31 Days of (Christmas) Spuffy

[Spuffy freak]

Do you think Spike restrict himself to bite her? With the Buffybot he seems to want to do it, is something that Buffy would allow him or not?
He is a vampire so he must really want to bite but all his yapping about slayer blood and big bad talk I don't know how much he wanted to eat her like that. In Tabula Rasa he is given a clean slate his chip doesn't work on her but he still does not want to eat her so for a vampire should not bloodlust be their first natural instinct? in sleeper too the first make him drink soo many people but only when he comes close to drink her blood he gets back to himself and fight The First so again should not the scent of Slayer blood made it more difficult for him to control and fight the First? there is something going on unconsciously, he never really wanted to drink her blood. Maybe it's love that's always there even when he himself is not exactly there, to make him control his most baser urges.
If you are talking about blood play in their sexual activities then I think they made it pretty clear that the blood play was never involved, not in s6 and not in comics. The panel @Priceless posted had nothing sexual going on and he feeds from her more than once in s11 as Buffy said "only when I see him struggling" so that is strictly for keeping him alive and stronger and not for pleasure at all, again a commendable job from the creators I actually found this issue very romantic and it had the tendency to go very disturbing, disgusting or unhealthy. The way writers tackled it only they could make blood play look romantic and healthy cuz it's needed the blood ration is not enough and he is starving and the government really doesn't care if they get weaker or die of not feeding. So it's not something they enjoy, that they could easily enjoy it being pleasurable and all, but they both care about each other way more than that to give into the pleasure, doing it during sex would make it more uncontrollable so even if Buffy lets him do it I don't think Spike would do it and Buffy is no Riley so she won't let him do it during sex either cuz that is when it could seriously become dangerous.
Letting him do things in s6 was probably about the rough sex, fighting makes them hornier it's in their nature and with Spike only she let herself go it must be what she was talking about in CWDP and not any vampire biting

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

No, Buffy would not let Spike bite her. In Dead Things, Spike puts on the cuffs after Buffy refuses, showing that Spike was happy to put himself at Buffy's mercy, but Buffy was not willing to do the same. Spike wants to give himself to love completely. Buffy guards her integrity and her agency.

 

[GoSpuffy]

No, Buffy would not let Spike bite her. In Dead Things, Spike puts on the cuffs after Buffy refuses, showing that Spike was happy to put himself at Buffy's mercy, but Buffy was not willing to do the same. Spike wants to give himself to love completely. Buffy guards her integrity and her agency.

Buffy wore the cuffs. In the next scene she is talking to Tara and rubbing her wrists because they're sore from the cuffs. But I agree Buffy didn't go there, no biting on his part until S11. But we saw Buffy biting spike (maybe in a daily?) and spike asked "want to see the bite marks?" That time

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Buffy wore the cuffs. In the next scene she is talking to Tara and rubbing her wrists because they're sore from the cuffs. But I agree Buffy didn't go there, no biting on his part until S11. But we saw Buffy biting spike (maybe in a daily?) and spike asked "want to see the bite marks?" That time

Really? I guess I was confused, because in the flashback, we only see Spike wearing them, don't we? I always assumed that meant Buffy refused.

 

[GoSpuffy]

Really? I guess I was confused, because in the flashback, we only see Spike wearing them, don't we? I always assumed that meant Buffy refused.

The rubbing the wrists while talking to Tara is meant to convey that she did trust Spike enough to cuff her.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

The rubbing the wrists while talking to Tara is meant to convey that she did trust Spike enough to cuff her.

All right, well, then I retract my earlier statement. I have no idea if he would let him bite her. If she wore the cuffs, then she would not have been able to stop him.

 

[GoSpuffy]

All right, well, then I retract my earlier statement. I have no idea if he would let him bite her. If she wore the cuffs, then she would not have been able to stop him.

But don't you think spike would stop himself knowing Buffy wouldn't want it? The cuffs were so he could show her she could trust him not to bite

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

But don't you think spike would stop himself knowing Buffy wouldn't want it? The cuffs were so he could show her she could trust him not to bite

Obviously, he did, as Buffy was still alive the next day. However, in Seeing Red, he didn't. I think I would have preferred it if Buffy hadn't worn the cuffs. Of course, Spike had no intention to harm her, but he was not completely trustworthy.

 

[zoe]

The truth before the comics there was a part of me who thought that they might have done it, but you are right re-reading comics it´s clear that it´s the first time they do it.

It´s just that S6 it's supposed to be the darkest season and writters could have taken to another level and having Spike biting her, but instead they decided go on other direction. In many sites i´ve seen that when someone asks what other thing could have happened in SR instead the AR, some fans agree that maybe Spike losing control and biting her could have worked, and i found "curious" that writters decided not to go there and use only the sex.

 

[flow]

Two very tough questions for Day5 and Day6. You guys are really challenging 🙂

Day 5: Why did Buffy after getting the invisibility power and getting the job done with the social worker went straight to Spike and spent the whole day there that he had to throw her out and she didn't want to go, with that power she could go anywhere, do anything so why spend the whole day doing Spike😛?

I think....that she did feel free of the burden, she had had to carry with her for many weeks or months. The burden of keeping secrets from her friends and her watcher, the burden of her financial problems, the burden of taking care of Dawn.....she wanted to celebrate that freedom.

I was, as if she wanted to have a party, to have fun, after all her troubles just for once. It is revealing, that she went to Spike of all People, when she finally felt free to do, what she really wanted.
Obviously being with him or doing him or both was, what she wanted to do most. But as their relationship in season6 is partly unhealthy, this is partly unhealthy too. It is a bit, as if she had gotten severly drunk. Being drunk lifts the heavy burden of responsibility and makes you feel free and lighthearted. But if you wake up, the burden is still there and in addition to it, you will have a hangover.

Do you think Spike restrict himself to bite her? With the Buffybot he seems to want to do it, is something that Buffy would allow him or not?

Ah....well. We know, that she bit him. There is that scene from the dailies, where she bites and scratches him. There is also the scene, where he talks about the bitemarks on his body.

We never once see him bite her or her having marks or both talking about it. They definitely had rough sex. There is one scene, where she rubs her wrists and I think another, where she talks about him being rough or at least not gentle. But she never mentions biting.

It has been mentioned before, when Angel and Dracula bit her. Both scenes weren`t actual sex scenes, but they had a very heavy sexual undertone. So I don`t think, that he ever bit her in season6. I don`t think, she would have allowed it, had he asked her. That would have been too close to admit, that she can trust him.

I actually don`t even think, that Spike had to restrict himself not to bite her. I think, he was perfectly happy with the physical stuff he got. It was the non-physical stuff, he missed.

flow

 

[Puppet]

We've forgotten day 7...

Day 7: Create your own S7 (even if you think it was a great season) how does the ensouled Spike/newfound acceptance being alive Buffy interact without the FE storyline?

 

[flow]

I think I would have preferred it if Buffy hadn't worn the cuffs. Of course, Spike had no intention to harm her, but he was not completely trustworthy.

I actually think, that is why she did it. Taking the risk was the thrill for her.

I was just asking myself, if the scene, where Spike is handcuffed is a flashback (to something that has really happened) or a dream (about something, she desired, but that never happened). What do you think ?

I want to put up the question for day !

flow
 
For day 8 ! Just noticed, that the number of the day was missing. And I am thinking about season7 without the First Evil. Might take me a while, til I come up with something 🙂

flow

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

I was just asking myself, if the scene, where Spike is handcuffed is a flashback (to something that has really happened) or a dream (about something, she desired, but that never happened). What do you think ?

I think Spike was already metaphorically chained to Buffy. He constantly puts himself at her mercy. When he confronts her in Smashed, she could have chosen to kill him. I think the danger Buffy represents is a big part of her appeal. I see no reason why he would not want to wear them, though, for him, they are almost redundant.

 

[TriBel]

Do you think Spike restrict himself to bite her? With the Buffybot he seems to want to do it, is something that Buffy would allow him or not?

Oh I don't know - I know bugger all today!🙁

Vampires since Stoker have traditionally represented the Id - the unconscious part of the mind. The Id operates on the pleasure principle and in the initial stages before the ego is formed pleasure comes from orality. I wonder whether the oral sex she initiates in Gone positions her much more closely to vampirism than the missionary position he adopts (particularly if she enjoys it)?😱

With the Buffy Bot he's acting out his fantasy (which is arguably what she is doing in Gone) but his fantasy is (I think) less to do with sex than it is to do with love. In intervention, he only expresses satisfaction with the Bot when she kisses him and smiles at him. Until then he finds her artificial (I'd want to read this as "man-made". The metaphor he uses - plasticine - suggests something pliable and easily moulded. I'm not sure whether we're meant to read this as a comment about the Bot OR whether it's a reference to the way in which the Watcher's mould slayers. At the beginning of the episode Buffy complains about feeling uneasy about stuff. She means slaying but Giles persuades her it's related to her mother's death). It seems to me the Bot's not simply a sex object for Spike but his ideal woman - (so a mixture of scared and profane?). He wants her to "Just be Buffy". I think he satisfies his desire for oral pleasure by kissing and talking to her rather than biting - something Buffy is reluctant to do in S6 ("are we having a conversation?"). My opinion of Spike is - he is trying to develop a sense of self beyond that of vampire - he wants Buffy to see him as something other than a monster. In S5 he's trying on "the mask" (as @Spuffy freak calls it) or the costume of the Chivalric Knight - he adopts the discourse of Courtly Love and medievalism (a promise to a Lady etc.). The Buffy Bot gets bad press BUT I'm wondering whether it's possible to see it as the logical conclusion of chivalry - women elevated - not lowered - to such a level of esteem and unattainability that she becomes a thing? A pure fantasy? Doesn't she accuse him of wanting her because she's unattainable in Chosen? I find it interesting that her friends can't spot the difference in S5 and he spots the real Buffy in about 3 seconds in s6.

In addition, I don't think it's coincidence that when she leaves for the desert she makes this remark.

GILES: There is something ... in the Watchers' diaries ... a quest.
BUFFY: A quest? Like finding a grail or something?
GILES: Not a grail. Maybe answers.

That both are using a similar register suggests, to me, that they're looking for a similar thing - an impossible, illusionary ideal - something to give meaning to their lives. There's an essay on Courtly Love here http://www.whedonstudies.tv/uploads/2/6/2/8/26288593/spah_slayage_2.1.pdf I think the fact that it is idealistic, that the knight places the lady so far above him in and aspires to be like her is something that would deter him biting (except very, very playfully). TBH, I wonder whether the biting that's alluded to Intervention is a vampire "role playing" a vampire (playing the big bad he no longer is - if that makes sense). Would she have allowed it? No - but I don't think it was called for. In S11 it was - perhaps literally - a matter of life/death. Interestingly, Mallory referred to the Grail as the Holy Grail - in Old French san-grail which means "Royal Blood". If she is his grail then he does want her blood but only metaphorically (is it a synecdoche?). It also helps explain his affinity with Dawn who's also her blood.

Spike is handcuffed is a flashback (to something that has really happened) or a dream (about something, she desired, but that never happened).

I think I thought it was the latter but I think my thinking capacity is dwindling - can I think about it some more tomorrow? On reflection - it may have been a combination of both (as dreams tend to be).

Day 7: Create your own S7 (even if you think it was a great season) how does the ensouled Spike/newfound acceptance being alive Buffy interact without the FE storyline?

Does FE stand for First Evil?

 

[Stoney]

Obviously, he did, as Buffy was still alive the next day. However, in Seeing Red, he didn't. I think I would have preferred it if Buffy hadn't worn the cuffs. Of course, Spike had no intention to harm her, but he was not completely trustworthy.

I had never assumed she did let him either, but I'll look for the wrist rub now though. I agree SR clearly shows Spike wasn't completely trustworthy and if she did let him cuff her it wasn't wise in case he lost control, which he later did. I think there was a point to which Buffy, along with the audience, needed reminding that Spike was dangerous despite his intentions and promises and the wake up call was for her, as well as him and some of the audience. When he told her he didn't hurt her in Entropy she agreed with him, even if she didn't agree with the depth of his feelings. So if she did, then possibly having let him cuff her could work towards that aspect of SR too.

We've forgotten day 7...

Day 7: Create your own S7 (even if you think it was a great season) how does the ensouled Spike/newfound acceptance being alive Buffy interact without the FE storyline?

I'm rubbish at reimagining the seasons, because I just never want to. I'm sorry, I just love it as it is.

 

[TriBel]

I had never assumed she did let him either, but I'll look for the wrist rub now though.

There's definitely an unconscious wrist rub - which is why I always presumed she did. TBH, I thought this was a call back to it (S7 Potentials):

BUFFY: You just have to learn to trust yourself. Rona, what did your instincts tell you to do just then?
RONA (half-heartedly) Block his attack, keep him off balance, gain the advantage...?
BUFFY No, they didn't.
RONA (frankly) They told me to run.
VI (rubbing her wrist) They told me to run. They're still sort of telling me to run.

We then have the shot of Spike "attacking" Buffy, Buffy overpowering him and then lifting his shirt.

MOLLY (still taking notes) So, we're supposed to, like, make out with them or something?
VI (still rubbing her wrist and holding a stake) Careful, Buffy. Just when you think it's part of the lesson, he'll (gestures to her hurt wrist) hurt your arm.

I always though it was a comment on the quandary she finds herself in. She makes herself vulnerable (as she had in Dead Things - a lesson in trust) and then realises she's still attracted to him. She's torn between the instinct to run (because he betrayed that trust) and trusting her instinctual feeling he's changed. It's the quandary she reiterates to Amanda in the later scene. I don't think it's any coincidence that the arm of the Turok-Han (the primeval vampire) is severed in First Date and she asks Spike to stay at the end of the episode.

 

[flow]

Day 7: Create your own S7 (even if you think it was a great season) how does the ensouled Spike/newfound acceptance being alive Buffy interact without the FE storyline?

It is a really tough question and I have to go with @Stoney saying, I like season7 the way it is. And we need a Big Bad for season 7, so why not use the First Evil ? It was a good Big Bad although a lot of peoplekeep saying, it wasn`t.
One possibility would be, to have Giles killed by the Bringer and then appear to the scoobies as the First Evil. That would have had much potential.

Another possibility would have been, to explore the impact, the soul had on Spike, more. We have once read Lovingkindness by Herself in our Fanfic Discussion Club and in that story Spike constantly saw and heard people he once killed.He was coping with it, without getting insane, but he was struggeling. He said once in that story, that he traded sleep for a soul. To me that was far more convincing, than the insanity - which might have been the work of the First Evil as well as the work of the soul - and then not much more talk about it. Also, of course, there should have been adressing the AR. But I don`t really have a story line for that either.

flow

 

[Priceless]

Day 7: Create your own S7 (even if you think it was a great season) how does the ensouled Spike/newfound acceptance being alive Buffy interact without the FE storyline?

I agree with @Stoney and @flow that Season 7 is pretty perfect already and I can't think of much I'd want to change, but seeing as you've issued the challenge . . . 🙂

The Buffy/Spike worked for me. I loved how faltering they were at the start and how their relationship built up into the partnership it became and the mutual support they gave each other. I know some fans wanted more remorse from Spike, but I thought we got enough. Spike is not Angel and the writers weren't delivering fan-service, they were trying to tell a story and give some insight into the human condition and I thought they did that really well. So I wouldn't change any of the S7 Spuffy 🙂

There are other things I might change, given the opportunity and one of the main things I would have liked to see more of (or even some) is the Dawn/ Spike friendship. I am sure Dawn eventually forgave Spike and I wish we had seen that on the screen.

I would also have Anya's story built up from episode 1 because by the time we get to Selfless I don't feel we've seen enough of her. I think seeing her interact with Spike could bring her more to the forefront.

I'd have liked more Giles, and wish he could have been in more episodes, perhaps helping Willow keep her magic in check. Maybe see less Andrew, who I am not a fan of. I have a problem with the Faith/Spike on the bed scene, although I understand why it's there and I like Buffy's reaction, I just wish Faith and Spike didn't get so close, but that's probably more about my issues with Faith than the show 😀

 

[Spuffy freak]

Day 7: Create your own S7 (even if you think it was a great season) how does the ensouled Spike/newfound acceptance being alive Buffy interact without the FE storyline?
I am not a big fan of FE and I liked Sunnydale and he destroyed it so I will happily get rid of him. I didn't like potentials also they made it too crowded would prefer more focus on Buffy, Spike, Willow(coping up Tara's death without Kennedy hitting on her every second of the day) and Anya(without Xander cuz she was a very strong character and her own person didn't need soo much Xander). If there was no FE that means no Spike burning and ending up with the Peaches, so I could see Spuffy going the same way as it did in comics (minus s8 of course) because there was bad history, guilt and regret from both the sides so yeah there was no way for the instant jumping the bones or running into the arms kind of scenario, Spuffy is more gradual and that is what I love the most about their storyline. Not a big fan of Faith but won't remove the basement Spike-Faith scene cuz it was good to see jealous Buffy, why only Buffy always got the chance to make Spike jealous with Riley, Angel, Wood and that s6 Party guy and then Spike did hit Faith for Buffy so no harsh feelings for Spike, those expressions on Buffy's face were worth it

 

[Stoney]

I really didn't like the potentials and all the time that was spent on them, but they had their part in the story. The disruption and distraction they forced on the group played its part in how the group dynamics were being forced to change, as a representation of how wider responsibilities shift and take different degrees of attention away from members of the group, some more than others. The way the core group were realigning how they interacted was awkward and bumpy through the season and I see why some people who are 'core 4 first' fans may not have liked that, especially as a final season, but I thought it was really relatable to a stage I found quite tough as I grew up. That shift to running your life as an adult and how it draws your attention steadily more away from being all about your friendship group before everything else. Work and more adult relationships start to take precedence eventually and seeing the group try to work through similar changes was great. I mean, the group dynamics were steadily changing ever since they left school and went to college/work, but following the life events of S5 & 6 I think S7 really markedly shows how they have moved apart but are working out how to also stick together in their emerging adult lives/selves (if that makes sense!!).

Although I would have loved to see some Spike/Dawn, I think Spike's wariness of interactions with the group when he is first souled works really well. For someone who creates an image and 'hides' often, his uncertainty makes total sense. I think that any more focus on open remorse from Spike (of which there are actually a a good few incidents through the season which are clear and not just 'mad' ramblings), would have seemed out of character too considering how he controls how he presents himself so much and fears being weak. And as much as I'd have liked it, I actually see his lack of interaction with Dawn as yet another example of his remorse. He turned from her in S6 to focus on Buffy and then when she threatens him he doesn't feel he has any right to try and fix things, doesn't know how he would if he could. I think he is right that there needs to be more time and space for them both before they can reconnect. It works then that the danger she is in at the end of S9 is what brings him back and what seems to finally break the defences/barrier that had grown between them, it's just brilliant. It is probably in fact made better and feels more genuine because of the wait that there was for it to happen, and with the emotionally heightened circumstances that manage to pull it down.

So this is what happens to me any time I try to reimagine the seasons, I start to talk myself out of disrupting the version that we got, even if it is to remove an aspect that I don't like, like the potentials. 🙂

I love Spike/Dawn friendship in fics and if you haven't read Old Blood by Nan Dibble I can highly recommend it as a S7 alternative where Spike/Dawn takes centre stage. I've never read the sequels because the first wasn't 'Spuffy' enough for me, but if you enjoy Spike/Dawn it is brilliant and gave one of my all time favourite fanfic scenes that I'd have loved to see JM/MT act. 😀