"You're Welcome" Buffy?

[Vengeance]

Bucking the trend I personally wish Buffy had come back. Yeah, I know, we already got our reunion in Chosen but I detest Cangel and a whole episode devoted to it was just meh. Perhaps they could've resolved Cordy in a different episode.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

Bucking the trend I personally wish Buffy had come back. Yeah, I know, we already got our reunion in Chosen but I detest Cangel and a whole episode devoted to it was just meh. Perhaps they could've resolved Cordy in a different episode.

The episode wasn't completely devoted to their romance. 😕

 

[Vengeance]

No, not the whole thing, I should have rephrased. "an episode partially devoted to it"

 

[crazysoulless]

I would have greatly preferred Buffy in Your Welcome.

After Angel realized he hadn't even really seen Cordelia since Tomorrow and hadn't realized that the person he had the fantasy about in the Shaman-dream (really disturbing since Jasmi-Cordy was preggers with his grandchild at the time) and been moping over was Jasmi-Cordy he went back to his Buffy feelings. He wanted to get back together with her in Chosen and S5 of AtS had as many Buffy references as S1.

I really hated that line when he said to Cordelia, "I am lost without you". He was lost with her. Each season he got a little bit further away from the humble hero he used to be at the start of the series. They bought into the whole "we're champions" mentality. He spent all of S1 trying to get her to understand what AI was really about (she created it as a way to make money, got mad that he didn't want to charge people, pestered Doyle to have more visions), fired the team in S2 and tried to bring forth Angelus by having sex with Darla, tried to enter into a romantic relationship with her forgetting his noble and selfless reasons for leaving Buffy and choosing to be alone in the first place, and was oblvious to the fact that there was an evil villain in Cordy's body and that it wasn't Cordelia screwing the kid whose diapers she helped change the previous year.

I really hated when Cordy said, "they (the PTB) owe me". They did not owe her a damn thing! She was made a Seer by Doyle. She chose to stay Vision Girl even though it was killing her (she wasn't meant to have the visions) and didn't try to find a way to keep them and not die (she knew for over a year the damage they were doing to her). She chose to listen to Skip and become part demon (tricked by the unrealistic and fake alt-world). She chose to believe Skip that she was a Higher Being that needed to leave Earth (she ended up just dangling in the sky wanting AI to rescue her).

The vision she gave Angel lead to Wesley's death and the entire city of Los Angeles being sent to Hell thanks to Angel's suicide mission against the Circle of the Black Thorn. Thousands of humans probably died. Angel wanting to destroy that branch of Wolfram & Hart was vengeance and other things that had nothing to do with his original mission of finding redemption through helping others redeem and small acts of kindness.

I hated that Cordy seemed proud of Angel for beating Lindsey and he was smug for it. Its even more wrong when you remember he ends up having Lindsey murdered with no remorse.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

fired the team in S2 and tried to bring forth Angelus by having sex with Darla,

Why are you holding that against Cordelia...? 😕

I really hated when Cordy said, "they (the PTB) owe me". They did not owe her a damn thing! She was made a Seer by Doyle. She chose to stay Vision Girl even though it was killing her (she wasn't meant to have the visions) and didn't try to find a way to keep them and not die (she knew for over a year the damage they were doing to her). She chose to listen to Skip and become part demon (tricked by the unrealistic and fake alt-world). She chose to believe Skip that she was a Higher Being that needed to leave Earth (she ended up just dangling in the sky wanting AI to rescue her).

The PTB were powerful enough to stop what was going on. She was loyal to them and served them and they let the Jasmine possession happen. And really if they didn't owe her anything, what happened in You're Welcome wouldn't have happened at all.

The vision she gave Angel lead to Wesley's death and the entire city of Los Angeles being sent to Hell thanks to Angel's suicide mission against the Circle of the Black Thorn.

Angel (foolishly) underestimated the Senior Partners and thought they'd just punish him and the rest. Can't blame her for his being stupid.

Thousands of humans probably died.

They're all alive again by the end.

 

[crazysoulless]

I wasn't blaming her for his sleeping with Darla. I was just saying that he was lost when she was there too. It wasn't just after she was gone.

Was it ever made clear that it was the PTB that let her have one more day on Earth before she died? As for the vision I think she could have given that to him without the involvement of the PTB the way that Doyle was able to pass on being a Seer to her right before his death.

If she didn't think he was going to go after the Circle of the Black Thorn why did she give him a vision of the members in it? What did she think he was going to do with the vision?

I don't remember the ATF comics that well. How would they be alive again? Was time actually reset to the alleyway confrontation or was it just that they returned to Earth and since time works differently in Hell a few months there was only a few minutes on Earth? Even if they were alive again they retained the memories. It had to be traumatic to be sent to Hell and then brutally murdered by demons. And they may have been ripped out of Heaven (ala Buffy) to be placed back in their bodies for the reset or return to Earth.

 

[GrrArghx]

Cordy didn't give him the vision. She gave him the ability to have visions. The Powers that Be are the ones who send the visions to the seer.

And, as for her having one last day on Earth. I think it was obvious it was the Powers because they made her spirit corporeal while her real body was still in a coma. That's why technically 'she never woke up'.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

I wasn't blaming her for his sleeping with Darla. I was just saying that he was lost when she was there too. It wasn't just after she was gone.

I see...not that I agree. 😛

Was it ever made clear that it was the PTB that let her have one more day on Earth before she died? As for the vision I think she could have given that to him without the involvement of the PTB the way that Doyle was able to pass on being a Seer to her right before his death.

I believe so. She ended up becoming a legitimate higher being for them, which was shown in AtF.

If she didn't think he was going to go after the Circle of the Black Thorn why did she give him a vision of the members in it? What did she think he was going to do with the vision?

He could have thought up a less crazy plan, I guess. I dunno.

I don't remember the ATF comics that well. How would they be alive again? Was time actually reset to the alleyway confrontation or was it just that they returned to Earth and since time works differently in Hell a few months there was only a few minutes on Earth?

Time was reset. Angel was turned human sometime during the alleyway confrontation and he was a vampire again when things were restored.

Even if they were alive again they retained the memories. It had to be traumatic to be sent to Hell and then brutally murdered by demons. And they may have been ripped out of Heaven (ala Buffy) to be placed back in their bodies for the reset or return to Earth.

Yeah, I won't deny that.

 

[crazysoulless]

I thought he only had that one vision (not including the one from ATF about his part in the apocalypse). Was it stated that he was now a Seer? It is the PTB that usually send the visions but not always as the beginning of AtS proved with Wolfram & Hart doing what they did to Cordelia.

 

[GrrArghx]

Oh, I don't know about After The Fall. ^ But when she kissed him, it did the same blue thingy when Doyle kissed her, lol.
Regardless, I don't think Cor has anything to do with what visions he has. She just passed them onto him in general, I think.

 

[crazysoulless]

Hmm, I thought she had a vision and then decided to pass it along to him regardless of what the Powers That Be wanted because they "owed" her since she knew she was dead.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

Angel only had the one vision from her. He had another one in AtF but that was from Wesley via the Senior Partners.

Hmm, I thought she had a vision and then decided to pass it along to him regardless of what the Powers That Be wanted because they "owed" her since she knew she was dead.

That could be. Or they didn't know exactly what Angel would do with it.

Even before the Jasmine situation they weren't portrayed as perfect.

 

[crazysoulless]

Its funny that I want Buffy there to have prevented Cangel but would never want Angel there to get in the way of Spuffy.

I have read a few fan fictions of Buffy singing for Lorne and he feels how much emotional pain she is in, the isolation and depression and detachment and shame and self-hatred and stress and guilt and pressure to live by her self-imposed moral code and be the perfect leader.

I've always wanted an episode of AtS involving Buffy's estranged father Hank Summers. He goes to the Fang Gang for help and Angel has to decide whether or not to inform Buffy what is going on.

 

[saturn5]

I would have greatly preferred Buffy in Your Welcome.

After Angel realized he hadn't even really seen Cordelia since Tomorrow and hadn't realized that the person he had the fantasy about in the Shaman-dream (really disturbing since Jasmi-Cordy was preggers with his grandchild at the time) and been moping over was Jasmi-Cordy he went back to his Buffy feelings. He wanted to get back together with her in Chosen and S5 of AtS had as many Buffy references as S1.

I really hated that line when he said to Cordelia, "I am lost without you". He was lost with her. Each season he got a little bit further away from the humble hero he used to be at the start of the series. They bought into the whole "we're champions" mentality. He spent all of S1 trying to get her to understand what AI was really about (she created it as a way to make money, got mad that he didn't want to charge people, pestered Doyle to have more visions), fired the team in S2 and tried to bring forth Angelus by having sex with Darla, tried to enter into a romantic relationship with her forgetting his noble and selfless reasons for leaving Buffy and choosing to be alone in the first place, and was oblvious to the fact that there was an evil villain in Cordy's body and that it wasn't Cordelia screwing the kid whose diapers she helped change the previous year.

I really hated when Cordy said, "they (the PTB) owe me". They did not owe her a damn thing! She was made a Seer by Doyle. She chose to stay Vision Girl even though it was killing her (she wasn't meant to have the visions) and didn't try to find a way to keep them and not die (she knew for over a year the damage they were doing to her). She chose to listen to Skip and become part demon (tricked by the unrealistic and fake alt-world). She chose to believe Skip that she was a Higher Being that needed to leave Earth (she ended up just dangling in the sky wanting AI to rescue her).

The vision she gave Angel lead to Wesley's death and the entire city of Los Angeles being sent to Hell thanks to Angel's suicide mission against the Circle of the Black Thorn. Thousands of humans probably died. Angel wanting to destroy that branch of Wolfram & Hart was vengeance and other things that had nothing to do with his original mission of finding redemption through helping others redeem and small acts of kindness.

I hated that Cordy seemed proud of Angel for beating Lindsey and he was smug for it. Its even more wrong when you remember he ends up having Lindsey murdered with no remorse.

Considering what Lindsey had put them through I think a little smugness was warranted. And as Lorne said Lindsey wasn't part of the solution he was part of the problem, he had the chance to walk away and he blew it (and remember Lorne read Lindsey and knew his soul)

"I've heard you sing!"

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

Considering what Lindsey had put them through I think a little smugness was warranted.

Yeah, Lindsey spent a lot of energy trying to 'get to' Angel. Wasn't he trying to activate something that would kill him then? Also he was mocking their old friend. I'd be smug.

And as Lorne said Lindsey wasn't part of the solution he was part of the problem, he had the chance to walk away and he blew it (and remember Lorne read Lindsey and knew his soul)

"I've heard you sing!"

I can't exactly say I disagree with the reasonings for having Lindsey killed in the end, I just thought it was effed up to have Lorne do it.

 

[saturn5]

Its funny that I want Buffy there to have prevented Cangel but would never want Angel there to get in the way of Spuffy.

I have read a few fan fictions of Buffy singing for Lorne and he feels how much emotional pain she is in, the isolation and depression and detachment and shame and self-hatred and stress and guilt and pressure to live by her self-imposed moral code and be the perfect leader.

I've always wanted an episode of AtS involving Buffy's estranged father Hank Summers. He goes to the Fang Gang for help and Angel has to decide whether or not to inform Buffy what is going on.

That is a COOL idea!

---------- Post added at 02:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:58 PM ----------

Yeah, Lindsey spent a lot of energy trying to 'get to' Angel. Wasn't he trying to activate something that would kill him then? Also he was mocking their old friend. I'd be smug.







I can't exactly say I disagree with the reasonings for having Lindsey killed in the end, I just thought it was effed up to have Lorne do it.

Actually I think Lorne killing Lindsey is a masterstroke, the clown becomes the tragic figure

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

Actually I think Lorne killing Lindsey is a masterstroke, the clown becomes the tragic figure

From a storytelling point of view I guess I can see your point but it was a dick move for Angel to tell him to do it. It was a great scene though.

 

[crazysoulless]

A lot of the characters in the Buffyverse had ample chance to walk away from the dark path and chose not to. It is usually after they have done something truly heinous and some would say utterly unforgivable that they decide to redeem. Look at how lengthy Willow and Anya and Faith and Andrew's list of wrongdoings are. I couldn't believe that the same person that defended Faith's emotions and well-being at the expense of angering and alienating the person he loved most in the world could have no faith in the idea that the souled human Lindsey could change. Faith and Lindsey had bad childhoods and chose to do evil when they were adults. Who is to say that Lindsey's "I'm bad! Kill me!" moment wasn't going to happen someday? Lorne had been wrong before with his visions and one of the points of seeing into the future in the Buffyverse is to find a way to change things so that reality never happens. He opted for the easy choice of having a human (one who already showed signs of love (Eve) and comaderie (helping them take out the Black Thorn) murdered.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

As for Lindsey/Lorne and Lorne reading Lindsey, what if Lorne read that Lindsey's destiny was to die at the hands of Lorne? Hm.

 

[crazysoulless]

That reminds me of Cordelia's vision in Tomorrow. She realized she loved Angel because she saw a vision of herself saying "I love Angel" which she only said because she heard herself say it a half an hour earlier in the vision.

It would be interesting if Lorne agreed to kill Lindsey because he saw in Lindsey's future that he had killed him.