31 Days of (Christmas) Spuffy

[Stoney]

It's definitely true that you can't be black and white about it but at the same time the verse if very consistent in still sticking to the perspective that soulless beings shouldn't be fully trusted and relied upon just in case they decide to turn on you. The group make alliances as needed/helpful, but they are always wary and are looking over their shoulders. I've no problems with that, it keeps a consistency to the importance of the soul and the distinction it makes whilst also not ruling out that sentient creatures can have complexity and are individual too. They did somewhat restrict themselves in how broadly they can apply only judging beings based on their actions by how important they made the distinction of the soul in both Spike's and Angel's stories, but it certainly doesn't rule out seeing and understanding the greys. 🙂

 

[Spuffy freak]

It's definitely true that you can't be black and white about it but at the same time the verse if very consistent in still sticking to the perspective that soulless beings shouldn't be fully trusted and relied upon just in case they decide to turn on you. The group make alliances as needed/helpful, but they are always wary and are looking over their shoulders. I've no problems with that, it keeps a consistency to the importance of the soul and the distinction it makes whilst also not ruling out that sentient creatures can have complexity and are individual too. They did somewhat restrict themselves in how broadly they can apply only judging beings based on their actions by how important they made the distinction of the soul in both Spike's and Angel's stories, but it certainly doesn't rule out seeing and understanding the greys. 🙂

The soulless being should not be trusted even soulless Spike but that does not mean they deserve to be treated the way Buffy was treating him, she was hurting him both physically and emotionally and she was supposed to be the good and ensouled one, for that, I blame the teachings of Watchers council and her judgemental friends because for them the non human creatures meant nothing and deserved nothing. After Joyce's death, Spike brought her flowers and Xander again insulted him the show had so many things going on below the surface like how we think of our selves superior just because someone else does not look or act exactly like us. Even soulless it did hurt him, is it okay to keep hurting a dangerous caged animal every day just because he is dangerous and can't be trusted? I am glad that creators have dealt with this issue in the comics. In s6 too the real villains were human and Buffy tried to save Warren he was more dangerous and more untrustworthy than soulless Spike, if he was not human would she try so hard to save him?

 

[GoSpuffy]

Day 5: Why does Buffy ask Spike if he loves her in As You Were, if she doesn't believe he can love? What are your thoughts on this scene?

Great question. I think I'm in the minority on this answer. I think Buffy wanted to hear Spike say it because she was falling in love and she wanted to justify her actions with words. She wasn't able to say it but she needed to hear it. There's a lot of talking about "using" like that's always a bad thing but you use a friend for a ride, you use a friend to help with your homework, you use your Watcher to defeat the big bad, you use your Wiccan friend for spells you need, you use the guy for bringing the donuts. Not all using is bad. There was a lot of using on both sides that was bringing comfort. Buffy was sad, her ex had moved on and she wanted to use Spike for tenderness. Despite all the bad at this point in S6, spike was also providing pretty much all the good using too because he was the only one Buffy truly felt connected too.

 

[Stoney]

The soulless being should not be trusted even soulless Spike but that does not mean they deserve to be treated the way Buffy was treating him, she was hurting him both physically and emotionally and she was supposed to be the good and ensouled one, for that, I blame the teachings of Watchers council and her judgemental friends because for them the non human creatures meant nothing and deserved nothing. After Joyce's death, Spike brought her flowers and Xander again insulted him the show had so many things going on below the surface like how we think of our selves superior just because someone else does not look or act exactly like us. Even soulless it did hurt him, is it okay to keep hurting a dangerous caged animal every day just because he is dangerous and can't be trusted? I am glad that creators have dealt with this issue in the comics. In s6 too the real villains were human and Buffy tried to save Warren he was more dangerous and more untrustworthy than soulless Spike, if he was not human would she try so hard to save him?

Yes of course, it reflects on ourselves how we treat other beings that can feel emotions and pain. Even if their emotions are limited they are nevertheless living breathing creatures that are not indifferent or unaffected by our actions towards them. The times when the demons/vamps are tortured is not done without the scope for whether that should be questioned as acceptable being raised, even when it is 'our' group doing it. But the actions of The Initiative also really brought a lot of this to the table too and it is right that it is questioned. I take Buffy's pov that it was killing her to behave as she was greatly about the questionable aspect of using Spike as she was.

The only difficulty with a straight real world swap in seeing demons as representative as 'others' is that there is that extent to which the group are correct to mistrust them and be wary of them. That shouldn't be applied in such a sweeping way to real world groups, not as it is. But as a general principle to question and to see the greys and how things can't be just treated as black and white it is good that the comics have continued to raise it and that we can see that Buffy is constantly developing and progressing in her world views. The ability to change and mature is what makes these characters' paths so great and relatable. 😀

I'm not sure what the answer is with vicious, cruel humans. In verse terms I mean. We are certainly capable of making awful choices and behaving in ways which are 'soulless'. You can fairly argue too that doing so with full emotional and moral capacities is worse. Obviously the perspective has always been that there are human laws and judicial procedures to deal with our human criminals, whereas the slayers are 'that' for the supernatural world. But I've always liked that the show brings human cruelty and savage behaviour up time and again too. The whole use of metaphors for our own inner weaknesses and faults runs through it all of course, but having some genuine 'bad guys' who are human in the mix as well is good.
 
@GoSpuffy I think the difference is, for me, that Buffy wasn't thinking of it from Spike's point of view in that moment and how using his emotional regard for her against him could hurt him. She didn't see him as 'real', as equal then, and so didn't acknowledge his emotions as mattering as much as her own. It was in being that callous directly and intentionally that she questions her actions more. And I do think that caring for him is mixed into seeing the wrong in what she was doing, definitely. That's why using his name, calling him William, is in part perhaps an acknowledgement of him as a person that shouldn't be treated the way she has been. So I agree with you that we use people in our relationships, but I don't think it is generally done regardless of whether it will hurt them, which is the difference here. For me anyway. 🙂

 

[flow]

Day 5: Why does Buffy ask Spike if he loves her in As You Were, if she doesn't believe he can love? What are your thoughts on this scene?

Thanks @Priceless, for asking this question. It has been on my mind as well and I haven`t come to a conclusion yet.

I have always felt and believed, that Buffy wanted to love Spike in season 6, although she couldn`t at that time. Maybe her own desire to be able to love her, led to this question. I am not sure, because, her tone isn`t in any way longing or soft or even understanding. It is harsh and demanding. But maybe she just acknowledges with that question - for the first time -, that he can love her. I don`t know. It is sad, to see the hopeful look on his face, when she asks him. Sad, because we know, what will happen shortly after.

flow

 

[TriBel]

Day 5: Why does Buffy ask Spike if he loves her in As You Were, if she doesn't believe he can love? What are your thoughts on this scene?

First, I don't think you can see this scene - or this episode in isolation. There's a reason Spike's speech in Touched replays Riley's speech in AYW. I also found it telling that the phrase As You Were is the logical response to his request to Lloyd in Grave "Make me what I was. So Buffy can get what she deserves". A vampire who has the potential to be a good man. It maybe he requires a soul to do that - it may just be that he needs a level playing field.

Second - she doesn't ask: she quietly demands or directs him to say it.

BUFFY: (quietly) Tell me you love me.
SPIKE: (surprised) I love you. You know I do.
BUFFY: Tell me you want me.
SPIKE: (whispers) I always want you. In point of fact-
BUFFY: Shut up.

Compare this with "Will you just hold me" in Touched (as I've argued before, the "will" is a deliberate choice). Here she IS asking - asking if he's willing - she's giving him agency. In AYW, he's still playing the "willing slave" so his opinions, his wants, carry no weight (Shut up). They do nothing to confirm her worth or alleviate her feelings of worthlessness. A slave acts out of fear of his life - not out of love or because he recognises the master's intrinsic value. Compare this to the Touched speech - he loves her for her inherent traits - her kindness and strength, the good (Buffy) and the bad (the Slayer). Xander in the Yellow Crayon speech loves both good and bad Willow. I wonder whether "No you don't" is Spike's recognition that she loves the man in him but hasn't learned to love his monster?

In effect - she's directing a play with clearly defined roles. When Riley arrives Spike - in a sense - acknowledges this: "I've gotta wager this little tableau must sting a bit, eh?" (NB - Spike is a tw*t sometimes and I really don't like her in this episode).

"Tell me you love me" is interesting because that's the response we anticipate when we say "I love you" but she isn't playing the game. It goes back to what I was saying about the difference between "In the Other" and "With the Other". With "want me" she's reducing his love to physical, sexual desire - this REALLY annoys me. She's giving him no option on how to express his love. Okay - he responds lasciviously BUT - is this because it's the only way he can express it or is it he only way she'll accept it. I'd want to compare this moment to Normal Again.

SPIKE: Here, let's get her back to my crypt.
XANDER: Spike, just go, okay? (Buffy looking confused) She's our friend, we'll take care of her.
BUFFY: No, guys, I'm okay. I'm okay.
WILLOW: Come on, Xander, help me get her home.
They lead her off. Spike watches them go.
SPIKE: (calls) Put a little ice on the back of her neck.
He turns away, picks up his bag of groceries.
SPIKE: (to himself) She likes that.

There's proof he can express his love in non-sexual ways. Why are we not shown this? Have I said how much I loath the Scoobies in S6?

She knows he loves her - but she's unwilling to accept it because what does it say about her? That the only "thing" who loves her is a "thing". We're in Buffy Bot territory. You can love a vase but the vase can't love you back. All a vase does is confirm your existence by virtue of the fact that you can see it and it's different from you. It doesn't look at you but it confirms your status as looking subject. Moreover, you can touch a vase but it can't touch you. All this changes in S7 (that's why I'm rambling). From Potentials onwards they touch each other. I'm fairly sure that when Riley interrupts them they're not touching.

For me, the key moment leading up to the scene is this.

"SAM: So, you seeing anyone new? Someone special?
BUFFY: You know, I just take my time, you know, I don't ... I don't wanna jump right into anything, don't wanna ... you know ... be defined by who I'm with". She IS seeing someone new and he is "special" in the sense of different BUT "defined by" is not simply a cliché. She's terrified her friends will "see" her and define her. As Tara says when the news of the relationship is revealed to Willow: "I think she was afraid of the look you'd get on your face. (Willow staring at her) Kinda like the one you're wearing now".

So - do I think she loves him - yes. Do I think she's willing to love him - no and I think it's that denial that's ripping her apart. She can't allow his love to be genuine because what does that say about human love? What does it say about her love for Angel (her "true" love and a vampire with a soul) if she can love one without a soul? She's hanging onto her sense of self by a thread

@Spuffy freak - Thanks for posting the page. I hadn't noticed it. You're right (IMO - for what it's worth) - what Buffy says is key. The anticipation is that a Slayer dies young - still with the naivety of youth - still ready to soak up the patriarchal crap feed to her by the Watcher's Council. I'm glad I saw this - this is the reason I don't think she'll end up with Angel if he becomes human. It's been the message of BtVS since 5/6 - I'd be surprised if they went back on it. PS - where's it from?

@Stoney - re: the other. I agree that the 'verse logic is that demons are not other but I still think there's a voice in the text that's not part of the 'verse and is subtly undermining the logic. A voice that's giving us a flawed hero - not because she's intrinsically flawed but because she's being perpetuating an ideology that work against her own interests. What Jordon (?) is reiterating is a hard-line ideology not a truth. My problem with the 'verse is, unless you allow for this voice, it's ridiculously reactionary. I agree there are actual demons but the truths about them - they can't be trusted, they'll turn on you etc. etc. and the idea they're subhuman, are the same truths that have been used to oppress minorities (race, sexuality and gender) throughout history. It's the same with the soul. I agree they "need" it but who says they need it? Here it's the church - that's hardly been a supporter of equal rights.

I'm rambling now - I'm tired!

 

[Spuffy freak]

@Spuffy freak - Thanks for posting the page. I hadn't noticed it. You're right (IMO - for what it's worth) - what Buffy says is key. The anticipation is that a Slayer dies young - still with the naivety of youth - still ready to soak up the patriarchal crap feed to her by the Watcher's Council. I'm glad I saw this - this is the reason I don't think she'll end up with Angel if he becomes human. It's been the message of BtVS since 5/6 - I'd be surprised if they went back on it. PS - where's it from?

it's from S11-Issue:3, I also only noticed it during my re-read and I am glad I did cuz their treatment with Spike stopped being funny long time ago and was just sad and very cruel. In s11 Buffy is on the supernatural beings side and she feels as bad when one of them dies as she feels when a human dies, that was not there on the show. I also believe that Buffy did love him but she did not want to because as a soulless vampire he was beneath her and her superior human friends, comics did pick up this and worked on it she literally went into Spike's head and saw everything evil he did while soulless but she still thinks there is enough good in him to not hold any of that against him and still loves him,maybe even more than before the trip to the memories so that does say they were not right in treating him the way they did I also despise scoobies in s6 and hate Giles in s7. I think he still owes Spike an apology

 

[Stoney]

@Stoney - re: the other. I agree that the 'verse logic is that demons are not other but I still think there's a voice in the text that's not part of the 'verse and is subtly undermining the logic. A voice that's giving us a flawed hero - not because she's intrinsically flawed but because she's being perpetuating an ideology that work against her own interests. What Jordon (?) is reiterating is a hard-line ideology not a truth. My problem with the 'verse is, unless you allow for this voice, it's ridiculously reactionary. I agree there are actual demons but the truths about them - they can't be trusted, they'll turn on you etc. etc. and the idea they're subhuman, are the same truths that have been used to oppress minorities (race, sexuality and gender) throughout history. It's the same with the soul. I agree they "need" it but who says they need it? Here it's the church - that's hardly been a supporter of equal rights.

I think it depends what they expect and want as to whether they 'need' a soul. If a demon wants to operate in a relationship with a human then yes, they need a soul. It brings an equality into the relationship that is needed on emotional/moral levels. Again, I really don't think that you can use the real life equivalent of oppressed minorities for the very reason that you raise, which was what I was trying to acknowledge too. The sweeping truths are assumptions, are judgements based on 'what' they are perceived to be rather than a response to the individual. And yes, that is the same 'truth' that has been used over centuries in the real world and that is why we shouldn't imo fall into the trap of trying to do a straight transposition of BtVS demons as 'others' because it is prejudice that the story repeatedly supports. Even if the greys are increasingly acknowledged. And that isn't incompatible within the verse, to have caution/fear/wariness despite seeing the greys. It is justified, reasonable and logical if you accept that, unlike asylum seekers/men/women/people of X religion in real life scenarios, BtVS demons are not humans, they are intrinsically different in a meaningful way that isn't true to oppressed groups in real life. The verse supports time and time again that some degree of distrust is a correct sweeping judgement to hold. It isn't that they will turn on you, but you need to be cautious in case they do. It is the inherent nature aspect of demons in the verse that stops it being something you can scan back on real life fully, you can't escape that the prejudice isn't without reason. It isn't okay to be prejudiced against a group in real life, and yet it is the safe and reasonable choice in BtVS.

They could change this, it could develop further, but I doubt very much that it will. Mostly because it would disrupt the distinction that is meaningful and important in two major characters' arcs. Understand the greys that they walk in and where/how they struggle, but they feel the distinction of the soul and as the only two characters that have been through both states, they both consistently support how much it matters. So understanding the greys becomes that demons aren't always unreliable, that they should be afforded the chance to make the choice to rub along together passably, rather than being staked in preemptive defence. But still, beware! Spike's story specifically explored that there was a limitation to what could be achieved soulless. Despite being motivated by and for love he could still let himself down horrifically because of an inherent limitation, one that is bridged with a soul. And outside of Spike and Angel's stories, the vamps/demons that we get to know specifically all back up the importance of caution, of keeping an uncertain eye on them. Drac, Harmony, Vicki, D'Hoffryn have all turned on the group despite playing along at other points. As much as it also shows us the development of understanding the greys too, it is the story that tells us the soul matters repeatedly. And as I say, importantly, through the mouths of those that have experienced it rather than an ill-informed patriarchal system dictating party lines from afar.

So it depends on what they are wanting as to whether they 'need' a soul. But rather than just hear from the characters, through consistency on the matter, the verse shows us that they do to be equal rather than just hearing different parties tell us that. I agree that the text raises the subject and we can see and consider it against real life and where/how the characters get it wrong (which they do on and off through the series), but whilst it isn't black and white for sure, it is still there. That's why demons in verse can't ever truly represent oppressed minorities imo, the prejudice is repeatedly justified and it's sensible to not fully let go of it.

 

[Priceless]

Does anyone have a question they'd like to put before the group? I feel like I've been dominating, so I'll try and restrain myself 😀😳🙄

 

[Spuffy freak]

@Priceless I really want you to answer your question about the AYW scene
I have a question regarding the episode "Gone" we don't talk much about that episode so it makes me think if I just read too much into that episode that was never there? So anyways the question is:
Day 5: Why did Buffy after getting the invisibility power and getting the job done with the social worker went straight to Spike and spent the whole day there that he had to throw her out and she didn't want to go, with that power she could go anywhere, do anything so why spend the whole day doing Spike😛?

 

[Priceless]

@Priceless I really want you to answer your question about the AYW scene

I'm one of those people who think Buffy did love Spike in S6, she just couldn't say it out loud. She is incredibly dependent on him for all her emotional needs. She doesn't go to her friends or her sister or Giles and say 'tell me I'm a good person, tell me I'm worthy, tell me you love me'. She goes to Spike, which makes me think that even though she may say she doesn't believe him, she puts value on the fact that he says it and that he believes it, she doesn't completely dismiss him.
 
Day 5: Why did Buffy after getting the invisibility power and getting the job done with the social worker went straight to Spike and spent the whole day there that he had to throw her out and she didn't want to go, with that power she could go anywhere, do anything so why spend the whole day doing Spike😛?

Well if I had a whole day to do exactly what I wanted, I might want to spend it with Spike 😀 The invisibility gave Buffy a sense of freedom she hadn't had before. She could be with Spike and both practically and metaphorically, not worry about who would see her. It must have felt like all that baggage she was carrying around was lifted from her shoulders, she feels that she can do anything she wants without any consequences.

Spike even comments on how much Buffy is enjoying her invisibility and is mad with her because he equates Buffy not wanting to be seen with death. Now this does seem a bit of a reach, but I think that's because it's Spikes greatest fear, that Buffy will die again and he couldn't bear the loss. He's being vulnerable and honest with her. He's also mad because although she's the invisible one, she's keeping him invisible from the world, which can only hurt both of them in the long run.

Buffy is depressed, yes, but she isn't unhappy in this episode, she'd defeated the social worker, she can keep Dawn, things are looking up for her and she wants to keep being happy so she goes to Spike because he's part of what makes her happy.

 

[TriBel]

She doesn't go to her friends or her sister or Giles and say 'tell me I'm a good person, tell me I'm worthy,

I wonder how much this has to do with it: "And I can fool Giles, and I can fool my friends, but I can't fool myself. Or Spike, for some reason". (Lovers Walk). Also - "Spike: I can't fight them both alone and neither can you. Buffy: (punching him) I hate you! Spike: And I'm all you've got" (Becoming). I don't mean at a simplistic level - I suppose I mean a) that - by her own earlier admittance - and b) the reliance Giles identified in S7 starts much earlier?

Day 5: Why did Buffy after getting the invisibility power and getting the job done with the social worker went straight to Spike and spent the whole day there that he had to throw her out and she didn't want to go, with that power she could go anywhere, do anything so why spend the whole day doing Spike😛

I don't think being with Spike and dealing with the Social Worker are separate issues. I think both incidents stem from the same cause - "the gaze". It's a complex concept and I'm reducing it. Basically, "the gaze" is an "unconscious feeling" we have that someone is watching us and this feeling determines how we behave - it's a form of conditioning. If we do something that's socially unacceptable we feel ashamed - irrespective of whether there's anyone watching us. Sometimes we can avoid the gaze in private (so people might, for instance, put their finger in their nose in the car but not in a work situation) but often we don't. This is because the gaze is also tied into to concepts of self and identity (who we think we are and how other people label us). So - she's caught up in the SW's gaze (it's an institutionalised gaze - not the individual's gaze). We know Buffy is doing her best by Dawn - we know Spike isn't her "boyfriend". However, it doesn't look that way to the SW. The SW will assess her by a) what she sees and b) what the institution has decided is correct and proper (the institutionalised gaze). There are lots of different theories about the gaze - TBH, I've mixed them all in together. 🙄

IMO, the fact that she goes to Spike is telling. She goes to Spike because she can indulge herself to the limits without feeling ashamed (she's escaped the gaze by being invisible). This tells me it's social convention that's keeping her away from him not a lack of feeling. Personally, I think she's being cruel (and I think the gaze can stop us from being cruel). She's cruel to the social worker who was doing her job and had Dawn's best interests at heart. The traffic warden was also doing his job and what right does she have to decide who wears what? I think she was particularly cruel to Spike - she made him look foolish in front of Xander. However, this also suggests - to me - that she unconsciously WANTS Xander to know because ultimately it would be easier for her. It takes the pressure off by allowing her to be with Spike AND might mean her friends never speak to her again (she's already said her concern about them is tiring). Also - it might give her a reason for giving up on the Slayer role. It's a bit like suicide but at a symbolic level not a real one.

The other thing is - the blow-job. It's one of those things "nice or good girls" don't do (more so 20 years ago). It suggests - to me - that some of her concerns about "why do I let him do these things to me" are less to do with her personal needs and desires than the fact that society polices female sexuality.

Much of what I've said is encapsulated in the following remark:
INVISIBLE BUFFY: No! Maybe because for the first time since ... I'm free. Free of rules and reports ... free of this life. To which Spike responds "Free of life? Got another name for that. Dead". It's society's rules and regulations that allow "being to emerge from non-being" - that allow us to live in society. In fact, society only exists because we have rules and regulations. We live in society by following rules and regulations - once we move outside those rules we're "dead" to society. This (again, IMO) is important because Spike himself is not only biologically dead but also "dead" to the real world (the wider society outside the Scoobies and Watchers Counci) because "Vampires don't exist" (remember the excuses Snyder used to make - explaining things as PCP gang related etc. and people soaked them up? They either believed them or wanted to believe them because it made the world understandable). The Rules and Regulations about vampires come to us from the WC.

Other lines that testify to the above.
SPIKE: That was bloody stupid.
INVISIBLE BUFFY: What's the matter? Ashamed to be seen with me?

Also - again, I feel sorry for Spike. He knows why she's exploiting the situation. Again - the text seems to show that he's only in it for the sex when he isn't. He simply wants acknowledgement that a) he exists and b) they're in a relationship.
SPIKE: Yeah, now! But sooner or later your chums are gonna work out a way to bring you back to living color. (lets her go) You need to go. Get dressed if you can find your clothes, and push off. 'Cause if I can't have all of you, I'd rather- Okay, that's cheating.

Does this make sense? Am I reading too much into it? I often do - but it doesn't mean it isn't there! 🙂 Actually - no - I'm not reading too much into it - I could go much further than this. 😀 I'm trying to figure out the significance of this: "Hey, I'm walking here!" I'm reading it as a reference to this:

Immediately before it she says this: "He threw *me* out? He threw *me*. Did I, like, fall into some ... backward dimension here? Is this Bizarro World? (kicks the can again) And after he's always going on and on about being the only one that understands me. 'We're alike, you and me. Birds of a bloody feather.' Uh! He's so ..." (Bizarro World is a Superman reference - I haven't followed up on it.

I'm guessing the text is suggesting that - like Rizzo and Joe - they'll ultimately end up being there for each other? By sending her home he stops her submitting symbolic suicide AND it enables Willow to reverse the spell that could kill her so - in effect he saves her life. A bit like OMWF?

@Priceless - Research Pricey! Research! 🙂 Sorry all - didn't intend for it to be this long!🙁 I digressed.

 

[Spuffy freak]

@Priceless that was the only episode where she was happy in s6
@TriBel I have read this quote somewhere (forgive me if it's from someone very famous and my dumb brain can't remember that person) it goes like this:
We are our most real selves when we are wearing a mask
It's genius really I can relate to it soo much there are so many things I want to do that I can't when I am with my "society" When I travel outside the country or even the city I am a completely different person that shocks even me. Do I want to be that person always? yes but I am not courageous enough.
I saw the episode "Gone" through that quote and that means that was the real her, the things she really wanted but because the society always expected her to be miss goody goody she had to work at DMP to earn money when practically the whole world owned her, she had the danger of not keeping her sister cuz for the SW Dawn was not safe with her sister when she gave her life to save Dawn, she could not date who she really wanted to because that's not acceptable to her friends so she took care of these things when she could wear a mask and be what she really wanted to be. This is the episode where I started believing that she loves Spike or at least falling hard and we really don't talk much about that episode so maybe I read way too much into it. I also think that she only dated Riley because of how he got the stamp of perfect approval from her friends, didn't she say in something blue to Willow that she is not feeling it something is missing with Riley? but then Willow's spell and she gets scared that if she does not start dating a "normal guy" she might end up falling for another "society rejected not a normal guy"
Thankyou for all your research @TriBel I am on the edge of losing my dumb blonde status due to all the research and knowledge you bring in to the group😵

 

[GoSpuffy]

Clearly. I'm not smart enough to be a spuffy fan. 😛 You guys are so interesting to read. I'm so on the surface most of the time. What would i do if I was invisible? My hearts desire. Nothing could stand between me and what I want because I'm invisible. Buffy is following her hearts desire. I love @Priceless answer above in Regards to love in S6. I see it too. Buffy goes to Spike when anything happens. Ex comes back and makes her feel like she's not good enough? Go to Spike. Turn invisible and get a day off? Go to Spike. Spike's her guy whether she wants to admit it or not.

 

[Stoney]

But he is also a way to avoid facing things that will require something of her that she isn't wanting or ready to give. She feels distanced from her past life through her experiences and from her friends. But as much as Buffy is avoiding facing the difficulty of dealing with that, avoiding facing actively taking on being some of who she was before (as much as she can return, nothing can change that she has fundamentally changed), she does want to return to some of it. So some of going to Spike is about feeling freedom and being able to do things without being seen, but some of it is about freedom from expectations, and that includes her own. She is avoiding engaging and facing embracing life again, yet she does want to live in the world again and have active relationships with her friends and family and she does want/choose to return to that by the season end. Spike can't join her there until he is souled, not fully. But being with him when he is is something that she actively wants too, so I am definitely not undermining what draws her to him before he is. 🙂

 

[TriBel]

We are our most real selves when we are wearing a mask

The mask metaphor works just as well - and I think it's the reason we see her shape under the sheet. The sheet or mask gives her a form she wouldn't otherwise have. The scary thing about a mask is not there's something frightening under it but the fear there's nothing under.

When I travel outside the country or even the city I am a completely different person that shocks even me

I think it's for a similar reason that we have Smashed taking place in a deserted house and Touched in a stranger's house. They're both "foreign lands" - Revello Drive is home. I think they're both as real as they can be in the strange houses.

yet she does want to live in the world again and have active relationships with her friends and family and she does want/choose to return to that by the season end.

I agree. Something happens at the end and I haven't figured out what. I'm sure it's something to do with Willow and Dawn. For me, the most interesting thing about him getting the soul is the editing process. It's cut to look as though it's taking place at the same time as Will's battle with Buffy and Buffy/Dawn's battle under his crypt. It may be something to do with an unconscious reconciliation - or the revelation of a lost moment in her past (like the yellow crayon) - I'm not sure. It's an awareness that sets her up to forgive him in S7. I don't think it's just the soul - for the simple reason "forgiveness" is suggested in the Prayer to St Francis at the end of Grave and it bridges all of them (including - I think - Andrew). Perhaps she forgives herself for something. I'm still waiting for my Eureka! moment.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

I like to compare invisi-Buffy to vampire Willow. Regular Willow cannot be gay, but vampire Willow can. Visible Buffy cannot enjoy sex with Spike, but invisi-Buffy can.

 

[zoe]

Day 1: By S7, do you think the PTB would create snow to save Spike from greeting the sun? If not, how about AtS S5?

Agree with the others i don´t think the PTB cares about Spike

Day 2 - If Angel is made human at the end of Season 11, what would happen between him and Buffy and Spike? How would they all handle it?

I´m gona be optimistic and say that even Spike felt insecure they can handle it so it´s not gona be something that leads to a breaking up

Day 3 - If things had gone differently in 'Crush', would Spike have staked Dru to prove his love?

I think that yes, but he would have repented for it

Day 4: if you could pick a song (or songs) for Spike and Buffy, which would you go for?

I´m re-watching S6 and the song that comes to my mind is One more night from Maroon 5

“Try to tell you no but my body keeps on telling you yes
Try to tell you stop but your lipstick got me so out of breath
I'll be waking up in the morning probably hating myself
And I'll be waking up feeling satisfied but guilty as hell”

Day 5: Why does Buffy ask Spike if he loves her in As You Were, if she doesn't believe he can love? What are your thoughts on this scene?

I have mixed feelings here, ´cause what she´s asking him is make love to me, and then make me feel desired, on S6 Buffy says that she wants to feel, and the question is what? What is what Spike can make her feel? Love, lust, adrenalin, safety, “darkness”, maybe a mix of all these, and that´s what she needed it in that moment.

I think that in that moment she wants to feel loved and desired and Spike can give her this

Day 5: Why did Buffy after getting the invisibility power and getting the job done with the social worker went straight to Spike and spent the whole day there that he had to throw her out and she didn't want to go, with that power she could go anywhere, do anything so why spend the whole day doing Spike

I think she loses her inhibitions, and goes to do something that she would like, and at the same time she evade their responsibilities/duties and the hard part of her life, and of course having a good time with Spike

The other thing is - the blow-job. It's one of those things "nice or good girls" don't do (more so 20 years ago). It suggests - to me - that some of her concerns about "why do I let him do these things to me" are less to do with her personal needs and desires than the fact that society polices female sexuality.

“The last guy I was with, it got really— I behaved like a monster, treated him like— But at the same time, I-I let him completely take me over. Do things to me that—“ (CWDP)

I have always question myself what are the things that he did to her, I mean she´s talking about sex or something more “vampiric”.

If she´s talking about sex, I don´t like the perception that she should be ashamed for it, I can understand that she´s ashamed for the relationship ´cause to her Spike is a serial killer with only a chip, but I don´t think she should be ashamed for the sex itself, not for enjoying it, and maybe this has to do with what had been already discussed about how anal sex and the blow job, and others stuff can be a taboo in society

I have always found curios that Angel feed from her (even there was a life-death situation), Dracula feed from her and she drunk from his blood and with Spike we never see this, you know S6 it´s the darkest season and still the show focus on sex no in “vampirics” things, and comes to my mind many questions, so if at the end of the day nobody has other question I would like to know your thoughts on this for day 6

Do you think Spike restrict from himself to bite her? With the Buffybot he seems to want to do it, is something that Buffy would allow him or not?

 

[Priceless]

I think she was particularly cruel to Spike - she made him look foolish in front of Xander. However, this also suggests - to me - that she unconsciously WANTS Xander to know because ultimately it would be easier for her

I agree that Buffy wants her friends to know, without having the difficult task of telling them. I think in Entropy Buffy does feel some relief that her secret has been revealed. Spike throwing Buffy out proves that he's not only in this relationship for the sex.

I think it's for a similar reason that we have Smashed taking place in a deserted house and Touched in a stranger's house. They're both "foreign lands" - Revello Drive is home. I think they're both as real as they can be in the strange houses.

This is a great point. They are both neutral places, with no history attached, so they don't have to be or behave in a certain way in these places. I'd never thought of it in this way before.
 
Day 6: Do you think Spike restrict from himself to bite her? With the Buffybot he seems to want to do it, is something that Buffy would allow him or not?

Being a vampire, I have no doubt that Spike wants to bite Buffy. I would imagine it's difficult for him to stop himself biting her and he buries this need in the sex (taboo sex maybe) and the violence within the sex.

In the show Buffy once got angry that he called her an animal so I doubt she'd be understanding about the biting. I think she'd see it as reducing her to the level of food. She also felt guilty about some of their sexual practices so I don't think she'd happily encourage biting as part of their play.

In Season 11 we know their is love and trust between them because Buffy encourages Spike to feed from her, even though he doesn't want to. This shows a real growth in their relationship, and though there is still conflict around the feeding, they deal with it quietly and maturely

 

[Priceless]

Been re-reading all your posts and I used to really dislike Gone, but you've all persuaded me that it's a much better episode than I originally thought. There is so much more going on than I ever imagined, you clever lot 😀