Abortion

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I don't have to know someone to know that abortion is wrong. And just because you don't kill the baby doesn't mean you have to keep it. We all know there are lots of people out there who can't have a baby that would love someone else's.

My mother resented me, abused, and neglected me. I have a lot of mental problems because of it, yes. But that doesn't mean that I don't want to be here. And I'm glad that my right to live wasn't taken away for my mother's "right" to choose.

We don't know what a fetus is feeling or thinking, correct. But we do know that it does feel pain and has a nervous system at 5 weeks. Which is about the time a woman finds that she is even pregnant.
There have been cases in which during 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions where the baby has actually tried to escape the doctor. It has basic survival instincts, how is it not alive? How is is not human? There is no difference in a 1st trimester fetus and a 3rd trimester fetus except development.

Being less developed doesn't make you less human.

Well my cousin was abused and neglected, and she wishes she were dead. Sure, you're fine, I mean you appreciate your life and you're happy to be here, but she just doesn't/isn't. Her mom had tons of illegitimate kids and she just dumped them all. That woman needed to be sterilized...but that's clearly a different issue.

Also, I don't know why you put "right" in quotes. Your mother and any other woman...does have the right to choose. You can dislike abortion, but it is going to happen whether people like it or not. Making it illegal would just make it more dangerous.
 
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sisterofmercy
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dexeded
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Fredikins said:
Also, I don't know why you put "right" in quotes. Your mother and any other woman...does have the right to choose. You can dislike abortion, but it is going to happen whether people like it or not. Making it illegal would just make it more dangerous.

I put right in quotes because it isn't a right to decide whether a person lives or dies. It is not an innate human right to kill someone else. People can choose to pretend that a fetus isn't a human being just so they feel better about it, but the reality is that it IS a human, and it DOES deserve to live, whether the woman wants it or not. She should have been responsible enough to make sure she didn't get pregnant.

It's unfortunate about your cousin. I appreciate my life now, sure. But just a year ago, I was hospitalized for actually trying to commit suicide. I'm not a mentally sound person when it comes to loving myself and I don't forgive my "parents" for what they did to me. But my experience has taught me a lot. And my children, that I chose NOT to abort, are the ones that keep me going every day.
 
I put right in quotes because it isn't a right to decide whether a person lives or dies. It is not an innate human right to kill someone else. People can choose to pretend that a fetus isn't a human being just so they feel better about it, but the reality is that it IS a human, and it DOES deserve to live, whether the woman wants it or not. She should have been responsible enough to make sure she didn't get pregnant.

It's unfortunate about your cousin. I appreciate my life now, sure. But just a year ago, I was hospitalized for actually trying to commit suicide. I'm not a mentally sound person when it comes to loving myself and I don't forgive my "parents" for what they did to me. But my experience has taught me a lot. And my children, that I chose NOT to abort, are the ones that keep me going every day.

Well that's good for you and I'm glad you're doing well. Again, I wouldn't choose to have one because I constantly think, "What if?" I just feel as if it isn't my business how someone chooses to handle a personal situation. I don't believe that abortion should be used as birth control but some people are just...crap parents. Ugh. The same cousin decided to keep her kid and while he is sweet and adorable, she is so incompetent. I'm glad she chose to keep him...but at the same time, I would have understood if she hadn't. Some people can't fathom how someone could just...kill their child, but I can. To me, abortion just isn't the same as murder. But this is coming from someone who gives just about anyone the benefit of the doubt, even if I don't condone the action or decision myself.
 
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EvilWillow
We will just have to agree to disagree :)
I personally wouldn't have an abortion and I feel that there are a lot of different ways a woman can prevent from getting pregnant. It infuriates me when someone looks at abortion as another option to use as "birth control". They are willing to spend money on a medical procedure to end something they could of easily prevented. However, I do believe a woman has a right to choose wether or not to go through with it. Especially those woman who were victims of rape and incest.
 
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Selfless705
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A lot has been written here since I went to bed yesterday, that’s the joy of time zones. I haven’t had time to thoroughly read all of the thread, but from what I have read there seems to be some misunderstandings about the nuts and bolts of conception that I would like to address. When people are using biological arguments to support one side or the other, I think it is important to have the correct facts in the thread.

For conception – or fertilization – to happen, first of all we need two things: A mature egg cell must be released from the ovary, and sperm must enter the vagina and further on the uterus and ovary where the egg still is. Here, one sperm cell fuses with the egg, creating what we call a zygote. At this point, the egg is fertilized, but it is not implanted in the wall of the uterus. Some 24 hours after fertilization, the zygote starts dividing, first into two identical cells, then four, then eight, then sixteen. At this point, all the cells – that we now can call the embryo - are identical stem cells that will later be the basis for specialized body cells. You can say that the stem cells carry the potential of developing into all kinds of cells.

A week’s time after the fusing of egg and sperm, the embryo enters the uterus wall, it implants. If implantation does not happen, for some reason or another, the embryo will be flushed out during the next period. During the first few weeks of the pregnancy, the cells of the embryo are so much alike that it can split in two, giving what we know as identical twins. By four weeks, the rudiments of several organs are in place, including the heart. By eight weeks, we call it a fetus, and an early form of all organs are there.
There is one 100% safe way of avoiding a pregnancy: Abstaining from copulation. Contraceptives lessen the chance of pregnancy dramatically, but there are none that have a 100% guarantee against fertilization. Even if contraceptive pills have a less than 1% failure rate, 1% of the female, sexually active population using “The Pill” is potentially a lot of pregnancies. And as far as I recall, some contraception pills hinder implantation, not fertilization. If life begins at fertilization, are these then early abortions?

Someone mentioned abortions being unnatural. As I was walking to my train this morning, I realized that this is a question of linguistics. An abortion is a terminated pregnancy. Some pregnancies are terminated by human intervention, be it chemical or surgical. Some pregnancies are aborted naturally, due to the embryo or fetus having malfunctions rendering it unviable, or due to fatal incompatibilities between the mother and the fetus. In my language, the distinction between these is given by the definitions “spontaneous abortion” and “provoked abortion”. In English, on the other hand, the words are, as far as I can see, “abortion” and “miscarriage”. I am a bit fascinated by that, because to me the word “miscarry” seems to lie blame on the mother – it is as if she has proven unable to carry the fetus properly. That way, the language places guilt on the woman even for events entirely outside her control. About 1/3 of all pregnancies end in a spontaneous abortion, often before the woman is even aware of the pregnancy.

A poem that springs to my mind when this topic comes up, is Bertolt Brecht's "Concerning the Infanticide, Marie Farrar". If you are not familiar with this poem, I firmly suggest you give it a moment of your time. He calls for something we should all find it in us to give:
You, too, I beg you, check your wrath and scorn
For man needs help from every creature born.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0O5J6bMzY"]For those who prefer sound and video to reading poetry, this piece was amazing.[/ame]
 
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kittenpoker
very informative post. thank you!!
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dexeded
lol, my second bio lesson on the same topic of the day
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dj651
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VisionGirl
VisionGirl
Thank you for this entire post.
I am definitely pro choice. I have so much to say but I just cant find the words, and even if I do, I'm sure someone more articulate will just rip me to shreds.
 
I'm pro choice, I think that it should be up to the person to decide what they do with their pregnancy. Adoption is a better choice, but If the person doesn't want to go through the pregnancy and birth, I don't think they should be forced to.

And if you don't have a uterus you don't have an opinion.

I really dislike that opinion, since I can't think of a single 'Man' issue that that people say, no penis no opinion. I don't see why guys can't have an opinion to.
If it were me I'd like to be considered in a decision for abortion, but I think the reason I really dislike that opinion is that I know I'd side with whatever the person decides to do, whereas other might try and force their girlfriend/wife to keep the baby... So I guess I do get why in general that should be how people think of it, but just personally I know I'd like to be part of the decision.
 
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Selfless705
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arabella
Circumcision? I personally disagree that as a penis haver you have no right to an opinion though. Everyone has opinions :)
I really dislike that opinion, since I can't think of a single 'Man' issue that that people say, no penis no opinion. I don't see why guys can't have an opinion to.

If it were me I'd like to be considered in a decision for abortion, but I think the reason I really dislike that opinion is that I know I'd side with whatever the person decides to do, whereas other might try and force their girlfriend/wife to keep the baby... So I guess I do get why in general that should be how people think of it, but just personally I know I'd like to be part of the decision.

A man is never going to be in the situation where they have to give over their body for nine months to something they dont want. They dont have to go through the hormones, the labor, the pain. So why should men be voting on whether or not women can have abortions when its not something they themselves ever have to consider?

If youre the father then yes the mother should talk about it with you and the father can express his wishes, his opinion. But ultimately it is her decision.

But as for an opinion on abortion in general, no I dont think men should have an opinion.
 
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Mr Giles
If its a womans decision to not have the baby, is it then also a mans decision not to pay child support if she has the baby?
I am gonna agree that it does all depend on individual circumstances, but I think the abortion option is too easy for people these days, it's no longer seen as a big thing amongst many people these days. It's just something that happens for a lot of people, granted not very nice people, but still.

I am against abortion to a certain extent, ever since I was made to watch a video called the silent scream, which I know is largely propaganda, but it did have an effect on me. I think adoption is the right thing to do in most (not all) circumstances of unwanted pregnancy.
 
A man is never going to be in the situation where they have to give over their body for nine months to something they dont want. They dont have to go through the hormones, the labor, the pain. So why should men be voting on whether or not women can have abortions when its not something they themselves ever have to consider?

If youre the father then yes the mother should talk about it with you and the father can express his wishes, his opinion. But ultimately it is her decision.

But as for an opinion on abortion in general, no I dont think men should have an opinion.


Well I have an opinion, and if that gets disrespected or just plain rejected because I am a man, thats just ludricous.

Just because you don't experience something, doesnt mean that you shouldnt have an opinion on the morality of it. There is this thing called empathy, and men can do it just as much as woman who have never had a child.
 
Xin Rong
Xin Rong
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PassionBecoming
PassionBecoming
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Living Dead Boy
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Well I have an opinion, and if that gets disrespected or just plain rejected because I am a man, thats just ludricous.

Just because you don't experience something, doesnt mean that you shouldnt have an opinion on the morality of it. There is this thing called empathy, and men can do it just as much as woman who have never had a child.

Its not ludicrous, its not ignorant, people really need to choose their words more carefully you dont have to agree with my opinion but dont call me ludicrous and ignorant for thinking it.

A man cant be in that situation its not about morality, its about men controlling women. You will never have to face that decision, to be pregnant and scared. You can think abortion is wrong but dont tel ma woman what do with her body. Unless you have a uterus unless you can be in that situation you shouldnt be telling us how to run our bodies.
 
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sisterofmercy
I assume you're not including male doctors in this though? I'd think they'd have some sway as they're supposed to be objective
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Cast No Shadow
I don't want to neg rep you again, but calling an opinion ignorant, is different to calling a person ignorant. Someone also said they disliked your opinion, however I didn't see you take that to mean they disliked you?
Its not ludicrous, its not ignorant, people really need to choose their words more carefully you dont have to agree with my opinion but dont call me ludicrous and ignorant for thinking it.

A man cant be in that situation its not about morality, its about men controlling women. You will never have to face that decision, to be pregnant and scared. You can think abortion is wrong but dont tel ma woman what do with her body. Unless you have a uterus unless you can be in that situation you shouldnt be telling us how to run our bodies.

My view is an opinion, not a command. Men can have opinions without wanting to control women. An opinion is a thought, and as you said, we can have one. No-one should express an opinion as a universal law, or a command. Not women, nor men on any situation. But everyone has the right to express them.
 
SlayerFest
SlayerFest
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My view is an opinion, not a command. Men can have opinions without wanting to control women. An opinion is a thought, and as you said, we can have one. No-one should express an opinion as a universal law, or a command. Not women, nor men on any situation. But everyone has the right to express them.

Well I dont agree. I dont think a man should have an opinion its not their body. If they have an opinion keep it to themselves.
 
BEG, I think the fathers have a moral right to have their opinions heard, but not the right to make or veto the actual decision.

Here are those links you were looking for:

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-Unintended-Pregnancy-US.html
(Guttmacher was President of Planned Parenthood so I don't think the stats are prolife slanted)

Here's an easier to read article as well: http://www.nytimes.com/1989/10/13/us/rape-and-incest-just-1-of-all-abortions.html

I would like to add that since 64-81% of abortions are paid for by public funding (via stats in the first link), I DO have a say in the choice to abort or not and will until all abortions are privately funded. That was a general statement, not directed at miromurr.
 
Professor Walsh
Professor Walsh
Thanks. (And I teach science, so don't worry about sending me the difficult stuff.)
I think everyone, regardless of gender, has a right to his or her own opinion on any matter under the sun. And I have the choice to consider or disregard that person's opinion as I wish. An opinion is not a mandate, it's just and opinion. I certainly have opinions about things that do not directly impact me. It doesn't bother me at all if a non-uterus haver is pro-life or pro-choice any more than I think it should bother him that as a non-penis haver I still have an opinion on circumcision...however he may disregard my opinion of he chooses but we both still have a right to have and share our opinions, and disagree if desired.
 
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Harley
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Living Dead Boy
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SlayerFest
SlayerFest
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Black Eye Guy
Black Eye Guy
Oh yes circumcision would be one!
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dexeded
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.

PLUS I hate that in the UK a baby can be aborted at 24 weeks, where babies have been born premature on so many occasions younger than that, and survived.

From the department of health (2010)

Abortions where gestation has exceeded its twenty-fourth week account for less than 0.1% of the total. There were 147 such abortions in 2010

There are abortions after the 24 weeks.

For abortions at 22 weeks or beyond, feticide is recommended prior to the evacuation of
the uterus to stop the fetal heart. In 2010, of the 1,173 abortions performed at 22 weeks
and over, 70% were reported as preceded by a feticide and a further 25% were
performed by a method whereby the fetal heart is stopped as part of the procedure. 2%
of abortions at 22 weeks or beyond were confirmed as having no feticide. For the
remaining 3%, at the time of publication, we had not been able to confirm whether feticide
had been performed.
 
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I think the whole "no uterus no opinion" argument is extremely ignorant.

Oh come on - if boys had to carry babies in their testicles I don't think this would be a debate

The truth is when a woman gives birth she is on the verge of death - it wreaks havoc on her body. A man will never be put in that situation and until he does he can't make a fair assesment. In the US last year the maternal mortality rate was 6 in 100k but if you live in say Uganda that goes up to over 500 in 100k. Modern medicine including access to safe abortion is the reason why the mortality rate is so low in the US. And no woman goes into an abortion clinic like shes picking up a shake at McDonalds or giving blood - it's always a difficult decision.
 
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xfivebyfive
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Making adoption affordable has nothing to do with abortion. I'm all for that. I would love all the kids out there with no families to have families.

I brought up my point because you said abortion should be an option due to all of the "unwanted" children in the world. There are couples everywhere that would do anything to to adopt a child; it just isn't always attainable.

That doesn't mean if I dont want to have a child I should be forced to. No one should tell me what to do with my body. If someone is raped and impregnated why should they then have no control over their own body again! They had no choice in being raped and now they have no choice in whether they give birth?? Every woman should have the right to choose and shouldn't be judged for it. It's not your body, its not your decision. Make the decision for you own body and if you dont want to have one dont, but every woman should have the right to choose.

When you get pregnant, whether by choice or accident, your body is no longer just your body. That baby might be dependent on you to continue living, but he/she is a separate entity living inside of you. No one ever gets to decide completely what to do with their bodies: you can't sell your kidney, you can't walk into a doctor's office and tell them to chop your arm off. Just because the baby is in your body doesn't mean you get to decide whether he/she lives or dies. There's another human being in there.

I acknowledge that in the case of rape, accepting the pregnancy would be most difficult. It would be a true sacrifice. My point is that no matter how that baby came to be, he belongs to you. Rape is an ultimate violation; it leaves physical and emotional scars. Abortion isn't going to make those issues go away, and most likely will compound them and add to the woman's suffering. I highly doubt that there are a large percentage of women who have had abortions that walk away 100% emotionally unscathed from the experience.

Yes the baby would be the fathers as well but he doesn't have to carry it for nine months. So no its not his decision.

He may not have to carry the baby, but he helped make the baby. It takes two to tango, as they say. Going along that lines, after a child is born the woman could say, "I carried the baby, therefore the baby is mine and I get sole decision making rights and you (the father) get no input." Or on the flipside, the father could say, "Hey, you carried the baby, you have all the responsibility and I don't have to do anything." That argument goes both ways.

A baby needs both sperm and an egg to be formed; you cannot have one without the other. Therefore, the father is an integral part in that baby's life from the moment of conception. It would be extremely selfish and hurtful for the mother to disregard the opinions and wishes of the man she made a baby with.

But my point with that statement was not if youre in the situation but rather all the male politicians and male members of society that think they can pass laws on a womans body. So I 100% believe that if you do not have a uterus you dont get an opinion on this. A man will never have to face that situation so why should they get a say?

The thing people forget when they take this route is that our politicians were voted in by the majority of constituents. They get voted in because the majority of people approve and support what they stand for and the policies they put in place. Most politicians are male, so it does seem odd that they would be the ones speaking about abortion (and I do believe more women should be involved in politics, but unfortunately for whatever reason that change has been slow coming.) but they are speaking for their constituents and really doing what they were voted into office to do. It might be a man up there making these policies and who the public sees talking, but every politician represents both males and females.

---------- Post added at 11:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 AM ----------

The truth is when a woman gives birth she is on the verge of death - it wreaks havoc on her body. A man will never be put in that situation and until he does he can't make a fair assesment. In the US last year the maternal mortality rate was 6 in 100k but if you live in say Uganda that goes up to over 500 in 100k. Modern medicine including access to safe abortion is the reason why the mortality rate is so low in the US. And no woman goes into an abortion clinic like shes picking up a shake at McDonalds or giving blood - it's always a difficult decision.

Not true. People so easily forget that a woman's body is designed to give birth. That's the whole point. Sex is scientifically designed for procreation and when you have sex and make a baby, that means your bodies are functioning correctly.

Fertility and babies are not diseases - they are proof that your body is healthy and functioning normally.

Also, you are not always on the verge of death when giving birth. My first child was an insanely difficult birth - it was horrible and painful and lasted a very long time, but my life and his were never in danger. My second baby basically fell out, as I'm guessing the one I am carrying right now will as well. Are pregnancy, labor, and delivery rough on the body? Heck, yes, but they are also what women are designed to do.
 
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arabella
"The second one basically fell out" lol... Is it bad that I'm sort of hoping for that to happen with this pregnancy?
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EvilWillow
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