Episode Discussion Discussion of 8.39 "Last Gleaming Part 4" - Released 11/01/10 (Dark Horse) #2

[Moscow Watcher]

InsaneMystic - I hear you, but I disagree with your post. It has nothing to do with shipping - I'm a Spuffy. But I see the situation with Angel differently.

I have a long post on Angel on my LJ and I copy-paste the part the most essential to this discussion where I explain how I see it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Twilight - a "brave new world" that wants to be born, needs two superpowered entities to create it by having super-sex. It looks for the candidates and it, apparently, finds them in Buffy and Angel. Twilight knows it can't convince Buffy - so it tries to manipulate Angel into working for it.

So, pre-season 8, Angel comes back to our times from the post-apocalyptic future. He saw the things to come and he knows that the Earth is doomed all the people he cares about will die. ("Once they're gone, you'll understand"). He is offered a chance to fix it at the cost of many lives. The entity who makes the offer is very powerful. There is a chance to save the Earth. Doing morally dubious stuff to save the world? In character for Angel.

Twilight, manifesting itself through people and animals, assures Angel that to save Buffy and the world he has to de-power her. Only de-powerment can lead to further empowerment - and starting the new step of the evolution. Twilight keeps the mechanism of the empowerment vague: Angel definitely doesn't know that space-frak is the necessary factor; he definitely doesn't know that the fallout is the death of the old world.

Angel doesn't like the plan. He has a conversation with Whistler who confirms it's the only way to save the day. Now, we don't know if this is the real Whistler, or Twilight!Whistler. We don't have any indication -- but if it was real Whistler, he could be telling the truth. And Angel's actions *did* contribute to avoiding the apocalypse. At a terrible price, but still.

Maybe the alternative was even worse? For example, Angel refuses to follow Twilight's plan; Twilight chooses Roden and Gigi; they give birth to Twilight and provide it with the Seed. Nobody can beat them, because they're Gods. Result: Earth dies.

It's interesting that the events in №34-38 created the impression that the Earth was destroyed. Yet in #39 we find out that the Earth is mostly okay. At least the tourist business in Venice thrives as usual. So, maybe the only way to save the Earth was to make Buffy and Angel Twilight's parents? Connor was the only person who could destroy Jasmine; similarly, Buffy may be the only person who could destroy Twilight.

 

[VisionGirl]

Angel doesn't like the plan. He has a conversation with Whistler who confirms it's the only way to save the day. Now, we don't know if this is the real Whistler, or Twilight!Whistler. We don't have any indication -- but if it was real Whistler, he could be telling the truth. And Angel's actions *did* contribute to avoiding the apocalypse. At a terrible price, but still.

Maybe the alternative was even worse? For example, Angel refuses to follow Twilight's plan; Twilight chooses Roden and Gigi; they give birth to Twilight and provide it with the Seed. Nobody can beat them, because they're Gods. Result: Earth dies.

Moscow, your posts are always refreshing & different, thank you.

I'm still undecided on Whistler. I'm falling on the side that it was TwiWhistler, but then where were the PTB in this whole thing? Unfortunately, we might not know in the near future since it's possible that any connections with the PTB may be severed. Not that the PTB were always completely trustworthy to begin with.

Your alternative? Honestly some might have preferred to have seen Buffy & the gang fight Roden & Gigi. I don't think your conclusion (that they win & earth dies) is set in stone at all. Still, Scott Allie says that this season was about self-betrayal, which wouldn't have fit in with that scenario, and the writers had to find some way to affect the Slayer line so that it dies out before Fray's time. So, here we are.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

VisionGirl
I'm still undecided on Whistler. I'm falling on the side that it was TwiWhistler, but then where were the PTB in this whole thing? Unfortunately, we might not know in the near future since it's possible that any connections with the PTB may be severed. Not that the PTB were always completely trustworthy to begin with.

Yes, we don't know anything for sure, alas. I hope that Angel series will give us more explanations. My dream scenario of Angel series in season 9 is about Angel trying to find a way to get Giles back and finding more about Twilight's manipulations.

Your alternative? Honestly some might have preferred to have seen Buffy & the gang fight Roden & Gigi. I don't think your conclusion (that they win & earth dies) is set in stone at all.

I mention it just as a possibility. Maybe I used a wrong tense? I have a lot of gaps in my English 🙁

Still, Scott Allie says that this season was about self-betrayal, which wouldn't have fit in with that scenario, and the writers had to find some way to affect the Slayer line so that it dies out before Fray's time.

It's tricky. To me, Buffy's self-betrayal happened off-screen, when she has robbed a bank. The whole Twilight arc? Not her fault. The same Scott Allie said that Buffy and Angel were drugged. It's obvious to me that were it not the glow, Buffy wouldn't agree to have sex with Angel; she'd knocked him off, tied him up and did a third degree interrogation; and then she'd have all the information and they'd found a way out of that mess.

Yet, Allie thinks that Buffy betrayed herself in the course of the season. *shrugs* There are many things I disagree with him.

 

[VisionGirl]

I mention it just as a possibility. Maybe I used a wrong tense? I have a lot of gaps in my English 🙁

Oh, I think your verb tenses were fine. 🙂 I just think some readers might actually prefer that scenario to what we have now.

It's tricky. To me, Buffy's self-betrayal happened off-screen, when she has robbed a bank. The whole Twilight arc? Not her fault. The same Scott Allie said that Buffy and Angel were drugged. It's obvious to me that were it not the glow, Buffy wouldn't agree to have sex with Angel; she'd knocked him off, tied him up and did a third degree interrogation; and then she'd have all the information and they'd found a way out of that mess.

Yet, Allie thinks that Buffy betrayed herself in the course of the season. *shrugs* There are many things I disagree with him.

I think that act (robbing the bank) sure was part of the self-betrayal, a symptom maybe. I think Buffy is lost this season. Unsure of her purpose, unsure of her leadership, unsure about this whole thing that she & Willow started. She's missing important people in her life &, as per usual, feels disconnected. The Slayers are being hunted by the government & other enemies, and considered pariahs by the general population thanks to Harmony. The castle is destroyed, they're forced to give up their powers temporarily. She has always had a weak spot when it comes to Angel, & when he offers her this ultimate connection, yeah in her "drugged" state she went for it. I'm not sure any of us in her state would've done differently.

 

[white avenger]

I'm still undecided on Whistler. I'm falling on the side that it was TwiWhistler, but then where were the PTB in this whole thing? Unfortunately, we might not know in the near future since it's possible that any connections with the PTB may be severed. Not that the PTB were always completely trustworthy to begin with.

Well, here's another possibility for you. What if what has been referred to as the Powers That Be and Twilight (and possibly the Senior Partners too, for that matter) are actually either one and the same being or are allies with a long term plan to destroy this universe and set up their own in its place. Is it such a stretch of the imagination to imagine that Angel has been manipulated from the very moment of his siring, and possibly Darla as well, since she was sired by the Master, who we now know has been the Guardian of the Seed for all of these centuries? The Powers, in the guise of Whistler, dragged Angel out of that alley, washed the rat blood off of his hands, and showed him the sweet, innocent vision of loveliness that was the new Slayer and planted the idea in his head that she needed him to help her fulfill her duties.

(No, Bangels, I'm not trying to say that Angel falling in love with Buffy was some sort of manipulation, so just calm down)

Every bit of Angel's existence, even the Gypsies' curse with its "moment of true happiness" clause, could very well have been orchestrated by the Powers, the First Evil, the Senior Partners, or Twilight, any or all, to get him to the exact point that we see in Season 8, when he and Buffy reach, or are manipulated into, a point where they become literally superhuman, which would almost certainly be a prerequisite for the universe-forming sexcapades that they participated in.

This whole thing, from Season 1, episode 1 of "Buffy" up to the present, could very well be the conspiracy that makes that DeVinci thing look like a tale told by a six-year-old to his baby brother.

 

[Taake]

This whole thing, from Season 1, episode 1 of "Buffy" up to the present, could very well be the conspiracy that makes that DeVinci thing look like a tale told by a six-year-old to his baby brother.

Okay, A. Lol at the last line! and B. The fact that this is entirely plausible is making me feel very very tired...

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Well, here's another possibility for you. What if what has been referred to as the Powers That Be and Twilight (and possibly the Senior Partners too, for that matter) are actually either one and the same being or are allies with a long term plan to destroy this universe and set up their own in its place.

Well, given that Powers That Be and Senior Partners clearly were nobody else but the writers excelling in creative torture, your theory makes a lot of sense.

Seriously, I think that Joss can easily retcon Angel and Whistler's first encounter as Twilight finally finding an appropriate slayer (a newly-initiated Buffy) and sending an appropriate vampire to her to make them fall in love.

I'm really, really curious if season 9 will delve into that situaton.

 

[VisionGirl]

Oh WA, that makes my head hurt! Indulge me in how Jasmine fits into your fantasy?

 

[Daniel Osbourne]

Merry Christmas, Buffy-fans. Those of you who still like this series, that is. {g} I've decided to not abstain from the forum like I said I would, because now I can at least offer my two cents' worth on the present issues.

First off, Angel can be redeemed. Anyone can be redeemed. If you don't believe that, then you missed one of the important lessons of the show.

Yes, this is definitely the worst thing Angel has ever done. Ever. He orchestrated the slaughtering of 206 teenage girls. And IMO it all lies in his propensity to believe in destiny and prophecy. If there's one thing he should have learned from Buffy it's that prophecies are tricky creatures. They don't tell you everything.

Twilight - a "brave new world" that wants to be born, needs two superpowered entities to create it by having super-sex. It looks for the candidates and it, apparently, finds them in Buffy and Angel. Twilight knows it can't convince Buffy - so it tries to manipulate Angel into working for it.

So, pre-season 8, Angel comes back to our times from the post-apocalyptic future. He saw the things to come and he knows that the Earth is doomed all the people he cares about will die. ("Once they're gone, you'll understand"). He is offered a chance to fix it at the cost of many lives. The entity who makes the offer is very powerful. There is a chance to save the Earth. Doing morally dubious stuff to save the world? In character for Angel.

Twilight, manifesting itself through people and animals, assures Angel that to save Buffy and the world he has to de-power her. Only de-powerment can lead to further empowerment - and starting the new step of the evolution. Twilight keeps the mechanism of the empowerment vague: Angel definitely doesn't know that space-frak is the necessary factor; he definitely doesn't know that the fallout is the death of the old world.

Angel doesn't like the plan. He has a conversation with Whistler who confirms it's the only way to save the day. Now, we don't know if this is the real Whistler, or Twilight!Whistler. We don't have any indication -- but if it was real Whistler, he could be telling the truth. And Angel's actions *did* contribute to avoiding the apocalypse. At a terrible price, but still.

Maybe the alternative was even worse? For example, Angel refuses to follow Twilight's plan; Twilight chooses Roden and Gigi; they give birth to Twilight and provide it with the Seed. Nobody can beat them, because they're Gods. Result: Earth dies.

It's interesting that the events in №34-38 created the impression that the Earth was destroyed. Yet in #39 we find out that the Earth is mostly okay. At least the tourist business in Venice thrives as usual. So, maybe the only way to save the Earth was to make Buffy and Angel Twilight's parents? Connor was the only person who could destroy Jasmine; similarly, Buffy may be the only person who could destroy Twilight.

This is what I think a lot of people are missing: Twilight was going to happen from the moment that Willow activated the Slayers in Chosen. In a way - many ways - it's actually lucky that Buffy was one of its parents, because she will always do the right thing over the easy thing. She turned her back on bliss with Angel because that's who she is. Always the hero. Never the puppet. And Angel, in so many ways, has always been the puppet. That doesn't make him less of a character. It makes him a tragic figure. He wants to do good but ultimately he goes about it the wrong way because he can't accept that there is anything but destiny.

For the record, I don't think Angel would have done the things he does in Last Gleaming were it not for the Twi-glow. It's clear from his shock in Twilight #4 that he didn't know that the world was going to end the way it was going to. Not that it excuses him from killing 206 teenage girls, but at least his intentions were honorable.

By the way, why is everyone dead-set convinced that Buffy is instantly going to forgive Angel for everything? She blames herself, clearly, and Angel bears more of the blame than she does. Let's read Season 9 before we judge the character's future actions, shall we?

Oh, and the bashing is getting absolutely ridiculous. Season 8 doesn't ruin the Buffy/Angel relationship as it was beforehand. That makes no sense. All those people who are considering abandoning the show just because they don't like how the plot and characters developed later need to step back and reevaluate whether Season 8 "ruins" anything.

 

[Icarium]

This is what I think a lot of people are missing: Twilight was going to happen from the moment that Willow activated the Slayers in Chosen.

We don't know that for sure. There was some mumbo-jumbo how only Buffy and Angel could create Twilight, so if one of them had bothered to use a few braincells all this could have been avoided. Then again, it's hard to make heads or tails of a story about how unborn freaking universe tricks people into having sex in order for it to be born.

 

[citiegal17]

We don't know that for sure. There was some mumbo-jumbo how only Buffy and Angel could create Twilight, so if one of them had bothered to use a few braincells all this could have been avoided. Then again, it's hard to make heads or tails of a story about how unborn freaking universe tricks people into having sex in order for it to be born.

Well there is Jasmine remeber, she wasn't a universe but basically same type of story, Angel just plays Connor role this time as Jasmine bitch(well Twilight's bitch), he got tricked like Wesley was in season 3, except no one has tried to suffocate him with a pillow then tried to treat him like a pariah like Wesley was treated(I'm not sure how its that different other than Wesley wasn't committing mass murder), Buffy played Cordelia's part in the birth process, Angel used all of Jasmine's excuses but of course with Jasmine he stood for something in Peace Out, then stood for nothing in Home. The lesser of Two Evils, will always be Evil, in the end its like Willow said about losing, they lost something worth fighting for, and I'm not talking about just magic or Willow(the slayer line, freedom all the magic beings used to have, the right to rise above mediocrity(X-Men 3 anyone), Jasmine was a tryant, who was all for the greater good(Angel), she murdered thousands(Angel again), and she oppressed the world(took free will), and of course posssession(Angel gets to be Cordelia's role too), Buffy let herself down, and saved the world(so i will give her credit for it, but what she created as a result is an oppressive world). Also don't get me wrong I still feel sorry for Buffy, and I still like her character.

 

[king ruckus]

I am just shocked and saddened by Giles death. And when Angel snapped his neck, I thought of Ms.Calendar's death by Angel. I am just so sad about Giles. RIP Rupert Giles you will be forever missed.

Couldn't agree with you more, especially on that Jenny Calendar flashback. The very first thing I thought was "He went out just like Ms. Calendar". I basically signed up here just to vent about it.

I've been a fan of BTVS since the beginning. I always felt Giles was a character that had character. He was highly resourceful(with the exception of computers😛), and able to take care of himself physically to an extent. While he sacrificed himself for the greater good as Giles would absolutely do, I just wish he had went out with more of a fight.

I wonder how Willow will get her power back? If the future is really going to happen, she'll have to somehow.

 

[Abby27]

As a Giles-lover, I'm really upset with his death here. After all the weirdness of Season 8 and it ends with Angel killing Giles? It just makes me wish that they staked Angel upon his return in Season 3. I just keep picturing Giles talking to Buffy in "Revelations" when she thanks him for sticking up for her when the gang is upset with her hiding Angel's return:

I know that this is different, that Angel has done much good since those days, and that even Giles was willing to work with him again, but I just can't shake that feeling. For some reason, I also keep thinking of "Pangs," where Giles is saying to Angel that it isn't fair that he can see Buffy, but Buffy can't see him. Maybe it's because even after Jenny's death, his torture, and seeing what Angel(us) did to Buffy...he was still able to welcome Angel as an ally. For the fate of the world, surely, but I think he mostly did it for Buffy's sake. And then he gets killed by Angel in the end. Ugh.

For me, it now all depends on Buffy. If she can just be with Angel again like nothing happened, it will ruin the character of Buffy and the entire series for me. If that's how this is headed, well...she hasn't learned a thing since Season 1, and that would be the most upsetting thing of all.

I completely agree. It is the biggest slap in the face to have Angel kill Giles. I mean there have been other people in the show that haven't trusted Angel, but Giles was the only one besides Buffy to have been actively betrayed by him. And in a way, I almost like that he killed him by snapping his neck. Not that I wanted Giles killed at all, he is my favorite character! But it mirrors Jenny's death as you said and I think that'll ring with Buffy, Xander, Willow, and with the fans reading. It's little things like that that barely convince me that Joss is involved with all this.

Also, I think it's obvious that Giles' death is causing a lot of controversy, more so than other deaths. It think the fact that it was done in the comic, a media that some fans refuse to believe as canon, is partly responsible, as is the fact that it was done by Angel. But, Giles is the FIRST one of the core four to die. I mean, who remembers when Giles, Buffy, Willow, and Xander were talking at the end of "The Harvest" and then the nod to it towards the end of "Chosen." This death is a big deal. While Giles hasn't been as involved in the main arcs in season 8 the way Xander, Willow, and Buffy have been, he's still part of that core four.

 

[white avenger]

I began to lose affection for Giles in Season 6, when he left Buffy, who was quite obviously emotionally unbalanced, then when he tried to have Spike killed in Season 7, and he hit rock bottom in ATS Season 5 when he refused to even contact Willow when Fred was dying. Just the same, he meant a the world to Buffy, and was the substitute for the father she has basically lost. I don't see how Buffy will possibly be able to forgive Angel for killing him, or see his death as being in any way her fault, let alone absolve Angel of all blame in the matter, but I have no doubt whatsoever that she is going to do it.

 

[Sommers Summers]

Well there is Jasmine remeber, she wasn't a universe but basically same type of story, Angel just plays Connor role this time as Jasmine bitch (well Twilight's bitch), he got tricked like Wesley was in season 3, except no one has tried to suffocate him with a pillow then tried to treat him like a pariah like Wesley was treated (I'm not sure how its that different other than Wesley wasn't committing mass murder).

Angel, you're a douche. No wonder the Brits hate the Irish. Even today, especially since they've gotta bail out Ireland now.

Couldn't agree with you more, especially on that Jenny Calendar flashback. The very first thing I thought was "He went out just like Ms. Calendar". I basically signed up here just to vent about it.

I've been a fan of BTVS since the beginning. I always felt Giles was a character that had character. He was highly resourceful(with the exception of computers😛), and able to take care of himself physically to an extent. While he sacrificed himself for the greater good as Giles would absolutely do, I just wish he had went out with more of a fight.

Apparently, it seems to me that Joss hates people with (recent) British ancestry [as opposed to long time Americans]. Giles, the motherland weeps for you. As well as her 16 dominions.

I wonder how Willow will get her power back? If the future is really going to happen, she'll have to somehow.

Perhaps it's a parallel universe.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Some thoughts on the issue:

Firstly, I loved this issue! So glad Willow and Kennedy are over. That was a travesty. *shudders*

A gulf had been opened between Willow and Buffy. Sad. The gang has broken up...

What do you all think about Willow's comment that magic is the "heart's of the universe? Do you agree?

"Come on, in rooting for Kennedy here! That deserves consideration." lol
Good 'ol Buffy.

"You're never not you, are you?" Love this, too.

So does Angel not rememeber what happened?

I love that Xander's robots are displayed in him and Dawn's kitchen. It's the details that make his universe so real.

So, if they illuminated magic from the world how do vampires and slayers still exist? Is it because they were made before? If so, would that mean that no new vampires or Slayers can be made?

Wow. Wow. Giles left his will to Faith, not Buffy? Ouch.

I like that Faith is giving back to Angel what he offered her so long ago: forgiveness.

Spike and Buffy hanging on the back steps. How fitting. God, I love them.

 

[Buffy Summers]

That was kind of shocking, but reminiscent of season 7 Giles...

 

[Stake fodder]

And thus, the finale of S8. I enjoyed reading all insightful comments on these threads. I'm not a comic reader usually, so not familiar with the style and rhythm of them. I am a book reader, so I raced through the season in a couple weeks, without stopping to savor the artwork and stories like I should have. (I'm too impatient for poetry for similar reasons.) Lastly, I only had the last half available to me from my library, and got the rest of the story from Internet summaries.

While I enjoyed the read, I never invested in it much. The story seemed too over-the-top, and while I found the characters generally seemed like themselves, I just found them kinda soulless without actors filling them out. Not having to worry about budget is a good and a bad thing, I guess. On the plus side, everything can be bigger and crazier, but on the negative, ...everything can be bigger and crazier. Still, it was fun to have more of Buffy and co., and I mainly wanted to know what others on the board were referencing, and now I do.

So this preface is just if anyone's still reading, to explain why I won't go on about the ending, and why my comments are always rather random things I've noticed. Others have written better analyses of the plots, anyway.

Even the Spangels get a shout-out with Buffy's reference to her dream of Angel and Spike kissing. Was any major shipping missed this season? I know the Waramys have been waiting a long time for some attention, lol.

Favorite line: Willow telling the Master, "You're the Master of nothing. You're the extra-light fluffy coating around the more substantial center of ordinary nothing." I can just hear Willow saying this in her "I'm outraged, but don't want to seem rude" style.

Angel kills the Master, and Warren becomes a puddle of bloody goo (which, gross and funny!). And Giles is killed. But hardly anyone ever stays dead in this series, though goodies do more than baddies. (RIP Tara and Joyce ...so far.) It becomes meaningless. I hear even the Scythe will be back. And I'm also sure that Angel and Bangel will come back from this, too.

Others commented on the vagina-dentata creature. Not sure where they were going with that, as it's usually emblematic of misogyny. But then, my biggest frustration with the Buffyverse is that it is mostly written and directed by men who sometimes talk feminism more than they depict it. So it's possible they didn't even see what they were drawing. When Spike chases the creature as it flees, I thought that was symbolic of his fruitless pursuit of Buffy, and love in general.

Finally, my one biggest complaint is a lack of "previously on...." Surely, I can't be the only one who missed some comics, hasn't read all of the myriad sub-series, or forgot things through the reading. One short catch-up paragraph at the beginning would be nice!

 

[Priceless]

@Stake fodder Are you going to read Angel & Faith Season 9? It's one of the best comic seasons. If your library has it, I'd highly recommend it.

 

[thetopher]

Was any major shipping missed this season?

And think most of the major ships (or just possible fan-ships) involving Buffy were definitely ended this season; some of them by implication and some of them with what seems almost like malice. Looking at what was to come its possible that it was planned that way.