Episode Discussion Discussion of 8.39 "Last Gleaming Part 4" - Released 11/01/10 (Dark Horse) #2

Buffy the Vampire Slayer #39: Last Gleaming part 4 (Georges Jeanty cover)
Writer: Joss Whedon, Scott Allie
Artist: Georges Jeanty

It's war, and there will be casualties not soon forgotten as Buffy faces her most fearsome enemy.
Buffy creator Joss Whedon and series artist Georges Jeanty join forces for the most emotional issue to date as they approach the finale of Season Eight

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Continue discussing this issue! Is this the first comic we've reached a second discussion thread for? Well done people 🙂

I agree that Angel's actions have been way out of line this time, but at the same time I dont really find earlier actions in ATS that people think are equally bad as bad (that even a correct sentence?XD), guess I've been more of a "big picture"-person at times. I also agree with Icarium on thinking this is Angel acting stupider than before, the arguments don't hold up at all-_-

I guess since I've really considered him a champion/hero for so long, despite bad actions in the past, it's equally hard to think he would do such things without valid reasons, and yet none has been given.

About the "people never really have to pay for what they do"-discussion I really think there won't be an easy way out for Angel this time, I'm guessing he'll feel quite suicidal after this.

I think this last issue was really good!^^ I can understand everybodys disappointment with season 8 but me I just sort of read some last year and then caught up and re-read them the last month so the wait hasn't been that long. Now I just want season 9 to start!

Btw Hi everyone!😀 (former lurker😛)

---------- Post added at 10:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 PM ----------

and oh! I do mourn Giles!🙁

I'm going to have to side with the people who sees Angel as how his character was on Ats. I get the feeling that he is a character that is willing to sacrifice anybody for the greater good except his "family" for which he'll sacrifice the world.

On a side note, the part in S5 when Spike is duped by Lindsey into believing he's a good guy and telling him to save people is rather funny now. Considering that when Lindsey told Spike to kill Cordy he at least checked first and then Angel was sarcastic about his mental capacity for being tricked by Lindsey but at least he figured it out himself which is more than you can say about Angel 😀

As a Giles-lover, I'm really upset with his death here. After all the weirdness of Season 8 and it ends with Angel killing Giles? It just makes me wish that they staked Angel upon his return in Season 3. I just keep picturing Giles talking to Buffy in "Revelations" when she thanks him for sticking up for her when the gang is upset with her hiding Angel's return:

"I won't remind you that the fate of the world often lies with the Slayer. What would be the point? Nor shall I remind you that you've jeopardized the lives of all that you hold dear by harboring a known murderer. But, sadly, I must remind you that Angel tortured me... for hours... for pleasure. You should have told me he was alive. You didn't. You have no respect for me or the job I perform."

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I know that this is different, that Angel has done much good since those days, and that even Giles was willing to work with him again, but I just can't shake that feeling. For some reason, I also keep thinking of "Pangs," where Giles is saying to Angel that it isn't fair that he can see Buffy, but Buffy can't see him. Maybe it's because even after Jenny's death, his torture, and seeing what Angel(us) did to Buffy...he was still able to welcome Angel as an ally. For the fate of the world, surely, but I think he mostly did it for Buffy's sake. And then he gets killed by Angel in the end. Ugh.

For me, it now all depends on Buffy. If she can just be with Angel again like nothing happened, it will ruin the character of Buffy and the entire series for me. If that's how this is headed, well...she hasn't learned a thing since Season 1, and that would be the most upsetting thing of all.

SpaceLord agrees: I see your point but on the show I don't think he was ever held accountable for his actions

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True... I don't either. That's part of why I hate Angel so much. But how does him not being held accountable for his actions on the show mean that doing the same thing here in the comics as they did the show means he is a different character and they've destroyed his character. They didn't destroy him... they just kept him the same.

Jeez is there anyone who actually likes Angel.....he killed Drogyn because he flipped when Fred died and swore to make his stand. He thought he was going to die, it was part of his plan to bring down wolfram and hart and prove that good could make a big impact. He realised that it wasnt a big picture thing he actually said 'if nothing we do matters all that matters is what we do'. Spikes more of a hero? dont make me laugh.

---------- Post added at 11:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:00 PM ----------

Angel put his life on the line for people he didnt know in practically every episode of Angel, how can you say he doesnt care if people die for the greater good. Its crap.

I think the whole gang needs a marathon of Hurts' "Wonderful Life"
"Don't let go, never give up it's such a wonderful life"
Cheesy, yes, but maybe a little hopebringer

He put his life on the line constantly to make amends. He had crushing guilt and it's all he could do.
I think he was a hero that made bad choices. A lot. The problem is now he has even more piles of bodies because of his actions. When is enough, enough? Heck, the only reason he's not in hell right now is because the first and worst Evil that there ever was wanted him here...or there.

theroyalgoat said:

He put his life on the line constantly to make amends. He had crushing guilt and it's all he could do.
I think he was a hero that made bad choices. A lot. The problem is now he has even more piles of bodies because of his actions. When is enough, enough? Heck, the only reason he's not in hell right now is because the first and worst Evil that there ever was wanted him here...or there.

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A bit OT but this is what I find so weird about the whole Angel-situation even pre-Twilight. First he's brought back from hell, presumably to do good, The First evil wants him dead because he's a threat and then all of a sudden Wolfram & Hart wants him alive because he's going to tip the scales to evil in the apocalypse, and this after they've tried to kill him for five seasons...enlighten me, have I missed/forgotten/misunderstood something?

(this isn't only for theroyalgoat but his post just made me think about this again)

behindthewheel said:

A bit OT but this is what I find so weird about the whole Angel-situation even pre-Twilight. First he's brought back from hell, presumably to do good, The First evil wants him dead because he's a threat and then all of a sudden Wolfram & Hart wants him alive because he's going to tip the scales to evil in the apocalypse, and this after they've tried to kill him for five seasons...enlighten me, have I missed/forgotten/misunderstood something?

(this isn't only for theroyalgoat but his post just made me think about this again)

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Well actually the first didn't want him dead, it wanted him to be its puppet and to start killing again, so he tried to kill himself so he couldn't hurt anyone. W&H want him on the side of evil since he's going to be a big player in the apocalypse. Angel's character is such a big thing to everyone because he can cause a lot of damage, mainly because he's manipulative, cunning, and ruthless, but he can't keep his morals consistently intact, this isn't the first time he slipped up and innocent people have died. Angel in season 1, was much more of a hero that Angel from season 5 can't touch him. Angel from season 5 is left as morally compromised murder, he sold out, he betrayed his friends, he may have wanted to get back at W&H but it doesn't make anything he did in his last stand any better. Lindsey's death just made it worse because it was more about vegenace than doing good. Doyle in season 1, warned Angel specifically about seeing people as numbers, by the end of season 5 he did that. Doyle also warned him how he needed connections to humanity or he'd become a monster, which can be seen in ATS. Twilight is just going off of developements of ATS, although not all of them postive. Joss was true to Angel's character though, he just put his worst qualities out there, but it had to be Angel that was Twilight, it fits his personality, and he's the one who could get Buffy to betray herself, he's her archilles heel.

The whole First thing in the third season really bothered me. It really doesn't make any sense. Even if the First thought it could manipulate him it really didn't try all that hard to do it. It was obviously done to bring him back for the spin off, but I think I expect a lot more story wise from such creative and intellegent people. It really takes all the sting out of the second half of season two for me. And I'm all about the sting, I remeber being so excited to talk to people about it when Buffy put the sword in his heart, it was so heart-breaking and then six months later he's back and they're dating again. Bleh.

theroyalgoat said:

Heck, the only reason he's not in hell right now is because the first and worst Evil that there ever was wanted him here...or there.

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That's debatable. Some believe it was the PTB that brought Angel back, others believe it was Jasmine.

You guys do know the definition of "tragic hero" don't know? (Although tvtropes.org classifies him as an Atoner) Doesn't mean you have to like it of course. Although Angel's actions in s8 are much worse than anything he does in his souled (un)life.

I hate Spike/Angel comparisons. They are completely different characters.

I think he really means everything he says and desperately tries, but all he's caused is destruction. He's been a far more effective tool for evil than he's been a hero. I don't doubt his intentions, and I really do like him, out of all of Buffy's men, he's my favorite...but Giles is just the most recent on a HUGE list.
I don't know, for me personally this is it. Scott whateverhisnameis says that what's next for Angel is a path of redemtion, but I'm not interested anymore. He had five years on Angel for that and ended up sacraficing people for the appereant greater good...but really how much damage did he end up doing? They took out a fewer higher ups in a Secret Society, but didn't even touch Wolfram and Hart. And now he's caused the death of how many other's because yet another evil thing has influenced him? It's not good enough for me anymore. Good intentions are great, but there really comes a time when you say that'll do pig and stop trying to help. He's only made things worse time and time again.

VisionGirl said:

You guys do know the definition of "tragic hero" don't know?

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That's supposed to say "don't you?" instead of "don't know?" 😀

citiegal17 said:

Well actually the first didn't want him dead, it wanted him to be its puppet and to start killing again, so he tried to kill himself so he couldn't hurt anyone. W&H want him on the side of evil since he's going to be a big player in the apocalypse. Angel's character is such a big thing to everyone because he can cause a lot of damage, mainly because he's manipulative, cunning, and ruthless, but he can't keep his morals consistently intact, this isn't the first time he slipped up and innocent people have died. Angel in season 1, was much more of a hero that Angel from season 5 can't touch him. Angel from season 5 is left as morally compromised murder, he sold out, he betrayed his friends, he may have wanted to get back at W&H but it doesn't make anything he did in his last stand any better. Lindsey's death just made it worse because it was more about vegenace than doing good. Doyle in season 1, warned Angel specifically about seeing people as numbers, by the end of season 5 he did that. Doyle also warned him how he needed connections to humanity or he'd become a monster, which can be seen in ATS. Twilight is just going off of developements of ATS, although not all of them postive. Joss was true to Angel's character though, he just put his worst qualities out there, but it had to be Angel that was Twilight, it fits his personality, and he's the one who could get Buffy to betray herself, he's her archilles heel.

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The PTB still claim him to be their champion in ATS so how does it go from there (and W&H trying to kill him) to him being the one tipping the scales to evil and W&H wanting him alive? what I recall that jump hasn't really been explained.
Then you can argue about his choices all you want but that's not what interest me the most, because everybody looks at them differently, but I'm interested in knowing how and why that turn in "purpose" was taken?

I am just shocked and saddened by Giles death. And when Angel snapped his neck, I thought of Ms.Calendar's death by Angel. I am just so sad about Giles. RIP Rupert Giles you will be forever missed.

behindthewheel said:

The PTB still claim him to be their champion in ATS so how does it go from there (and W&H trying to kill him) to him being the one tipping the scales to evil and W&H wanting him alive? what I recall that jump hasn't really been explained.
Then you can argue about his choices all you want but that's not what interest me the most, because everybody looks at them differently, but I'm interested in knowing how and why that turn in "purpose" was taken?

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The PTB still claim his as their champion, but their not white hats, their compromising as well. W&H want him alive because he useful to them, if they wanted him dead they probably would have killed him already. The turn in purpose is precisley because of how Angel grew more compromising over time, and he has a history of the greater good with a trail of bodies behind it. He harden his heart, much like Buffy has over time it came with the loss of people he cared about(Wesley,Doyle,Fred,Cordelia), as much as I can see, but everyone see's it differently so its really a matter of opinon.

Kean said:

"You have no idea what it's like to have done things I've done...and to care."

The fact that Angel has to live with the consequences of his actions is going to go a long way in the line of punishment. It won't be it all, I suspect some Scoobies will want his blood, but it will be the one that causes him the most distress, pain and anguish.

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The one thing S8 has accomplished more than anything is to make me react to the line you quoted with "...yeah, whatever, you git." Words come a dime a dozen, especially to a notorious liar as the bad-hair dude. As if he ever gave a damn about the pain he caused. All he ever cared about was himself and being denied the chance Darla gave him - to let out his frustration with impunity. Guy just hates the world, and it shows... again, and again, and again, no matter what name he chooses to go by today. Contrary to what Whistler hoped for, trying to get into a jailbait cheerleader's pants does not a champion make.

Make no mistake - it's all due to this pile of acid-shot fanfic that sadly, but undeniably, got rated as official canon. Didn't hate the guy before, do now. Didn't doubt the S2 "a soul and a Latin syllable make all the difference" plot before, think it's pointless B.S. since the Twilight arc. Disliked the ship you're flying the flag of before, now wanting to puke at the very thought of it and, if I ever even want to watch the show in its entirety again (right now, I doubt I would), will at the very least feel massively urged to FFW over all the screen time wasted on those two together in S1-3. Yes, peeps, I've definitely watched "Amends" for the last time, ever. Go me. What a waste of time. Make us hope for a well-deserved sunbath, and then it snows in Southern California. Who's writing this ****? BLERGH.

(Guess what? S6 has just become by far my favorite season, not only, but definitely in a sizeable part for the reason that we were spared that disgustingly arrogant character played by Boreanaz on screen, and finally went through a year with - almost, yeah that phonecall/time away blah - no trace of his meaningless, crappy romance with the title character. If I want "twu luv = airhead bimbo obsesses over badly disturbed egotistical vampire", I'll read Twilight, TYVM. Meyer is probably better written than late-Whedon, anyways.)

No offense to you personally, Kean - but after S8, I can't fathom for the life of me why anyone would even want to ship Buffy/this guy anymore... let alone actually keep doing it. The mere thought of this pairing has become so disgusting to me that I want to take a shower. Even a Buffy/Dawn/Joyce lesbo threesome sounds healthy in comparison.

What a Stupid. Selfish. Psychotic. :censored:. Only 'ship I can stand to see him in anymore is a fanfic slashing him with Mr. Pointy... clearly rated X because, yes, there will be penetration. Everyone in the verse - and that included such Darkside notables as Dru or Darla - clearly deserves better than him.

Hint of a continuation of that so-called "forever love" (yeah, right... as if such an emotionally crippled washup even knew what love is, lol), and I'm so thoroughly out of the fandom that not even Aly H. and Amy A. could lure me back. Seriously. Whedon - who used to be a genius, just look at Firefly, for gawd's sake! - is definitely losing his mojo lately, by the bucket... and if he tries to sell me that drivel ever again, he can stick it where the sun doesn't shine, Claddagh ring and all.

You know, actually, the idea of a new, non-Whedon Buffy movie never sounded as good as it does today.

Yes I'm fuming. Not at you, Kean. At the bloody idiots ruining a show I used to like, a lot, by continuing it on four-colored toilet paper.

InsaneMystic said:

Yes I'm fuming. Not at you, Kean. At the bloody idiots ruining a show I used to like, a lot, by continuing it on four-colored toilet paper.

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(If you're fuming now, you'd better order blood pressure medicine before Season 9 begins, because I'm afraid you're gonna need it. I'm already stockpiling mine in anticipation,)

As much as I used to like Angel (as long as he stayed away from Spike's Slayer girlfriend, at least) I have to agree that, this time, he's gone way too far over the line for a simple, "I know that I've done wrong, and I'm suffering the tortures of the damned for it." to clear the slates anymore. No other big bad has caused even a tenth of the death, destruction, and chaos that Angel has this season, and we're supposed to believe that he did it with only the best of intentions (and remember, unlike any otherwise "good" character throughout both series, he was willingly recruited by Twilight, not tricked or forced into its service, therefore the "Twilight did it all, not me" defense is totally invalid) Well, they say that the road to hell is built on good intentions. I say that it's time for Angel to take that road straight to where it leads him.

Dude likes Barry Manilow; if that's not a harbinger of doom I don't know what is.