A Lover or a Killer?

[Taake]

Do I view Spike as a lover or a killer... ?
Hm, well I would have to say both.

When Spike first came on the scene what drew me to his character was the duality of bad-ass Spike, a tender-Dru-loving Spike. The contrast between the two were fascinating to watch and set him a part from the other run-of-the-mill vampires. In other words what I liked about the character was that he had a lot of heart.

For the killer part I would have to say that it would be a too easy of a way out to label Spike (and Angel whom he is oft compared to) as just a killer, because to me, of course they are. They have spent 100+ years as fierce predators, ergo they have killed and are killers. Both of them. It's in their very nature.

But neither is only that.

Rather human like vampire Spike seems to - even in pre-chip, pre-soul - have had an ability to love...though I would have to be honest here and say that to me, before these things were put into the story, that his ''love'' seemed more like obsessions to me an not really love at all. More of a misguided fixation (no doubt spurred by his lovelorn human self) with a woman of choice, be it his mother when first vamped, Drusilla for a couple of centuries, or Buffy by the end of all that.

It can also be noted that I don't necessarily mean that this is misguided or unfortunate for the women but to Spike himself as neither obsession is very healthy or turns out very well for him...

Enter a soul.
It is first here that I would go on and say that I could on any level label Spike as a 'lover' because as we see his very unhealthy fixation/obsession with Buffy turn into a real kind of love (the speech in Touched would doubtlessly never have occured in s5-6 because Spike was not yet capable of it then)

So now Spike has learned to love. What he needs now - IMO - is to learn that he deserves to be loved back.

And in summation I would say that Spike's personality, by now, includes but is not limited to being both a killer and a lover.
Though souled-Spike has clearly moved away from strictly being a 'killer' (shades of gray: he still a white hat killing demons and therefor I would not exclude the label of killer on the basis of him not killing innocents anymore)

End of that long-winded post 🙂

 

[Flannen]

I understand that this is your opinion of course, but I just can't wrap my head around it. I mean, it's always baffling to me when people don't like Spike at all, but to say that he is "nothing" at all or stands for nothing when he literally sacrificed his life to save the world and the woman he loves-- I truly don't understand that. I would say that categorically, any character who gives his life for a greater cause immediately has my attention and respect--at the very least.

Well there's nothing I can say to make you understand it. I think the points I've already made are fairly logical and do support why I feel the way I do. So, sadly, I think it will just have to be one of those things you don't understand. And I think you've played with the semantics of my phrase about not seeing him as "anything". That is very different to saying that he is "nothing". What I mean by not seeing him as anything is that I have no investment in him beyond seeing him as a character in a show, a character who irks the heck out of me, at that.

He isn't individual or original? The only vampire in history who voluntarily seeks out his soul? And, while still soulless, fights at the side of the slayer repeatedly helping to save her and those she loves?

Sorry, but I just don't so these as reasons why I should fall at his feet. His archetypal character is tired and despite the fact he went to seek his soul, it's a recycled storyline that instigated the first time I rolled my eyes at Joss Whedon. (Metaphorically, of course. If only I could do it physically 😉).

Yes, he lives and dies for other people. As a result of his strong convictions. He chose to become good when all he had within him was evil--when he fought back his inner demon so much and so successfully that he was able to earn back his soul. For love. In order to consistently do the right thing. How can a character such as that inspire indifference?

Personally I find saying that he lives and dies for other people sugarcoats the fact that Spike has absolutely no idea who he is and no conviction.

You're taken aback at my indifference because of how YOU view the character. I don't see his character that way. If your opinion of him was factual then I could understand why you're so baffled but he inspires indifference in me because I don't think he's so admirable or brave or whatever else. I don't have the same positive attitude towards Spike's actions and decisions.

Wow. This is what I love about him so much. That he doesn't know who he is. I feel like I do know who he is, because I can see from his actions... but he doesn't. I relate to that. I love watching him as he discovers who he is. I don't think he's anywhere close to finishing figuring out who he is, but he's well on his way. It's cute.

I think the difference between us, is that you have hope he will find his way to himself. But I don't. I think he's already spent such a long time pandering to other people and adapting himself to make himself loved, or feared etc, that he won't get there. I may well be wrong, but there's very little about Spike that I believe in; in the sense that, again I say, he has little conviction.

As I said above, it's futile for me to keep posting my reasons for not liking Spike because I rarely say anything new and there will always be that difference in character interpretation and preference. It's jus' the way it is 🙂

 

[Gum Gnome33]

If your opinion of him was factual then I could understand why you're so baffled but he inspires indifference in me because I don't think he's so admirable or brave or whatever else. I don't have the same positive attitude towards Spike's actions and decisions.

But the specific opinions I stated in my previous post with regard to his sacrifice are absolutely based upon facts. I don't know the guy, and I'm not judging him on his looks, (though obviously he gets high marks for those as well). But like him or hate him, the fact is that he died to save the world. And, yeah, that inspires a few feelings within me!

If you don't think he's admirable or brave, that's fine, (though I will never understand this perspective since I'm pretty sure there are concrete examples in which he is both--at the very least, once he gets his soul back). Ultimately, however, I of course understand that someone might view something Spike does in a different way from how I do.

But my argument here is that I don't understand how one can feel indifferent about a character when the fact is that he sacrificed himself for the world and the woman he loves.

Side note: I apologize if you feel I was twisting your words-- but to me, if you say "I don't feel anything" it is natural for me to infer that "you feel nothing." I don't see a difference in semantics or connotation between the two phrases. Didn't mean to misrepresent you! 🙂

 

[Flannen]

But the specific opinions I stated in my previous post with regard to his sacrifice are absolutely based upon facts. I don't know the guy, and I'm not judging him on his looks, (though obviously he gets high marks for those as well). But like him or hate him, the fact is that he died to save the world. And, yeah, that inspires a few feelings within me!

I wouldn't disagree that he died to save the world, that would just be silly of me lol but it just doesn't inspire those feelings within me. I think it probably has something to do with my bias against him, I'm fully prepared to admit that, but as I was never really invested his story neither was I affected by its conclusion. And even if your opinion is based on facts (I use the term loosely still, btw) it still doesn't make it factual; as in the only and right way to perceive his character.

If you don't think he's admirable or brave, that's fine, (though I will never understand this perspective since I'm pretty sure there are concrete examples in which he is both--at the very least, once he gets his soul back). Ultimately, however, I of course understand that someone might view something Spike does in a different way from how I do.

But my argument here is that I don't understand how one can feel indifferent about a character when the fact is that he sacrificed himself for the world and the woman he loves.

Just because there are examples that could be found that demonstrates acts of bravery, doesn't mean that bravery is a stalwart quality. There are also several examples I could find that would suggest he is far from brave, too.

I think it's quite easy to feel indifferent towards a character you've never had interest in. As a viewer, if I'm drawn to a character, if I'm not invested in their story, I usually am quite indifferent to whatever happens to them. I tend to view them as a mere means to an end. Maybe I should be inspired and in awe of his act of sacrifice but it doesn't change the fact that I'm just not.

Side note: I apologize if you feel I was twisting your words-- but to me, if you say "I don't feel anything" it is natural for me to infer that "you feel nothing." I don't see a difference in semantics or connotation between the two phrases. Didn't mean to misrepresent you! 🙂

It may only make sense to me but I do see and mean that difference which is why I tried to explain it a bit more. In the first post where I said it, I did say that I didn't mean it as horrible as it sounds which I said so that it didn't come across as bluntly as "he is nothing to me", cos that is kinda harsh! 🙂

 

[Kana]

A lot of people have said that Spike is both a lover and killer. I'd agree but I'd also say he's more than that. He's an insecure mummy's boy, he's a warrior, thrill seeker and a sarcastic SOB.

I mean this is the thing, all vampires are more than killers but we rarely get to see it. Harmony is a killer, but also a ditz. Angelus is a dark artist, ballet aficionado, etc. Despite what the Judge says, all vampires have some element of humanity otherwise, they'll be what we see in Pylea. So in that respect, Spike isn't all that special.

As for how we like Spike? I understand where everyone is coming from. It's definitely going to be a case of identification. If you connect with him on some level, you're going to like him more.

I do get what Flannen is saying although I do perhaps like him a little more than she does 😉. Spike's sense of identity was very closely linked to those around him. Even in the early part of Season 7, he distances himself from the demon because he thinks it's what Buffy wants. When she says she wants the killer back, he's hurt at first but he becomes badassSpike again, because Buffy more or less told him to.

This is why I like him in Shells, he stays in LA irrespective of Angel or anyone else. He sees a mission and starts really believing in for his own sake. He finally says "It's what I want".

All the characters are finding their way and have different ways of doing it. Spike's way is certainly no worse, just different.