Dagenspear
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Question A New Moon Rising - Oz/Tara/Willow Love Triangle
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FlowerPower
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Oz didn't tell Wilow that he was a werewolf for roughly the same amount of time back in S2. And unlike Willow, he could directly see a casual link between Willow and danger from him from the minute Willow walked into his house just before the full moon came up. Are you going to say that that Oz didn't trust or respect Willow?
Meanwhile, Willow couldn't have reasonably foreseen that Oz would wolf out in anger in the daylight because it never happened or in giant-Nuremberg rallies size UC Sunnydale that Tara would run into Oz without her. She deserves no blame for the upcoming danger any more than Cordelia deserves blame for creating the Wishverse.
I'm a Willow/Oz shipper so I think that Willow didn't tell Oz because a) she was struggling with her feelings for Tara and coming out about them and b) she really was happy to see Oz and all of her old feelings for him were coming back and as much as she loved Tara, she wanted to enjoy these few hours with Oz that she'd been desperately hoping for since he left. When Buffy told her that she has to be honest with everyone including herself, you could see on AH's expression that Willow really took that to heart and that's why she went to Tara's room to tell her everything and reassure her that she and Oz didn't have sex. I really think that Willow was going to pick Tara and working her way up to telling Oz nicely but in a timely manner.
Willow didn't adhere to the perfect automaton method of telling her ex-boyfriend that she still has feelings for about her new lesbian relationship that she hadn't even told her best friends or parents about because she could foresee an eventuality where he wolfs out in the daylight even though he never did before. I like the story that we actually got even more where Willow felt pulled in twenty different directions and made flawed but heartfelt and kind choices that I could see myself making if I were in her shoes.
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Dagenspear
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Deus Ex Machina
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Well, she didn't have to say "Look, I'm GAY NOW" she could've just said "Well, I am beginning to see someone new" that's it. Nothing more needed to be said. They both could've continued talking the entire night and then Willow could've moved on.
Even if Oz hadn't wolfed out in the daylight before, do you think Oz would've been calm if he had discovered the Willow/Tara thing minus the transformation? I don't think so. Oz rarely loses his cool but if he felt Willow was open to them starting over enough to actually re-enroll into UC Sunnydale and then found out she'd been stringing him along, he'd still have been pissed.
And I am a Willow/Oz shipper, and I know someone is going to say "she wasn't stringing him along, she was confused". However, if Willow had begun seeing a new GUY, we all would've been like "Oh, she totally lead him on"
FlowerPower
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I can't speak for the entire audience but if Willow, as the wronged and abandoned party for months, took a less than a day to tell Oz that she was just starting to date a new boyfriend because she felt torn between Oz and the new guy, I wouldn't have described it as "leading him on". Indecision with unfortunate grievous consequences but Willow never promised Oz a relationship or started physical affection or anything like that.
And I don't think that you can evaluate this without considering the position of gays in 2000 in the United States. When anti-sodomy criminal statutes were constitutional and gay marriage wasn't even a topic of discussion and where on this show, Joss Whedon had to threaten to resign for Willow and Tara to kiss in S5. There's a reason why coming out is treated so seriously among LBGT and their allies. Even beyond homophobia, I more than understand why Willow was afraid of hurting Oz by telling him that there was this whole big side to her sexuality and self that he wasn't and couldn't be a part of. It's never, especially back in 2000, as simple as saying, "Hey, I'm seeing someone new" particularly since I'm SURE Oz's next three questions would be, "Who is he? Do I know him? Can I meet him?"
For the record, I don't blame Oz for wolfing out either. That was a physiological change beyond his control and it's something that his human heart was enough to start overcoming the change to warn Tara and to leave Willow gracefully and respectfully.
Maybe I just have a higher opinion of Oz, but I'm sure that he wouldn't have been a danger to anyone if he didn't wolf out in the day. His feelings would have been hurt either way. They were probably marginally hurt more because Willow's reception and Xander's report of "no guy" really made him think that there was a big chance that he could be with Willow. However, he would never hurt Tara except for the completely unforeseen wolfing out in the day.
I also saw no indication that Willow knew that Oz was re-enrolling back at UC Sunnydale. I also saw Willow wavering in her feelings and feeling all kinds of affection and care for Oz come back and he probably sensed that and inferred that they had a future together. However, I never saw her give him promises that would lead her to believe that he was going to, shock of all shocks, finish his college education all for her and that means she's guilty.
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Willow My Love
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Nah, I like it that way.
See, that's the thing, I don't think she would have struggled so much if it were a new guy she was seeing, but this was a huge thing. She hadn't even told Buffy or Xander, for that matter. Her best friends in the world didn't know, why is she expected to tell her ex-boyfriend, first thing? Look how nervous she was in telling Buffy. She was terrified! Coming out isn't something you do because you "owe" your ex anything. Were I in her place, I'd do the same thing.
Maybe she could have told him she wasn't interested in continuing their relationship, but I think she was so scared of chasing him off that she didn't. She finally got to see him again, and the last thing she wanted was for him to leave all over again.
I completely agree here. Willow couldn't have known this would happen. And she couldn't have known what Tara would say either.
Well I think Willow was afraid how Oz will react when she tell him about Tara! And she was afraid that he would leave her immediantly. She didn't wanted that. I can understand Willow why she didn't told him! And I think that Oz has to understand. He walked away and thought he could return whenever he wanted. Look at:
Personaly I would prefer an honest friendship between Willow and Oz, but I think I would have handled like Willow!
Willow My Love said:
Personaly I would prefer an honest friendship between Willow and Oz, but I think I would have handled like Willow!
FlowerPower
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I love Oz and Willow/Oz. Still Oz cheated on Willow, upped and left her without consulting her, was incommunicado for months even though he was in the position to send for his stuff with Devon while leaving Willow in the position of writing so many letters with no place to send them, in his werewolfness, almost killed her girlfriend and forced her hand to come out prematurely, ungracefully and in the midst of romantic turmoil. That Willow only yelled at Oz right after seeing him nakedly entwined with Veruca and never even spoke crossly to him and treated him with kid gloves and concern when he came back shows tremendous character and love.
I don't think he would have been calm, but he wouldn't have put anyone in any danger which was the point I was arguing.
If Willow had been seeing a guy, the relationship wouldn't have been secret, so that's pretty much a moot point. But still even if we discount this, Willow has no obligation to tell Oz about the existence of any significant others in her life, unless she she wants to date him. As long as she isn't saying "Yeah, let's get back together", I don't think I would count her actions as "leading him on". Rather rude? Sure, but after the way he left her, I think Oz got a warmer welcome that he expected.
FlowerPower
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I wouldn't even describe her actions as "rather rude", given all the circumstances. Given all of the circumstances, how Oz frankly treated her like crap from shutting her out to be Veruca-centered to the months of non-communication, how incredibly scary homophobia is and was back in 2000 and the statistics of gay teens being shut out from their family and friends IF THEY ARE LUCKY compared to out and out murder and abuse (the latter of which I don't think Willow was expecting), that Willow could feel her old love for Oz coming back and was confused about what that meant for her relationship with Tara, how Willow could feel ashamed that she and Oz were so close but there's a big part of her sexuality that he never knew and that hurts for both of them and that Willow wasn't even out to her best friends or parents, let alone the ex-boyfriend that she had already painfully accepted wanted to be away from her.
I'm sorry but all of that is crazy-compelling to me and makes me dismiss the "indignity" of Oz finding out at noon what he "should" have known by 9 PM the previous night or something. Especially since it's written all over AH's face that she painfully agrees with Buffy when Buffy urges her to be honest because either way someone is going to get hurt and she goes to Tara in the headspace of full disclosure. See: Nothing happened physically but you've gotta understand that just talking to Oz is intense and we talked all night. Given those cues, I really think that Willow was planning on a) picking Tara and b) was trying to figure out how to say it to Oz WITHOUT stringing him along.
---------- Post added at 02:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:53 PM ----------
To add, I think that it's something of a right for LGBT people to choose who and in what order they want to come out. Not a fundamental life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness right and of course, surprises are going to happen that change a person's perfect coming out speech. (See Larry coming out to Xander first in the locker room.) Still, I don't think that it should come as a galloping shock to anyone that the person who Willow intellectually and emotionally wanted to be the first to know was Buffy.
W
Willow My Love
I kinda love you.
FlowerPower
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Okay, now I understand you. Yeah, I guess if Willow was dating a college-guy like Tara is a college-girl, she'd have much less motive and reason to keep it secret from Oz and it border closer to rude as opposed to the complete non-rudeness that we got from Willow in the show.
Still, I'd have trouble getting up in arms about Oz not knowing something in a matter of hours after Willow was kept in the dark on everything in his life from when he started in with Veruca to he came back to Sunnydale with the intention to reconcile. I think I'd rank it somewhere below Buffy acting like she's telling Riley the whole story about Angel and going to LA to see Angel but never telling Riley the huge Season 2-arc of the Buffy/Angel story. And for the record, I wasn't even that angry at Buffy and I don't think the majority of the audience is either.
Still, I'd have trouble getting up in arms about Oz not knowing something in a matter of hours after Willow was kept in the dark on everything in his life from when he started in with Veruca to he came back to Sunnydale with the intention to reconcile. I think I'd rank it somewhere below Buffy acting like she's telling Riley the whole story about Angel and going to LA to see Angel but never telling Riley the huge Season 2-arc of the Buffy/Angel story. And for the record, I wasn't even that angry at Buffy and I don't think the majority of the audience is either.
Dagenspear
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Oz can't be held responsible for his werewolf. It's not him. Willow, on the other hand, is completely herself, and she still manages to cheat on Oz, screw with dark magic when she was upset or angry, rape Tara's mind... The list goes on and on. So let's not pretend like Willow is so freaking great. Cause she's not.
---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:52 PM ----------
And Oz left to protect Willow, because he didn't trust himself anymore.
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You know what I've learned from this thread? How much Willow doesn't deserve Tara.
FlowerPower
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Dagenspear, you clearly hate Willow and are biased against her. Which is fine because everyone is entitled to their opinion but this thread is about whether Willow's conduct toward Oz in New Moon Rising was fair, decent, etc. Attacking Willow for stuff that she did in S3 or S6 or saying bald-faced lies like "Willow messed with dark magic whenever she was upset" is off topic. (Proven by the fact that she was upset in TOPIC New Moon Rising and never messed with dark magic.) You did the same thing on the thread when we were debating whether resurrecting Buffy is sympathetic, okay, can be reasoned, etc. If you want to list Willow's misdeeds, why don't you start a blog or do so on the anti-Willow thread (in her character thread) because some of us would like to debate on the topic of the thread. However, no one is going to say, "Oh yeah, Willow was rotten to Oz in New Moon Rising because she killed Warren" or "Willow was wrong to keep Tara a secret from Oz because she totally didn't deserve St. Tara" or something like that. It's anti-logic.
And Oz was in human form when he kissed, stared at, flirted with and called Veruca for anticipated sex on their second werewolf night. He even tries to excuse his behavior by saying that he had to drag Veruca into the cage for public safety. Of course, Oz didn't tell Buffy about Veruca when Buffy was looking for the werewolf that attacked Maggie Walsh or tell Willow what was on his mind when she repeatedly asked. That's all on Human Oz. It's also all on Human Oz to make like he's going to leave without saying goodbye to Willow, not consult with his girlfriend of two years about his leaving and have more communication with Devon than Willow when he was so elsewhere. To Oz's credit, he takes responsibility for all of that in TOPIC this episode.
And Oz was in human form when he kissed, stared at, flirted with and called Veruca for anticipated sex on their second werewolf night. He even tries to excuse his behavior by saying that he had to drag Veruca into the cage for public safety. Of course, Oz didn't tell Buffy about Veruca when Buffy was looking for the werewolf that attacked Maggie Walsh or tell Willow what was on his mind when she repeatedly asked. That's all on Human Oz. It's also all on Human Oz to make like he's going to leave without saying goodbye to Willow, not consult with his girlfriend of two years about his leaving and have more communication with Devon than Willow when he was so elsewhere. To Oz's credit, he takes responsibility for all of that in TOPIC this episode.
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Dagenspear
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I don't hate Willow at all. I adore her character. But if you're gonna start blaming Oz for things that he doesn't have complete control over, then I'm gonna blame Willow for things that she does have control over. You're the one who attacked Oz. I'm just defending him. If anyone's biased here, it's you.
Nobody attacked Oz. He did everything that you quoted from FlowerPower's post. Now personally I believe this only happened because Seth Green was leaving the show and they had to write his character out but still, those things happened. And except for attacking Tara, he was fully in control of his actions when he did all that. He was extremely irresponsible in regards to Veruca, this wasn't just a matter of him cheating or not, it was a matter of public safety. I am not a big fan of Oz myself but I find his behaviour wildly OOC in "Wild at Heart".
Dagenspear
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He was never in complete control. His werewolf instincts influenced his decisions. It all has to do with what he realizes in that episode. That the wolf is in him all the time and he can't always control it, full moon or not.
FlowerPower
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So? Angel always has Angelus in him. We still expect him to not act as a demon. From S6 on, Willow always has black magic in her. We expect her to resist its addictive control. And while the wolf in Oz may have influenced his attraction to Veruca when Oz was human, the animalistic, primal, stupidly brutal werewolf did not tell Oz, "Lie to Buffy when she's looking for the monster that attacked Walsh", "Don't write or call Willow to make sure you're away" or "Try leaving without saying goodbye". Heck, Oz dialing Veruca and calling her to come over so she's locked in a cage with him, using the cover of protecting people, is entirely Human Oz.
Dagenspear
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Influenced by the werewolf in him. He was confused. With his own personal judgement in his head and then the werewolf in him screaming for it, he screwed up.
And Angel doesn't become a vampire, he IS a vampire, he accepted that in him a long time ago, and that allowed him to successfully maintain control, which is exactly what Oz couldn't do, accept that about himself, accept that he didn't just turn into a werewolf, that he WAS a werewolf ALL THE TIME, which is the real reason why all of this happened, because he couldn't accept it. And if you recall, Willow didn't have ANY addictive control AT ALL, until something shook her out of her denial and forced her see how bad off she really was. And that's what this Veruca thing was for Oz.
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You said that you should be able to talk to your exes, and then you asked how was Willow supposed to?Willow My Love said:
Willow My Love
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You misunderstood me. You should be able to talk to your exes about life, yes. But how do you tell them something that big? I talk to my exes about how things are going, light conversation to catch up. I don't tell them my biggest secrets. If was more of a rhetorical question of how can she bring herself to tell him this big secret without chasing him away?