area for them, although Riley tends to change his mind concerning Oz.
 
I don't really think Xander is a character that sees things in black and white. After all, he's friends with a werewolf and two witches and falls in love with an ex-demon and he was attracted to Vampire Buffy and hoped he was a badass vampire in VampWillow's world. His reasons for disliking Angel are because of Buffy at first - but that doesn't mean he wished him death, as I said he defended him when Kendra suggested they should kill him - and then because of Angelus.
 
Xander's hate clearly started with the fact that Angel had Buffy and he didn't. From the moment he learned that Angel was a vampire, I think his hatred just switched to "he's a vampire, kill him" mode. I think he was always a little jealous of the Bangel relationship, but he was probably more angry at the fact that Buffy chose an undead over him... I'm still wondering how (let's forget S8 for a sec) he would have reacted to Angel's return to Sunnydale. Like if in S7, Angel had came back to stay.

As for killing Angel well... It would have depended how I would've warmed up to him... I'd love to say I would've fought with Buffy to "cure" him, but I don't know how I would've felt toward him in reality. So I can't really answer, except that I know if I had really liked him (like I do), I would have fought to try to cure him before anything else and kill him only in last resort. Just like Buffy did...
 
Vamp Jenny said:
I'm still wondering how (let's forget S8 for a sec) he would have reacted to Angel's return to Sunnydale. Like if in S7, Angel had came back to stay.
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Angel visited in S4 and Xander didn't seem to care much. He's over Buffy and seemed to be sort of okay with Angel being around, so I really don't think he'd care much about Angel's return in S7.
 
sosa lola said:
Angel visited in S4 and Xander didn't seem to care much. He's over Buffy and seemed to be sort of okay with Angel being around, so I really don't think he'd care much about Angel's return in S7.
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Yeah I know, but he didn't stay. I meant, if he had came back for a while, I wonder if Xander's hate would have surfaced again...
 
It just occurred to me that Buffy brings the issue of Xander's jealousy in "Revelations"...

BUFFY: You would just love an excuse to hurt him, wouldn't you?
XANDER: I don't need an excuse. I think lots of dead people actually constitutes a reason.
BUFFY: Right. This is all nobility. This has nothing to do with jealousy.
CORDELIA: Hello? Miss Not-Over-Yourself-Yet?
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...in front of his super hot girlfriend who promptly steam rolls right over her shit. Anyway, this is Xander's reaction:



One picture, thousand words.
 
I never really understood why there was so much debate about this, to be honest. I'm sure Xander had good intentions somewhere as well, but it seemed to be pretty heavily implied that he was acting largely out of jealously. I mean, he admits a few episodes down the road in "Amends" that he hadn't been a very good friend to Buffy about Angel, which would seem to imply that Xander was aware his motivations weren't exactly pure and noble.
 
Vamp Jenny said:
Yeah I know, but he didn't stay. I meant, if he had came back for a while, I wonder if Xander's hate would have surfaced again...
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By S7? I doubt it. There's no reason to dislike Angel anymore. Even though I don't see them becoming the bestest of friends.
 
I always felt that Xander hated Angel because he liked Buffy and Angel was the one who Buffy wanted and not Xander. I think he then started to like him a bit more for all of the times he helped the scoobies out.
I think one of the quotes that stick out to me to describe their relationship is Xander in What's my line :"Hey! Angel's our friend... except I don't like him"
 
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