You're Welcome: Rewind Moments

nerd4hire

nerd4hire

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I finally had a chance to view my You're Welcome tape.

Maybe it's just me but I caught a bunch of stuff that didn't seem to be significant the first time I watched the episode, but on second viewing I'm thinking maybe it was.

I don't know. I'll share, and you tell me.

1. Wes doesn't seem to remember Jasmine. You wouldn't expect him to, but this is the first time I've noticed them pointing at that.

2. Cordelia still appears to be under the influence of the Power that Be. She appears to be aware of everything that happened to her in S4, yet she still trusts the Powers, and distrusts Wolfram & Hart. This seems to weaken theories I've seen on message boards (no, not just yours' Ally) of any connection between The SP and the PTB.

3. When Lindsey is laying with Eve he disavows any connection to the PTB. This kills theories of Lindsey working for the PTB.

2 and 3 are interesting, because who's who at the zoo is coming into a clearer focus. The Sp and PTB are separate entities. We know that now. Lindsey was not alligned with the SP or the PTB. Unless someone like The First tuns up, we have to believe Lindsey and Eve (Lindsey at least) were working solo.

4. When Cordelia and Wes are "kicking it old school" researching the symbols she saw in her vision, there is a notebook on the desk where Cordelia has been drawing some of the symbols she has been researching. One of those symbols in the book is the semi-stickman symbol carved into Spike's chest in Never Leave Me.

5. In the Scene where Spike bites Cordelia, there are just a ton of quick jokes I missed the first time. I forgot to write them down. I'll get them next time.

6 Angel says the Senior Partners altered reality, and gave Connor a life. That is why the fang gang have no memory of Connor. It isn't because the SP wiped memories from selected people's brains. It's because the entire reality has been altered. Everyone's memories are now of that reality. Cordelia would have existed outside of that reality, so she still remembers. Why Eve though? Why does she know? I guess the Senior Partners could have told her. They're outside of both realities.

7. Cordelia gets choked up watching an old video of Doyle. Does this mean Doyle is not available to her in the Heaven dimension from whence she came? Is Doyle in Hell?
 
nerd4hire said:
Is Doyle in Hell?
Click to expand...


Oh, I hope not! I think it might have been an attempt to get the original four all back for Cordy's last episode (Cordy, Angel, Lindsey, and Doyle were all in the pilot). Also, I think they were trying to make Angel feel badly because he's not the same hero he was then.


btw, bonus points for using the phrase "from whence she came." 🙂
 
The way I see it, Cordelia has just died, and has not yet gone to the PTB place (lol) - so she probably will see Doyle, but not until she left Angel et al. In short she's just not gotten there yet.

jmho
 
And Cordelia says something about Doyle being the first of the AI team to die, but as of that point we are not aware of any other of the Angel Investigations team dying(I dont think) so is she hinting to Angel that she is dead?
 
Well, Angel did die...but that was a whole year before he formed AI.....
But I like Billie's theory...I think she was trying to hint to Angel...maybe she was also hinting that more will die😉
 
BillieHunter said:
And Cordelia says something about Doyle being the first of the AI team to die, but as of that point we are not aware of any other of the Angel Investigations team dying(I dont think) so is she hinting to Angel that she is dead?
Click to expand...
I don't know if Cordy was dead in Angel's reality at that point. Bear with me a minute. If Cordy was already dead her ghost or avatar would have had to be speaking to Angel, but the events don't add up to Cordy being anything but human. Angel and Wesley are able to touch her; she is utterly real for them. When Spike bites her, he says she tastes human. Wouldn't avatar of a dead woman tase of the higher powers?
Anyway, this is my theory and it may not work, but its my best attempt to make since of the Cordy paradox. We know that the powers that be can alter reality. They did so for Cordy it the episode (I forget the name) in which the visions were killing her and knocked her out of her body. The powers created an alternate reality in which Cordy had never met Angel, yet they weren't able to change everything and when Cordy went back to the places she had been their were traces of the old reality. I think Cordy's body in the hospital room was a trace of reality. It is possible that since the visions that killed Cordy were from the powers that be she was able to ask them for a favor. She hinted that the powers were granting her request. I think they created a pocket outside of normal time in which the laws of reality were suspended. In the real world Cordy would die after she had her vision. There were no other possible outcomes. I think the powers suspended fate and created another temporary reality in which Cordy lived. She was able to say goodby to Angel and her friends. There is no evidence that all the people in the episode were illusionary. Cordy was real and human and everyone who met her reacted in unpredictatble ways that neither Angel nor Cordy could anticipate, hence it was not a hallucination. I think that Cordy was hinting to Angel not that she was dead, but that she was going to die. The real question in whether everthing that happened on the episode only exists in Angel's memory or if everyone else remebers it as well. If everyone remebers it did the events happen in this world? I guess what I'm asking is will everyone (or just Angel) wake up the next day and remember that Cordeila woke up from her coma and came to them to say goodby? Did the events in this episode really happen? Did they actually fight Linsey or was everthing just an experence that Angel (at least) will remember that doesn't change anything in the real world?
 
I like your theory Hitome.

I also like the theory of Eric Faustus where Cordy in You're Welcome is a coporeal astral projection.

I have a minor problem with that one in that Angel get's 2 phone calls, one telling him Cordelia is cured and another telling him Cordelia is dead.

Your theory of a temporary interwoven alternate reality makes sense of that. The astral projection thing ignores it.

In my opinion if you are correct, then yes, everyone would remember what happened after the alternate reality merged with the original reality after the kiss. It isn't the same thing as the Connor situation where the alternate reality actually replaced a known reality.

Oh one thing though. It doesn't affect your theory at all, but I want to correct you. Spike doesn't say Cordelia tastes human. He says she doesn't taste like a demon.
 
I'm sorry, but Angel never died. Liam, the human who would become Angel died, but that was around 250 years before AI.
 
WatcherWes said:
I'm sorry, but Angel never died. Liam, the human who would become Angel died, but that was around 250 years before AI.
Click to expand...

You are fast Watcher Wes. It was typo. I fixed it, I swear, 10 seconds after it posted. How the Hell did you do that. You're like lightning man.

Edit:

Now I look, and I see Buffy Summer's got in there in the same 10 seconds. Amazing, but now I have to explain or it won't make sense. They're talking about this sentence:

Angel get's 2 phone calls, one telling him Cordelia is cured and another telling him Cordelia is dead.
Click to expand...

Originally it read:

Angel get's 2 phone calls, one telling him Cordelia is cured and another telling him Angel is dead.
Click to expand...

I swear it was only up there for 10 stinky little seconds.
 
And the award goes to...Buffy Summers...
Yes...I was speaking of "The Becomming pt2" when Buffy kills him...
But I just thought of something...Buffy has always said she killed him...she said this in "Faith, Hope, and Trick", "Selfless", and again in "The Chosen"...

But did she really kill him?
I mean...she stabbed him through the chest...and that doesn't kill vampires...Yes...he was sucked into a Hell Dimension...but technically he was alive when he was sucked into that dimension...so did she really kill him?
Other characters have gone to Hell dimensions before...Amy's mother, Holtz and Conner..but they didn't die...and it's not like Angel hasn't been stabbed in the chest with metal objects before...so technically...Buffy never killed him...she simply sent him to another dimension...
Does that make sense to anyone else?
 
Oh one last thing, as long as I'm eating crow.

Buffy is correct. I hadn't considered that. If Cordelia herself made the first phone call, then yeah, Eric's "Corporeal Astral Projection" theory makes sense too.

Edit again after seeing Vicious's reply:

God! Now you're telling me it wasn't even my reply you guys were talking about. I'm going to shut up, and get some sleep now.

There were a whole bunch of replies all falling on top of each other.

This new board is too fast Buffy. ::blush:: I can't keep up. ::dk::
 
Don't worry...Nerd4Hire..it might have been me who was under the wrong impression...they might have been talking about your post...that's the way it seems anyway...
~pats nerd on the back~
You're not the only confused one in the bunch😉
 
(recovers a day later)... OK back on topic.

Just in case someone besides myself missed all the quick jokes in and around the Spike bites Cordelia scene, the first time they saw the ep I'll post them here. It starts like:

(Cordelia shrugs, seemingly lost; turns around to see Spike walking toward her)
Spike.
(smiles, laughs)
Well, well. I heard you weren't evil anymore, which kind of makes the hair silly.
(Spike changes into vampire facade)
Or nice?
Click to expand...

Then goes...

SPIKE
(puts Angel in a headlock)
You took me on and lost, remember, old man?

ANGEL
Touch Cordelia again...
(breaks free of Spike's grip, lifts Spike into the air and throws Spike to the ground)
get ready for our very last rematch.

SPIKE
(getting to his feet)
She's evil, you gourmless tit.

CORDELIA
(holding her neck, indignant)
Excuse me? Who bit whom?

ANGEL
Did you call me a tit?

CORDELIA
I thought he had a soul.

SPIKE
(points at Cordelia)
(to Angel) I thought she didn't.

CORDELIA
I do.

SPIKE
So do I.

CORDELIA
Well, clearly, mine's better.

SPIKE
(steps toward Cordelia)
Look"”

ANGEL
(grabs Spike by the lapels and throws his back into the wall)
I see fangs, I'm gonna play dentist.

CORDELIA
And you called this guy the big hero?

SPIKE
(to Angel) You called me a hero?

ANGEL
I didn't know you were eating people.

SPIKE
(headbutts Angel, sending them apart, both reeling and holding their foreheads in pain)
Ow! God. It was a taste test, you git. I needed to know if what my source said is true.
(to Cordelia) And, actually, well, you don't taste evil. Demons are more...astringent with a sort of oakie, really"”
Click to expand...
 
1. Wes doesn't seem to remember Jasmine. You wouldn't expect him to, but this is the first time I've noticed them pointing at that.
Click to expand...

He didn't, I've check the transcript, but Jasmine isn't mentioned in it. Wes did comment on Darth Chase, and he said he forgave Cordy, that it wasn't her and stuff. Could you perhaps post the actuall piece where they referre to Jasmine according to you?

2. Cordelia still appears to be under the influence of the Power that Be. She appears to be aware of everything that happened to her in S4, yet she still trusts the Powers, and distrusts Wolfram & Hart. This seems to weaken theories I've seen on message boards (no, not just yours' Ally) of any connection between The SP and the PTB.
Click to expand...

Actually, this episode was more prove that the PTB are the SP. Angel decided to quit, and then Cordy awoke. Cordy talk him into more insecurity, but right before she left, she told him, she trusted him and that he was doing the right thing, and in the end Angel stays with W&H. So I still say, the PTB are the SP.

3. When Lindsey is laying with Eve he disavows any connection to the PTB. This kills theories of Lindsey working for the PTB.

2 and 3 are interesting, because who's who at the zoo is coming into a clearer focus. The Sp and PTB are separate entities. We know that now. Lindsey was not alligned with the SP or the PTB. Unless someone like The First tuns up, we have to believe Lindsey and Eve (Lindsey at least) were working solo.

4. When Cordelia and Wes are "kicking it old school" researching the symbols she saw in her vision, there is a notebook on the desk where Cordelia has been drawing some of the symbols she has been researching. One of those symbols in the book is the semi-stickman symbol carved into Spike's chest in Never Leave Me.
Click to expand...

Since Lindsey hates the SP, and the SP are the PTB 😉, he must therefore also hate the PTB. And the symbols seem to be the First's, so he may still be an agent of the First.

6 Angel says the Senior Partners altered reality, and gave Connor a life. That is why the fang gang have no memory of Connor. It isn't because the SP wiped memories from selected people's brains. It's because the entire reality has been altered. Everyone's memories are now of that reality. Cordelia would have existed outside of that reality, so she still remembers. Why Eve though? Why does she know? I guess the Senior Partners could have told her. They're outside of both realities.
Click to expand...

Eve wouldn't have any memory of Connor anyway. I think that the SP informed her about what had happened. Why Angel is working for them.

7. Cordelia gets choked up watching an old video of Doyle. Does this mean Doyle is not available to her in the Heaven dimension from whence she came? Is Doyle in Hell?
Click to expand...

It was never said that Cordelia was in heaven, she was up in some higher plane, but that isn't nescessairly heaven.
 
Allycat said:
He didn't, I've check the transcript, but Jasmine isn't mentioned in it. Wes did comment on Darth Chase, and he said he forgave Cordy, that it wasn't her and stuff. Could you perhaps post the actuall piece where they referred to Jasmine according to you?
Click to expand...

It's not mentioned in black and white. You almost have to read between the lines. That's why it's a rewind moment. I didn't catch it the first time. You'll have to watch your download again. A transcript won't help you. You'll find it right about this point in the episode:

"CORDELIA
Last year? Yeah. I remember everything... pretty much. At least until I slipped into slumberland. Maternal instincts aside, I hope you kicked its ass for me.
(Angel says nothing but shoots an awkward glance at Wesley, who doesn't react)
Is everybody all right?"





Actually, this episode was more prove that the PTB are the SP. Angel decided to quit, and then Cordy awoke. Cordy talk him into more insecurity, but right before she left, she told him, she trusted him and that he was doing the right thing, and in the end Angel stays with W&H. So I still say, the PTB are the SP.
Click to expand...

Good spin... I have to admit, I hope you're not correct though. In my brain the PTB are good, and Cordy left the series as an angel. I like it better my way.



Since Lindsey hates the SP, and the SP are the PTB 😉, he must therefore also hate the PTB. And the symbols seem to be the First's, so he may still be an agent of the First.
Click to expand...

Assuming your theory the SP are connected to the PTB is correct, Lindsey doesn't seem to be aware of it. He says the PTB are just getting interested now.

"LINDSEY
She's awake. That means the powers that be are getting nervous. Taking an interest. Higher stakes. That likes me fine. Not sitting at the $5 table anymore. "

But I agree with you on one thing. There's nothing so far saying Lindsey, or Eve, or Lindsey and Eve could not be agents of the First. In Lindsey's case I doubt it though. He seems to working out his own grudges when he's talking to Eve and they say:

EVE
You know the house always wins.

LINDSEY
So the question becomes whose house are we in? The senior partners gave that eurotrash vampire everything I've worked for. I couldn't let that slide. They didn't see me coming. Maybe they're getting too old for this.



Eve wouldn't have any memory of Connor anyway. I think that the SP informed her about what had happened. Why Angel is working for them.
Click to expand...

Agreed.



It was never said that Cordelia was in heaven, she was up in some higher plane, but that isn't nescessairly heaven.
Click to expand...

That's true of course, but the question "is Doyled in Hell?" is meant to be a fun question, based on a fun interpretation of the facts. I thought that was obvious. Oh well...hey, now that you know the rules, wanna nother one? If there are hell dimensions in the buffyverse, does that mean there are also heaven dimensions?
 
Cordelia is offcourse (like Lindsey, as you correctly pointed out) not aware of the connection. Her direct superiors probably just told her that Angel should stick with the firm for now, and Cordelia, trusting them, just did what she fought was right, so she went out doing the good thing.
 
nerd4hire,
I have a question. My brother said that the time of day was different when Angel recieved the phone call at the begining of the episode and at the end. Is this true?
 
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