Abortion

[Black Eye Guy]

BEG, I think the fathers have a moral right to have their opinions heard, but not the right to make or veto the actual decision.

Yeah exactly, that how I was trying to phrase my thought on it, but yeah I think if it were to happen to me being the father, I'd like to be asked my opinion, but the guys opinion can't really matter, it is there baby to, which is why I think it would be nice to be asked, but I know I'd agree with whatever decision was made, whereas others might not, so it's easier not to tell them.

So the only reason I think the opinion of the guy should matter is cuz personally I know how I'd react.

A man is never going to be in the situation where they have to give over their body for nine months to something they dont want. They dont have to go through the hormones, the labor, the pain. So why should men be voting on whether or not women can have abortions when its not something they themselves ever have to consider?

If youre the father then yes the mother should talk about it with you and the father can express his wishes, his opinion. But ultimately it is her decision.

But as for an opinion on abortion in general, no I dont think men should have an opinion.

I do understand that, and I would have a problem with an all male panel deciding the laws on abortion, that is a bit stupid.

I was meaning more in the actual situation of the guy and the girl having the baby, I'd like to be asked my opinion.

But on the other side, laws and rules or whatever are decided by a group of people who may not go through the circumstances they are deciding the rules for, so that could be applied to anything.

 

[Cast No Shadow]

Oh come on - if boys had to carry babies in their testicles I don't think this would be a debate

The truth is when a woman gives birth she is on the verge of death - it wreaks havoc on her body. A man will never be put in that situation and until he does he can't make a fair assesment. In the US last year the maternal mortality rate was 6 in 100k but if you live in say Uganda that goes up to over 500 in 100k. Modern medicine including access to safe abortion is the reason why the mortality rate is so low in the US. And no woman goes into an abortion clinic like shes picking up a shake at McDonalds or giving blood - it's always a difficult decision.

Absolutely nothing you have said has made me feel like men shouldn't have an opinion about abortion.

I agree with what [MENTION=6330]arabella[/MENTION] said before,

I think everyone, regardless of gender, has a right to his or her own opinion on any matter under the sun.

Perhaps he can't make a completely fair assessment, but can anyone, if they're not the one who is pregnant? Does that mean they should have the option of having an opinion taken away from them?

 

[strawberryeve]

Not true. People so easily forget that a woman's body is designed to give birth. That's the whole point. Sex is scientifically designed for procreation and when you have sex and make a baby, that means your bodies are functioning correctly.

Fertility and babies are not diseases - they are proof that your body is healthy and functioning normally.

Also, you are not always on the verge of death when giving birth. My first child was an insanely difficult birth - it was horrible and painful and lasted a very long time, but my life and his were never in danger. My second baby basically fell out, as I'm guessing the one I am carrying right now will as well. Are pregnancy, labor, and delivery rough on the body? Heck, yes, but they are also what women are designed to do.

Yes women were made to birth babies - the majority - but my statistics are real. Women die giving birth. Its a fact. And yes, it does crazy things to your body, you're lucky you don't live in Uganda.

The human body was made to run - it doesn't mean people don't have heart attacks.

You make some interesting points about the father - if more men took responsibility for their gonads then there would be less abortions. For some reason it falls on the mother to put her life in danger and yes, an abortion is safer than labor. It's just a fact of medicine.

IMO the bottom line is the only person who should decide is the person whose body it is. Making a woman carry a child by law is just as bad as rape, or worse because your body is being violated by every stranger who supports that law made you give up your body.

Because thats what rape is: when someone violates you and takes away your humanity. If I was pregnant I wouldn't cease to be myself.

---------- Post added at 10:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 AM ----------

I agree with what [MENTION=6330]arabella[/MENTION] said before,

Perhaps he can't make a completely fair assessment, but can anyone, if they're not the one who is pregnant? Does that mean that should have the option of having an opinion taken away from them?

This is what I was trying to say - of course men can have opinions - I hope they do. But no one can make a fair assessment if they're not the one who is pregnant. I think that is the basis of being pro-choice.

 

[EvilWillow]

And as far as I recall, some contraception pills hinder implantation, not fertilization. If life begins at fertilization, are these then early abortions?

Yes.

Someone mentioned abortions being unnatural. As I was walking to my train this morning, I realized that this is a question of linguistics. An abortion is a terminated pregnancy. Some pregnancies are terminated by human intervention, be it chemical or surgical. Some pregnancies are aborted naturally, due to the embryo or fetus having malfunctions rendering it unviable, or due to fatal incompatibilities between the mother and the fetus. In my language, the distinction between these is given by the definitions "spontaneous abortion" and "provoked abortion". In English, on the other hand, the words are, as far as I can see, "abortion" and "miscarriage". I am a bit fascinated by that, because to me the word "miscarry" seems to lie blame on the mother "“ it is as if she has proven unable to carry the fetus properly. That way, the language places guilt on the woman even for events entirely outside her control. About 1/3 of all pregnancies end in a spontaneous abortion, often before the woman is even aware of the pregnancy.

A miscarriage is something that your body does, and it's sometimes it's called a "spontaneous abortion". This is completely natural and they can't explain why it happens. I know all about these, as I have had one. But it is in no way the same or comparable to having your insides ripped just so you can go out and party without having to get a babysitter.

A week's time after the fusing of egg and sperm, the embryo enters the uterus wall, it implants. If implantation does not happen, for some reason or another, the embryo will be flushed out during the next period. During the first few weeks of the pregnancy, the cells of the embryo are so much alike that it can split in two, giving what we know as identical twins. By four weeks, the rudiments of several organs are in place, including the heart. By eight weeks, we call it a fetus, and an early form of all organs are there.
There is one 100% safe way of avoiding a pregnancy: Abstaining from copulation. Contraceptives lessen the chance of pregnancy dramatically, but there are none that have a 100% guarantee against fertilization. Even if contraceptive pills have a less than 1% failure rate, 1% of the female, sexually active population using "The Pill" is potentially a lot of pregnancies.

We all take the risk of getting pregnant when we have sex. Abortion is just another way of not taking responsibility for your actions and making an innocent child pay for it.

Yes women were made to birth babies - the majority - but my statistics are real. Women die giving birth. Its a fact. And yes, it does crazy things to your body, you're lucky you don't live in Uganda.

Women have been having babies since the beginning of time. Our bodies aren't perfect sometimes, and we need the help of medicine for it to happen, but the VAST majority of labor is completely safe and complication free. Saying that 6 out of 100k women died from complications is no way near enough of a good statistic to justify murder.

If a woman has a problem with having to carry a baby for 9 months that she made (the baby didn't ask to be there), then she can always feel free to not have sex. I mean, that's the whole point of sex anyways. 😉

 

[Cast No Shadow]

[MENTION=11641]EvilWillow[/MENTION]...are you trying to say that me taking the contraceptive pill is anything to do with abortion? Or am I misunderstanding?

 

[EvilWillow]

[MENTION=11641]EvilWillow[/MENTION]...are you trying to say that me taking the contraceptive pill is anything to do with abortion? Or am I misunderstanding?

No sweetie. I'm saying some of the birth control pills are abortifacient. But at the implantation stage, the human life is not sentient, and not even an actual baby yet. Which doesn't bother me.

 

[arabella]

I guess my fundamental disagreement is that I do not believe abortion of an embryo or fetus that is not independently viable to be murder. Obviously that is just my opinion and I have a complete understanding of fetal development which does not change my belief. I certainly don't believe that using birth control is murder nor do I think sex is purely for reproductive purposes... It's a marriage perk that I very much enjoy. So, I agree to disagree with you but I have to say that I am so thankful that, while I hope to never be in a position to make the choice, I'm SO grateful that it is my choice to make. 🙂

 

[EvilWillow]

I guess my fundamental disagreement is that I do not believe abortion of an embryo or fetus that is not independently viable to be murder. Obviously that is just my opinion and I have a complete understanding of fetal development which does not change my belief. I certainly don't believe that using birth control is murder nor do I think sex is purely for reproductive purposes... It's a marriage perk that I very much enjoy. So, I agree to disagree with you but I have to say that I am so thankful that, while I hope to never be in a position to make the choice, I'm SO grateful that it is my choice to make. 🙂

Sex is not just for reproductive purposes, but that is the main purpose of it. I never said it wasn't okay to enjoy doing it, either. I simply stated that if a woman doesn't want a baby, then she probably should abstain from it because there is no guarantee that she will not get pregnant unless she has a tubal ligation. I was exaggerating a little bit in order to illustrate that women need to be responsible for their actions.

 

[strawberryeve]

Women have been having babies since the beginning of time. Our bodies aren't perfect sometimes, and we need the help of medicine for it to happen, but the VAST majority of labor is completely safe and complication free. Saying that 6 out of 100k women died from complications is no way near enough of a good statistic to justify murder.

If a woman has a problem with having to carry a baby for 9 months that she made (the baby didn't ask to be there), then she can always feel free to not have sex. I mean, that's the whole point of sex anyways. 😉

This supposes: that the 30,000 women who died giving birth last year in the United States alone are the only women dying in the world from giving birth. That all women are educated about sex before the age of fertility and therefore know sex leads to pregnancy. It also supposes women always have control over when they have sex and that all marital sex is consensual. It also supposes that abortion is murder. It also supposes that people only have sex to make children.

The truth is if a woman wants an abortion - shes gonna get it whether it's legal or not.

 

[arabella]

Why do I have to have my "tubes tied" or not have sex with my poor husband to avoid getting pregnant again?! Haha! Good thing I don't think life begins a conception or that it is my sole responsibility to prevent pregnancy. I'm totally ok with implantation preventing birth control and if anybody has surgery to prevent pregnancy, it'd probably be the hubby since that procedure (as I understand it) is less risky.

 

[PassionBecoming]

... nor do I think sex is purely for reproductive purposes... It's a marriage perk that I very much enjoy.

It isn't purely for procreation, but that is what it is made for. That is it's "purpose". Which is not to say that it isn't fun and enjoyable even when not baby-making. 🙂

 

[EvilWillow]

Why do I have to have my "tubes tied" or not have sex with my poor husband to avoid getting pregnant again?! Haha! Good thing I don't think life begins a conception or that it is my sole responsibility to prevent pregnancy. I'm totally ok with implantation preventing birth control and if anybody has surgery to prevent pregnancy, it'd probably be the hubby since that procedure (as I understand it) is less risky.

You don't have to do those things to avoid getting pregnant. I'm just stating that if women are so hell bent on not getting pregnant, then that's there only option that is 100% guaranteed. Abortion is not a form of birth control, and it's disgusting to use it as such. If you absolutely do not want to be accountable for having sex, which can mean pregnancy, then be better be damn sure that you are doing everything you can for it not to happen, instead of just relying on abortion as an option.

 

[Cast No Shadow]

You don't have to do those things to avoid getting pregnant. I'm just stating that if women are so hell bent on not getting pregnant, then that's there only option that is 100% guaranteed. Abortion is not a form of birth control, and it's disgusting to use it as such. If you absolutely do not want to be accountable for having sex, which can mean pregnancy, then be better be damn sure that you are doing everything you can for it not to happen, instead of just relying on abortion as an option.

I'm super tired, and therefore not particularly intelligent today (hence my previous comment) but I think you can still have sex for pleasure, and be pretty darn sure you're not gonna get pregnant. I don't want a child anytime soon, and I assume therefore I won't get pregnant until I do...however that's not gonna stop me having sex. Birth control can work wonders 😀

I'm also gonna go and say that I'm pretty much 100% certain that no one here would use abortion as a form of contraception, rather us pro-lifers would see it as a last resort measure.

 

[arabella]

[MENTION=11641]EvilWillow[/MENTION], did I imply that most women use abortion as birth control? Because I don't believe that to be true...

 

[EvilWillow]

[MENTION=6330]arabella[/MENTION] agrees: I agree that abortion shouldnt be used as a method of birth control... But you stated above that some birth control is abortion. So, bc abortion is ok but abortion as birth control is not?

I said some BC is abortifacient, but since the fetus is not sentient, nor does it have a heartbeat at the time of implantation, I don't consider it murder.

 

[PassionBecoming]

This supposes: that the 30,000 women who died giving birth last year in the United States alone are the only women dying in the world from giving birth. That all women are educated about sex before the age of fertility and therefore know sex leads to pregnancy. It also supposes women always have control over when they have sex and that all marital sex is consensual. It also supposes that abortion is murder. It also supposes that people only have sex to make children.

Then wouldn't the solution to these problems be to promote better sex education, donations to organizations that provide OB/GYN services to undeveloped countries, and support governments that fight against/don't allow forced marriages, child prostitution, etc.? Not promoting abortion. Abortions don't solve that problem, it simply reacts to a problem in a negative way.

Also, yes, some women die in child birth, but not all. Some people have aneurysms, heart attacks, strokes, and a number of other sudden medical issues that could kill them. Does that mean you remove your brain? Your heart? No. A baby is not an organ that causes problems. There are some women who die in childbirth, but generally it isn't the child's fault. There may have been a pre-existing condition the doctor missed, the woman's body might not be built for it, etc. It doesn't matter - that isn't the child's fault.

Speaking specifically about undeveloped countries, if they don't have quality OB services I highly doubt that abortions are all that safe, either.

 

[arabella]

I said some BC is abortifacient, but since the fetus is not sentient, nor does it have a heartbeat at the time of implantation, I don't consider it murder.

So "aborting" pre-heartbeat is ok? How is that different than saying aborting pre-viability is ok? I don't understand that logic as neither can survive but this could just come down to my not seeing abortion of a non-viable fetus as murder.

 

[PassionBecoming]

[MENTION=6330]arabella[/MENTION]:

I just don't find the "if you don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex" argument compelling as a married woman.

That's just making a point that, as [MENTION=11641]EvilWillow[/MENTION] said, if you do not want to get pregnant, the only 100% effective way of doing that is not having sex. Obviously that isn't going to work in a marriage. And yes, some forms of birth control do cause abortions (and that is medically speaking).

 

[Black Eye Guy]

You don't have to do those things to avoid getting pregnant. I'm just stating that if women are so hell bent on not getting pregnant, then that's there only option that is 100% guaranteed. Abortion is not a form of birth control, and it's disgusting to use it as such. If you absolutely do not want to be accountable for having sex, which can mean pregnancy, then be better be damn sure that you are doing everything you can for it not to happen, instead of just relying on abortion as an option.

I don't think people think of abortion as a form of birth control. Maybe I'm wrong but I dont think there is a whole lot of people who say "lets not use a condom, I'll get an abortion in a few weeks" - abortion is an option when you become pregnant and aren't ready for it, or aren't ready to give your body over to to a baby for 9 months.

I also don't think the main reason for sex is reproductive any more, the main reason is pleasure and eventually when the couple is ready it's for reproduction. But contraception is only 99.9% effective and I don't think making abortion illegal to make people deal with something their not ready to deal with is the right thing to do.

 

[EvilWillow]

So "aborting" pre-heartbeat is ok? How is that different than saying aborting pre-viability is ok? I don't understand that logic as neither can survive but this could just come down to my not seeing abortion of a non-viable fetus as murder.

It's not okay for me. I don't use birth control pills. I use natural family planning, in which I was educated to know when I can and cannot get pregnant, and abstain during the times I can.

I'm not going to judge someone for using a BC pill that may or may not allow the egg to implant in the uterus. Because at that point, it's a cluster of cells that are dividing over and over. It still potentially a human being, but not yet.


I don't understand the whole "viable" and "non-viable" argument. Yes, the baby is dependent on the mother and would die without her support after a certain number of weeks (25 I believe). But a baby would never be able to live on its own without the mother's help, through adolescence even. So does that mean it's acceptable to suffocate a newborn because it won't be able to live without its mother, and therefore, not really human?