Your Sexual Orientation.

[zobothehobo]

I don't think human sexuality is clear cut in anyway. However, I do think for myself, when explaining to people who often ask "how do you know if you don't date a guy etc" that scale has been a good tool for helping them understand. I identify closer to the gay higher numbers, but I still know myself to be bisexual. I just often bring up the kinsey scale during discussions because it can sometimes give someone a broader approach to how you define your sexual attractions (in my case why I could be bi when I have - thus far - only been dating females.) That is why I wanted to bring it up.

Ah. I can see how that would be frustrating that people would say you're not bi. I had a friend in high school who was gay and didn't believe in bisexuality. He would go to the kids at school who identified themselves as bi and tell them they were lying to themselves and/or still in the "half closet." When I think about that it makes me SO angry that he was just APPOINTED leader of the GSA by the previous leader. I mean he discriminated against a whole group of the LGBT community and made the club a very uninviting place for those people. Most of the LGBT people in our school identified as bi so the club was pretty much nonexistent. I used to yell at him all the time about that. It irritates me that people WITHIN the LGBT community could be so ignorant and contribute to the hate.

 

[svp]

Very interesting thread. To be honest, i'm not really sure what I am. I know I'm attracted to guys. But I get flashes of attraction for girls as well. I don't know that i'd say i'm bi, because i've never really felt strongly enough about a girl to warrant the label (or to warrant it in my own mind I guess), but I can maybe see myself feeling that way if I were to meet the right girl. So, I guess I'd second what a lot of people have already stated and say that, to me, it's less about the gender and more about the person wearing the body.

 

[zobothehobo]

Very interesting thread. To be honest, i'm not really sure what I am. I know I'm attracted to guys. But I get flashes of attraction for girls as well. I don't know that i'd say i'm bi, because i've never really felt strongly enough about a girl to warrant the label (or to warrant it in my own mind I guess), but I can maybe see myself feeling that way if I were to meet the right girl. So, I guess I'd second what a lot of people have already stated and say that, to me, it's less about the gender and more about the person wearing the body.

See, that's kinda how I feel about guys. There are lots of guys I find attractive... and I get flashes where I'll see a guy and be attracted to him, but then I'll look away and look back and it's gone. It's never been strong enough where I'd say I'm bi... but it's there so I don't want to say it's COMPLETELY out of the question that I'd ever fall for or be with a guy.

 

[Moonset]

It irritates me that people WITHIN the LGBT community could be so ignorant and contribute to the hate.

This is exactly how I feel!

Really sucks about that club. An outlet that could be extremely useful for many people isn't because of a narrowminded viewpoint - which is no different than a straight person hating against homos. Makes me sad!

 

[zobothehobo]

This is exactly how I feel!

Really sucks about that club. An outlet that could be extremely useful for many people isn't because of a narrowminded viewpoint - which is no different than a straight person hating against homos. Makes me sad!

I'd rep, but I can't rep you again yet... I completely agree.

 

[prophecygrrl]

I am bi. But I have only been in relationships with girls so people are quick to have given me a gay label, which doesn't bother me (although I'd prefer the term queer ) but I definitely identify as a bisexual.

*waves* 😀 Hi! Another queer girl checking in.

I'd like to point out the kinsey scale. Its actually, in my opinion, a much more interesting way to view/consider human sexuality. I don't think it's been pointed out?
Kinsey scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

I'd like to offer another perspective on this. 🙂 I like the Kinsey scale because I'm sure a lot of people will relate to it on some way. But then there are those of us who don't, and my concern is that it's too focused on *just* men and women? I think many aspects of identity, including gender, can be based on spectrums as well. And so with the way that intersects with sexual orientation, I don't know if I think the Kinsey scale is representative of universal human sexuality. Personally, it's not totally accurate for me, so I guess that's what makes it especially hard to accept. 😉

 

[zobothehobo]

I'd like to offer another perspective on this. I like the Kinsey scale because I'm sure a lot of people will relate to it on some way. But then there are those of us who don't, and my concern is that it's too focused on *just* men and women? I think many aspects of identity, including gender, can be based on spectrums as well. And so with the way that intersects with sexual orientation, I don't know if I think the Kinsey scale is representative of universal human sexuality. Personally, it's not totally accurate for me, so I guess that's what makes it especially hard to accept.

The gender bit brings up something I always find fascinating about the way we in our society view sexuality. There is a huge dichotomy in the way we view sexuality, and I think it all stems from the even bigger dichotomy of how we view gender. Often times, sex and gender are used completely synonymous, but they're not. My gender does match my sex and I have never questioned that, but I know a lot of people that's not true for. The "T" part of "LGBT" is supposed to represent "transgender." People who's gender don't match their sex, but often times, that part gets overlooked. Often times, because we use sex and gender synonymously, it gets confusing in several different ways. What do we use as our "base"? Gender or sex? What do we judge others on? Gender or sex? No one talks about that because gender is so synonymous with sex. In fact, in the car just now on the way here (mom's) from my dad's house, I was trying to explain the difference between gender and sex to my sister and my mother's husband and both of them couldn't grasp the concept. They said crazy offensive things about transgenders such as "well they were born with girl parts, they should deal with it." That stems from the ignorance of the topic... and they couldn't grasp it... part of that is it's been so ingrained in their heads that sex and gender are the same, even though they're not.

And that is my semi-coherent bit about gender... I could go on and on though. The whole thing fascinates me.

 

[kittenpoker]

And that is my semi-coherent bit about gender... I could go on and on though. The whole thing fascinates me.

It is fascinating! I wish you would go on and on some more. 🙂

 

[zobothehobo]

It is fascinating! I wish you would go on and on some more. 🙂

haha ok. I know that request (or wish) was probably rhetorical, but there was something else I wanted to talk about but I thought I'd rambled too much already. In hindsight, I do kind of want to mention this..

Part of what fascinates me so much is that gender has a grey part too... androgynous. I know people who identify their gender as androgynous, but other people (including a lot of their friends) refuse to recognize androgynous as a gender. To them, it's either male or female. We all have some grey in our gender, I've yet to meet anyone in my life who is strictly with the male gender roles or strictly with the female gender roles. Yet, we identify with the gender we fit the best... that argument was used in the car on the way over her by both my mother's husband and my sister... but what they're failing to see is that androgynous people fit neither "best." When I finally did convey something to that effect to my sister and mother's husband, they said at that point, they should identify their gender based on their sex. Which I said would be rather offensive to someone who is androgynous. And I would imagine it would be.

To give you an idea of how much we view these two (sex and gender) to be the same, in my sociology of diversity class, when talking about master statuses, we put sex/gender as one instead of two. Also to give you an idea of how much androgyny is looked over, in that same class when talking about dichotomies and how they are false and relate to the master statuses we discussed, we talked about intersexuals (AKA people who's biology matches both male and female), but not people who have androgynous genders. It wasn't even mentioned in the text book, although the book did discuss that sex and gender aren't always the same.

Then there's the question relating this to sexuality, I brought up the subject of androgynous genders in that class and we had a class discussion where someone said if we were judging by gender for sexuality, androgynous people would be a-sexual. But that's not necessarily true. I know some androgynous people who are very sexual beings. Most of the androgynous people I know identify as bisexual with a general preference of people of the same biological sex. But they say they connect with both genders equally.

This is just such a fascinating subject to me. I'm very intrigued by how it all fits together.

 

[Washburne]

Sorry, I haven't read the whole post just saw this being quoted. So I might have missed something vital.

Yea, I'm totally for people being who they are. If you're gay, gay it up.

To me that doesn't make sense. Should there be any reason to"gay up" if you're gay? Aren't you just who you are no matter what sexuality you got. You can act gay and be straight and act straight and be gay can't you?

Of course, if someone is hiding who they are it's a total different thing and then I see your point. But that doesn't just go for gays but for everyone. To me you don't have to over do things just because your "this or that". Try to be yourself no matter what it means. Unless you know, you go around fighting, take advantage of people or bully someone. I say that even if I definitely can try and change or dislike how people take care of their lives. I don't approve of getting drunk all the time or using drugs for example. Such a hypocrite... But I don't shut people out because of it. That comes down to behavior. And now I'm really off topic.

so is anyone else seeing the poll as a contest? ;-)

Not at all. But the less straight people we got the more I like it.

 

[InsaneMystic]

[MENTION=10521]prophecygrrl[/MENTION] & [MENTION=10363]zobothehobo[/MENTION]...

The gender thing is my main issue with both this poll and the Kinsey scale, too. Wondering if I'm transgender has been a huge and recurring topic in my life, I'd definitely like a "Kinsey scale equivalent" for that. If we were to set 0 on that scale as "100% identifying with biological gender" and 6 as "100% transgender", I'd rate myself in the 3-4 area (and I've had times feeling closer to a 4-5)... which is exactly why I get seriously huffy if people consider me as "a straight guy". I so am not... regardless of the fact that my biological gender would make me rate around Kinsey's 1 (with quite a bit of X for additional strangeness).

The closest to a label I'd feel comfy with for myself would be "Lesbian of undefined gender". Poll doesn't offer that (would probably need QUITE a number of more options to feature this category, eh? 😉)

 

[zobothehobo]

[MENTION=10521]prophecygrrl[/MENTION] & [MENTION=10363]zobothehobo[/MENTION]...

The gender thing is my main issue with both this poll and the Kinsey scale, too. Wondering if I'm transgender has been a huge and recurring topic in my life, I'd definitely like a "Kinsey scale equivalent" for that. If we were to set 0 on that scale as "100% identifying with biological gender" and 6 as "100% transgender", I'd rate myself in the 3-4 area (and I've had times feeling closer to a 4-5)... which is exactly why I get seriously huffy if people consider me as "a straight guy". I so am not... regardless of the fact that my biological gender would make me rate around Kinsey's 1 (with quite a bit of X for additional strangeness).

The closest to a label I'd feel comfy with for myself would be "Lesbian of undefined gender". Poll doesn't offer that (would probably need QUITE a number of more options to feature this category, eh? 😉)

I know someone else who identifies with that label too. I met them on tumblr. Oh I love the internet. Although I do kind of want to say one more thing... I hate that there have to be labels on these things 'cause I do feel like it excludes a lot and puts pressure on people to "figure it out" when it's a lot more complicated than that sometimes.

 

[Washburne]

[MENTION=10889]Abby27[/MENTION] The time he asks Willow to gay him up? "Lets gay!" I love that scene. For what it is. Taken out of context as I did earlier I stand by what I said. 😉

 

[prophecygrrl]

[MENTION=10521]prophecygrrl[/MENTION] & [MENTION=10363]zobothehobo[/MENTION]...

The gender thing is my main issue with both this poll and the Kinsey scale, too. Wondering if I'm transgender has been a huge and recurring topic in my life, I'd definitely like a "Kinsey scale equivalent" for that. If we were to set 0 on that scale as "100% identifying with biological gender" and 6 as "100% transgender", I'd rate myself in the 3-4 area (and I've had times feeling closer to a 4-5)... which is exactly why I get seriously huffy if people consider me as "a straight guy". I so am not... regardless of the fact that my biological gender would make me rate around Kinsey's 1 (with quite a bit of X for additional strangeness).

The closest to a label I'd feel comfy with for myself would be "Lesbian of undefined gender". Poll doesn't offer that (would probably need QUITE a number of more options to feature this category, eh? 😉)

We should have fill-in-the-blank options on polls, lol! 😀

I mean personally I am comfortable with the gender I was assigned at birth. That's who I am, so I can't speak fully on transgender/gender identity issues. It's not my place to speak for other people. But the issue I personally have with the Kinsey scale (and the Klein grid, and whatever else they're coming up with these days!) is that when it comes to my sexuality, I am attracted to many kinds of people, including people who don't identify as men or women. When sexuality is seen as something that only represents two genders, well, that denies both my identity and others', doesn't it? I'm no expert on gender or sex or whatever, but I know what I feel.

I'm sticking to the belief that sexual orientation, gender, and individual expression of each are far too complex and diverse for scales and grids. 😛

eta- since I quoted IM's post, I just @mentioned myself. Lol. That was weird to see. Sorry. returning to regular programming.

 

[kittenpoker]

[mention]zobothehobo[\mention]. Not rhetorical at all. I find what you're saying about sex and gender very interesting!!!

I'll respond more later, when I'm more awake.

---------- Post added at 07:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:13 AM ----------

apparently I suck at the quoting and mentioning thing... (trying again)

[MENTION=10363]zobothehobo[/MENTION], I think what you're saying is very interesting. There's so much to it... identity... gender, sex.... internal feelings, external reactions, you know what I mean? there's the way we see ourselves and the way others see us and one bleeds into the other... it's confusing.

[mention]washburn[/mention], I was joking about seeing the poll as a competition...but there's that part of me that's like, "come on, bi and homosexuals, the heterosexuals are winning!" "go team." ;-) don't mind me, I'm just silly.

this is a really interesting discussion all around.


edit... I really do suck at mentioning.... first thought was to zobothehobo, second was to washburn. Man, I am so not internet savvy. sorry guys!

thank you, everyone, for participating.

 

[Moonset]

[MENTION=10363]zobothehobo[/MENTION]

I really enjoyed reading the posts you brought up about androgyny and gender vs. sex. The latter is especially vital if you are trying to label yourself, even if its something as simple as a forum poll. Really good you brought this up!

*waves* 😀 Hi! Another queer girl checking in.

Queers unite! 😉

I'm sticking to the belief that sexual orientation, gender, and individual expression of each are far too complex and diverse for scales and grids. 😛

This is really true.

Although for most of mainstream society claiming a "gay / bi / straight" identity is quite frankly the simplest method (like how this might have been a simple discussion on another board with people of different thoughts or beliefs) but sexuality is definitely far to complicated a subject in all actuality. And its really nice that so many of us (and especially the younger generation in general nowadays) share this thought. To someone that has a more narrow minded view point like some of the stories mention, it's simple to them.. which can make for very frustrating topical discussion (politics, religion and sexuality = butting heads).

I actually really dislike labels although I can understand why the exist. Some come from a joking manner (emo, hipster etc) and some are just there because a lot of people just can't see beyond something right in front of them. Such as a gay guy that is totally flamboyant (such as the 'gay it up' remark might have suggested), or one that is more reserved, isn't any less gay. Sure, someone can totally own their queerness but it doesn't make them a better gay. For example, my GF at the time seems to be "embracing" her lesbian side more - and by this I mean flashing it all over town (well primarily LGBT circles). Now if thats who you are then fine, but for myself, I'm not this way. I don't need a rainbow flag (although I'm all for the equality one!), t-shirt or a (no offense people) "Mother Monster" to make me feel okay with who I am. But it doesn't mean I'm ashamed of it. In fact I'm out to more people than she is, but I just am naturally quite shy and reserved.

Speaking of labels.. oh lordy I'm going on and on! Lets get into the labels of particular gay communities. For instance, I would be clearly labeled a "lipstick" or "Femme" (and I prefer the latter) - I'm super girly in the most traditional way of make-up, hair, dresses and pink - as is my GF - and that confuses people. "They don't look gay! I would have never known!" arguments are really offensive to me. As with the discussion of sexual orientation not being simple, further labeling complicates even more. When a friend asks me to discuss they kinds of guys or girls I'm attracted to, its a hard thing to get into unless the person is open minded themselves. While I used to only be attracted to prominently girly type women, that has since changed with age and all comes back to it being about the person. Like how when someone says "what's your type?" - well gee, I dunno! I can't say I'm only gonna be attracted to a brunette because hey that red head over there is pretty damn hot! 😉 Although I will say that with guys my type is more noticeable amongst my friends, but then you bring in something like androgyny and more and more layers unravel. I just personally don't get how anyone can only say they can only ever love one kind of person - boy, girl, trans, particular race, age etc. Open yourself up, and you never know what you might find. But obviously fear keeps a lot of people from doing this. But I do consider myself a bi-sexual so perhaps that is why I have that viewpoint since I don't know what its like to only be attracted to x.

this is a really interesting discussion all around.

I agree that this is a really good and fascinating thread in my opinion. 🙂 Sorry if I am going on and on. I just really enjoy reading people's thoughts on these subjects.

 

[kittenpoker]

very interesting thoughts, moonset!

I guess there are 3 issues here... gender, sex, and attraction.

have any of you ever been surprised by the person you found yourself attracted to? like, someone you never would have thought was your "type"?

 

[Mithol]

Well, I'm straight. Though I would turn gay for Major Kira from DS9. 😎 And I am at a stage in my life and my development where I can openly appreciate women's beauty to myself without feeling insecure about my sexuality. Because whatever I feel is what I am. And what's the big deal about that?

I am liking this thread. I have been a member at a few different forums where the people weren't so... accepting. And it makes me mad.

But places like this make me happy and hopeful!

 

[NothingButSong]

Homosexual. I don't think I've ever been sexually attracted to a female.

 

[Fredsicle]

Homosexual. Except for Fred <3