Question Your Reaction to Twilight's Identity

Joan the Vampire Slayer

Carpe Spuffy!
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
7,169
Age
41
Location
Tulsa
So, some of us, including myself, have known for quite some time who Twilight was, but I know many of you just found out with the recent issue.

Thoughts? Reactions? Did you see this coming, or was this totally "out of the blue" for you? Who did you think Twilight was? Were you right? Wrong?

Discuss away!
 
Well, I knew before. So the shock was lost. And thus my reaction was "it doesn't make sense."

There was a very interesting post-mortem article on Dollhouse, which stated that Dollhouse started as an interesting show but ended up being a mess of Whedon cliche's. Why I'm speaking about Dollhouse?

Because Buffy season 8 = Dollhouse! There are a lot of similarities between the two. And also the reveal.

Twilight's reveal=Boyd's reveal! They both don't make sense. And they both don't mesh together with what came before.

The second half of the comic when Angel was explaining himself... just like Hollow Men when Boyd explained himself. Any good that the shock might have done was lost in a complete "it doesn't make sense. it still doesn't. and it never will."

And at least in Getting Closer we had a week before fully getting how it doesn't make sense when listening to "if you don't think too hard then it could make sense" apologetic speech. With this comic we got both things immediately.

And I'm not alone. I've noticed that people who did remain un-spoiled also found that Angel's speech ruined the twist. I guess the twist wasn't just as cool as Whedon and Allie thought it was.

It didn't ruin my life or anything. I'm more of a Whedon fan than a Buffy fan, so I'm always going with Whedon. And I'm also Spuffy, so I couldn't care less about Bangel... but yeah. Failed twist. And not just because of the leak.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Agreed. Interesting connection between DH and Season 8. The twist definitely fell on its a*s, to say the least.
C
Chris2
Absolutely agreed about Dollhouse. I haven't actually read BtVS 8 so I could be mistaken, but the Twilight reveal sounds equally ridiculous to me.
I think that it's looking like a cheap shot to stir up a whole lot of controversy and increased interest in the ending of the series, even though, with the scheduling of comics as opposed to a weekly TV show, it's gonna lose some of its momentum by the end. As has been illustrated here on the Boards and a lot of other places, Angel's appearance, especially as the (supposed) Big Bad, has brought, or rather renewed, a lot of serious speculation on one of the series big questions, namely who Buffy ends up with as "the one" in the end. They've already had her with someone new and completely unexpected (Satsu), someone often speculated on (Xander), but never actually happened, and, surprise of all surprises, not one, not two, but ALL THREE of her previous lovers showing up (okay, Spike isn't there yet, but with all of the current talk, it's almost a sure bet that he will be, if only in some kind of flashback or another dream sequence, but tossing in yet another big shocker for Buffy, namely that Spike not only came back, but that he never bothered to try and contact her before now) Mark my words, THAT question, despite all of Joss' statements about how Buffy and Angel "belong" together, won't be definitely answered by the end of the season, or any other, simply because it's one of the things that make the show interesting for a lot of people.

Joss did the exact same thing at the end of Season 7 by bringing Angel back for no reason whatsoever but to remind everyone that he was still in the picture, just in case anyone had forgotten. What purpose did he actually serve? The amulet could have been found somewhere by Giles on one of his frequent trips, delivered by some benevolent demon, bestowed on the "Last Guardian Of The Hellmouth" by the Guardian (or even the Shadowmen), or not even used at all. Willow could still have worked the spell activating all of the Potentials, which would have been sufficient to beat back the ubervamps long enough to permanently close off the hellmouth. Spike could still have died closing it. or even survived. Angel did, indeed, as Spike said, just drop by for a quickie, but it was Joss' quickie, not Angel's.

Oh, here's a thought. What if Joss just rewrote the scene from Season 7 so that Spike plays Angel's part and Angel plays Caleb's part. Angel's about to finish Buffy off, there's a voice, "Hey," Angel turns around and gets slugged by Spike, who is there to deliver a mystic charm or weapon of some sort that is going to save the day, Then Buffy can split Angel from crotch to crown, kiss Spike, and send him off to organize the second front. Then she takes the charm/weapon back to base camp and gives it to Riley to carry in the final battle. When he is about to die, Buffy grabs Riley's hand and whispers, "I always loved you," to which Riley replies, "I know. I was just wondering whether or not you would ever realize it."

Angel returned to Sunnydale at least once in every season after he left for his own show, and one of the main reasons for doing so, I believe, was to simply remind the audience that there was still a connection there. That's not romance, it's showmanship and good business. At least this time, there seems to actually be a reason for his return.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
I wouldn't call Angel's periodical returns "good business" I'd call them fan-service. But yes, I agree.
S
Spike Angelus
Some of Angel's visits to Sunnydale made sense, but I agree about his showing up in "Chosen".
As someone who didn't know it that Twilight was Angel going into this issue, I had to say I was surprised. And then I went back and re-read the entire series and there are so many blatant hints to Twilights real identity it's ridiculous. In issue #11 alone with the fight between Buffy and Twilight he says, "I know that move, slayer" when she goes to crotch him with the scythe. Then on the very next page, foreshadowing to Buffy's future ability to fly when he says "I watched you and the witch, it seemed you didn't like flying." Onto a couple of pages over and the line that screams Angel, he says he actually came there to talk, "But there you were...going on about how hard it is for you and well...I just hate to see you cry."

And on the very next page, Twilight says something that rings true to his speech in #33. He says, "One slayer was all right, but all these girls...the world can't contain them and THEY will suffer for that."

Now, that is my strongest example I have of foreshadowing to the identity of Twilight. Obviously there is so much more to the story, and I'm game to find out what it is. I think that it also makes sense that he was trying to protect as many as he could. In any war, there are going to be casualties, it's just going to happen. You can't save everyone, and that's what makes this whole thing more plausible to me. Common sense dictates that.

As far as of Buffy and Angel's relationship goes, I think it all depends on your view of love, how you perceive it. How important you think love is in the great scheme of things. But I also don't think the kiss at the end of this issue is totally cut and dry. Basically, I'm taking a wait and see attitude and then I'll make up my mind.
 
MinwaraYana
MinwaraYana
Just noticed you're in VH. You should go back to our dorm sometimes. :D
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Yea, many of us suspected it was Angel all along...
I wasn't surprised at all since when you combined Joss' & Georges' hints about Twilight's identity, it had to be Angel, no other candidates.

But in terms of his actions... almost shocked.

Aside from the prophecies in play (and I'm sure there will be plenty), the only explanation I can think of is Angel realized that Spike & Giles were wrong.

All along, Buffy's guys have been telling her that a vampire's greatest weapons are their innate physical strengths. It took Angel 358 years, two trips to hell, a stint as the world's greatest serial killer, detective, and CEO of the most evil conglomerate around to figure out that they've been wrong.

The vampire's most dangerous trait is their secrecy. Vampires are woefully outnumbered, and most random vamps will have trouble with a normal human given proper training (Gunn could dispatch a handful at a time).

His four year mission in LA with Cordy was to stay in the dark to fight the vampires on their turf, and he won almost every battle.

But the war was still being lost. He saw that even after the second largest city in America spent months under Demon oppression, it was mostly brushed off as mass hysteria. People just wouldn't accept a large force of evil, denial was easier.

Finally, his stop-gap last plan was to expose the vamps in a light that wouldn't catalyze further denial, hence what we see.
 
I don't read the comics, but a friend of mine keeps me up to date on the latest happenings, and when I found out about this, I was surprised to say the least.

And despite the fact that Angel is my favorite hero in the Buffyverse, I did not respond with the apocalpytic horror that so many are espousing. I, too, am invested in these characters and do not want them to be wasted. But then I have to remind myself that Joss hasn't really made any significant faux pas with any of his characters! It all worked out in the end.

Spike attempted to rape Buffy in what was, to me, the freakiest scene in the series. And yet his character and fandom pulled through; we hated him for what he did for a while, but we realized that characters -- all characters, particularly the likes of Spike and Angel -- are going to have their moral and ethical pitfalls.

In this situation, if Buffy's actions destabilized some sort of cosmic balance, I absolutely see Angel as the type to reluctantly assume the role of arbiter and judge, to impose his own moral principles on the cosmos in an attempt to truly right some sort of inexorable wrong. If that cost lives, he wouldn't be giggling with joy, but as long as it was several magnitudes lower than the alternative body count, he'd do it.

And so would Giles.

And so would Wesley.

And so, if it wasn't her sister, would Buffy.
 
And despite the fact that Angel is my favorite hero in the Buffyverse, I did not respond with the apocalpytic horror that so many are espousing. I, too, am invested in these characters and do not want them to be wasted. But then I have to remind myself that Joss hasn't really made any significant faux pas with any of his characters! It all worked out in the end.

Cordelia Chase...

Connor...

Both required brain-reboots to be salvageable.
 
Cordelia Chase...

Connor...

Both required brain-reboots to be salvageable.

It all comes down to personal preference in the end.

But regarding this whole Twilight debacle, I honestly don't know what people are expecting here. Personally, anyone who thinks that Angel being Twilight is unfeasible is deluding themselves: Angel, when necessary, is a Machiavellian strategist and schemer, willing to cross an event horizon and damn himself to the pits of hell for "the greater good."

It sucks, but if Buffy's actions would cause some sort of epic world war as Angel suggests, what would you have him do? Sit and let everyone die?

"Well, people of the Earth, I'd love to save you! But a couple of fans think the better option would be let everyone die [rather than a statistical handful] so my moral integrity will remain intact."

Don't get me wrong, I think it would be an extraordinarily difficult moral decision and one that should not be taken lightly. But it all comes down to perspective. If you or a loved one were part of the sacrificial body count, you'd probably hate him. If you or a loved one were part of the survivors, you'd be most appreciative.

Joss has apparently been planning this for years; have faith.
 
Gideon, I agree with a lot of your points overall, but I have to nitpick a few things 😉

Cordelia Chase...

Connor...

Both required brain-reboots to be salvageable.
It all comes down to personal preference in the end.
Not really. Charisma Carpenter (Cordy) & Vincent Kartheiser (Connor) were both extremely unhappy with their characters' directions. Joss wasn't thrilled with S4 and neither was the WB.

But regarding this whole Twilight debacle, I honestly don't know what people are expecting here. Personally, anyone who thinks that Angel being Twilight is unfeasible is deluding themselves: Angel, when necessary, is a Machiavellian strategist and schemer
Really? I'm a big fan of Angel, but even he & Cordy discussed how the brilliant ideas were more Angelus' forte than Angel's.

His biggest plan was battling the Circle of the Black Thorn, and he considered that a complete failure for maiming millions of people through the crossfire. All-in-all, most of his "lieutenants" have died terrible deaths in his battle.

It sucks, but if Buffy's actions would cause some sort of epic world war as Angel suggests, what would you have him do? Sit and let everyone die?

"Well, people of the Earth, I'd love to save you! But a couple of fans think the better option would be let everyone die [rather than a statistical handful] so my moral integrity will remain intact."
While you're right here, Angel has not acted like this in the past.

Cordy was already dead for all intents-and-purposes, yet he struggled with, and never managed to kill her in order to save the world from Jasmine.

Angel knew he could not beat the Master since he lost to him in his early days as Angelus, so he opted not to fight him at all, and left Buffy and the rest of Earth to deal with him.
 
Gideon, I agree with a lot of your points overall, but I have to nitpick a few things 😉

Feel free! Nitpicking often leads to great discussion. 🙂


Buffyverse Fan said:
Not really. Charisma Carpenter (Cordy) & Vincent Kartheiser (Connor) were both extremely unhappy with their characters' directions. Joss wasn't thrilled with S4 and neither was the WB.

It is my understanding that S4 did not turn out like Joss planned due to Charisma's pregnancy and Glenn Quin's death. So he and the other writers adapted accordingly.

But that doesn't mean that S4 was a failure or a disaster; it means that it didn't go according to the original plan. It all comes down to preference.

Buffyverse Fan said:
Really? I'm a big fan of Angel, but even he & Cordy discussed how the brilliant ideas were more Angelus' forte than Angel's.

?
I'm confused as to how this is relevant. Two fallible characters came to the conclusion that Angelus is a greater manipulator and strategist, in certain areas, than Angel. I do not dispute this. But that does not mean that Angel is otherwise incapable of manipulation, deceit, or strategy on his own. The Buffyverse has already established that he's more than capable of pulling one over on everyone.

Buffyverse Fan said:
His biggest plan was battling the Circle of the Black Thorn, and he considered that a complete failure for maiming millions of people through the crossfire. All-in-all, most of his "lieutenants" have died terrible deaths in his battle.

A failure in that it resulted in a great deal of deaths and destruction, sure. But you (and Angel) are looking at that strategy through a moral angle. The practicle purpose of Angel's deception was to eliminate the Circle of the Black Thorn. And in that regard, it was a resounding success.

He fooled Wesley, Gunn, Lorne, the ever perceptive Spike, and the most powerful organization on the planet. Is he infallible or omniscient? Hardly. But he's got the brains and experience to manipulate those around him, even when he's not Angelus.

Buffyverse Fan said:
While you're right here, Angel has not acted like this in the past.

Cordy was already dead for all intents-and-purposes, yet he struggled with, and never managed to kill her in order to save the world from Jasmine.

Cordelia is the exception, not the rule. To Angel, she wasn't one of the faceless masses, but a warrior for whom he felt great affection. He was biased and reluctant to kill her. But you'll notice that when push came to shove, he was willing to let her die if it meant to stop Jasmine. He was just too late.

Buffyverse Fan said:
Angel knew he could not beat the Master since he lost to him in his early days as Angelus, so he opted not to fight him at all, and left Buffy and the rest of Earth to deal with him.

?
This comparison is inaccurate because of the very reason Angel did not try to fight the Master (which you identified): he knew he couldn't win.
 
wtf-cat.jpg
 
Well I'd heard about it before I read it. My reaction upon hearing about it was "Oh dear..." Then upon reading it, "lolwhut?"
 
Honestly - I think this is definitely a case of having to wait and see how it all plays out.

I've learn thru out this season - not to go too much on my gut reactions. Because unlike the TV series (where twists would unfold in only a week or now) - in comic book form it may take several months for a twist to finally unfold. Note the whole Buffy/Satsu thing.
 
Honestly - I think this is definitely a case of having to wait and see how it all plays out.

I've learn thru out this season - not to go too much on my gut reactions. Because unlike the TV series (where twists would unfold in only a week or now) - in comic book form it may take several months for a twist to finally unfold. Note the whole Buffy/Satsu thing.

That's pretty much what I've decided as well. I'll wait and see...I just don't think I like where it is headed. I hope I'm/we're in for a surprise, though.
 
I'm not really surprised Angel was twilight, his personality fits the profile of someone who would kill innocent people for the greater good. After this I have a newfound respect for Spike, at least he doesn't use excuses to kill people. I have pretty much suspected since the I know that move mentioned in a Beautiful Sunset. I think that there is hope for Spike, but not Angel at this point. He is the better man, at least in my opinon. I've also noticed that in a weird way Spike/William reminds me of a love sick Xander, he strikes me as being similiar now that I think about it.
 
I've noticed that twilight shares similiar traits to angel but i can't understand why he would want to hurt buffy. :confused2:
 
Back
Top Bottom