Actors Bashing Joss

[atticus]

Yes there is.
Seems to be the unwritten rule of fandom.

I believe its something like:
As an actor involved in anything Whedon you should praise him for giving you work and believe the character was amazing.
Also you must spend the rest of your life committed to loving this character and follow every change with baited breath and be knowledgable to answer all and any questions as Con.

Least I am sure thats how its written in the Holy Bible of Joss.

Nope bitch about the man all you want, if you don't like the character, that's fair. But do it to his face, and if he doesn't agree, deal with it. He's your boss. Don't go on tv, do conventions and do magazine interviews, and make it a public insult. And talk dis-respectfully about him. That's just tacky. 🙂

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Nope bitch about the man all you want, if you don't like the character, that's fair. But do it to his face, and if he doesn't agree, deal with it. He's your boss. Don't go on tv, do conventions and do magazine interviews, and make it a public insult. And talk dis-respectfully about him. That's just tacky. 🙂

You're assuming, in that comment, that he didn't talk it out with Joss.

He has made these comments saying he went to Joss with ideas and was pretty much told to 'do one'.

Joss has never said that VK is lying so we have to assume he is telling the truth because its in the public domain.

When it comes an interview should he lie?
Would you as a fan like to read 'Oh, my time was great, I learned so much' if you knew it to be false?
Or would you prefer him to say 'I don't want to talk about it' which is as good as admitting you have a problem BUT not actually saying anything.

I think VK should be commended for speaking what he felt and believes.
I would rather that than listen to the endless slew of sycophants that generally sniff Joss' farts and tell him they smell like daisies covered in chocolate.

 

[atticus]

You're assuming, in that comment, that he didn't talk it out with Joss.

He has made these comments saying he went to Joss with ideas and was pretty much told to 'do one'.

Joss has never said that VK is lying so we have to assume he is telling the truth because its in the public domain.

When it comes an interview should he lie?
Would you as a fan like to read 'Oh, my time was great, I learned so much' if you knew it to be false?
Or would you prefer him to say 'I don't want to talk about it' which is as good as admitting you have a problem BUT not actually saying anything.

I think VK should be commended for speaking what he felt and believes.
I would rather that than listen to the endless slew of sycophants that generally sniff Joss' farts and tell him they smell like daisies covered in chocolate.

Well, i think if Joss is respectful of his actors in interviews, which i have only ever heard him being, then yes, they should be in return. If Joss say's, he only brought stupid ideas to the table, so i shot him down, then yeah, it's a free for all, say what you want. But until he does make it a public insult, be thankful that he allowed you to act, which is your chosen profession. It might not be to your rules, or liking, but it's what you signed on for.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Well, i think if Joss is respectful of his actors in interviews, which i have only ever heard him being, then yes, they should be in return. If Joss say's, he only brought stupid ideas to the table, so i shot him down, then yeah, it's a free for all, say what you want. But until he does make it a public insult, be thankful that he allowed you to act, which is your chosen profession. It might not be to your rules, or liking, but it's what you signed on for.

No, he signed on to work on a project.
He didn't sign on to not say what he felt, be untrue to himself.

I have more respect for VK then I did before I read this thread.

Normally it takes someone of high standing to be so honest.

And lets not forget, Joss had few kind words for Donald Sutherland so we know he is capable.

 

[atticus]

I guess we just differ on the boss/employee relationship. And it is not aimed at only VC, but at any Buffy/ Angel actor, who does it. I find it very dis-respectful. And i am not a Joss worshiper, as it may seem, i don't agree on how he talks about other people. He blamed Halle Berry for the delivery of his "toad struck by lightning line" in X-Men. I just think it was crap any way you delivered it. And he seemed to blame the company in charge of WonderWoman, for not getting his vision, to me it just seemed like it took him forever to write the script. And yes, i feel he should have been quiet in these instances. But i guess that's just me, taking it into the public/fan realm is not something i agree with.

 

[JenniferAlice]

And lets not forget, Joss had few kind words for Donald Sutherland so we know he is capable.

What was said about old man Sutherland??

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

What was said about old man Sutherland??

O: How closely were you involved with the making of the Buffy movie?

JW: I had major involvement. I was there almost all the way through shooting. I pretty much eventually threw up my hands because I could not be around Donald Sutherland any longer. It didn't turn out to be the movie that I had written. They never do, but that was my first lesson in that. Not that the movie is without merit, but I just watched a lot of stupid wannabe-star behavior and a director with a different vision than mine"”which was her right, it was her movie"”but it was still frustrating. Eventually, I was like, "I need to be away from here."

O: Was it a personality conflict between you and Sutherland, or was he just not what you'd envisioned in that role?

JW: No, no, he was just a prick. The thing is, people always make fun of Rutger Hauer [for his Buffy role]. Even though he was big and silly and looked kind of goofy in the movie, I have to give him credit, because he was there. He was into it. Whereas Donald was just... He would rewrite all his dialogue, and the director would let him. He can't write"”he's not a writer"”so the dialogue would not make sense. And he had a very bad attitude. He was incredibly rude to the director, he was rude to everyone around him, he was just a real pain. And to see him destroying my stuff... Some people didn't notice. Some people liked him in the movie. Because he's Donald Sutherland. He's a great actor. He can read the phone book, and I'm interested. But the thing is, he acts well enough that you didn't notice, with his little rewrites, and his little ideas about what his character should do, that he was actually destroying the movie more than Rutger was. So I got out of there. I had to run away.

Is he right or wrong, I don't particularly care, my point is this proves that he doesn't have an issue saying what he thinks about an actor who works for him.

In fact the bitterness that comes through in this interview kind of backs up VK more.

It must hurt Whedon something chronic that films like this, Waterworld and Alien: Resurrection as that bad and that he was on script duty with little to no say once it left his hands that when an actor, any actor, came to him with ideas he shot them down because he is the big 'I am'.

He obviously has an ego problem.

Atticus I agree on the stuff where you have issue with Whedon, especially that Storm line but I don't feel that he deserves respect just for giving someone a job, it should be earned and if VK didn't feel he earned it, then why shouldn't he say what he feels?

 

[JenniferAlice]

I've always thought of Joss to be a bit egotistical..

I love his shows, I love the work he does, but I think MAYBE he is kind of a snob when it comes to input from other people, he's maybe quite selfish about his projects? But maybe there's a reason for it.

 

[Atren]

There is always a reason, but you might not like it. So many of you jump on actors for saying what they feel. Would you prefer lies? Do you prefer to build illusion where everyone agrees with everyone, all actors are super nice and so on? Geez, good that they thought so. It also shows they did care for their character.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I thought Kartheiser did a great job with Connor, he seemed to really embody the lines, I just didn't really like him in S4. I did like him in S5, but he was almost like a different character. It's revealed in After the Fall that at this point, he really has had 3 fathers, and what now defines his character is deciding which one of their paths to follow when making his decisions. That would explain why he's so different in S5, and I think it was for the better.

Personally I think Kartheiser's acting & the writing were both very good and created the kind of character they needed. He was the most screwed up lead, imo, and he acted like it. I'm not even sure if he was supposed to be likable, because I don't think Angel really liked him, he loved him, and would die for him, but it didn't seem like he enjoyed his personality.

First off, I agree that VK is a good actor. So he didn't enjoy playing Conner...so maybe he didn't give it his best shot. This is certainly not the first time an actor has done this.

Secondly, I'm not a big fan of Conner, as you all know. He just rails on me. Yet, I did enjoy his return in S5. I don't know how he's faring in the comics, as I haven't been keeping up.

I also agree on the question of: How likeable Conner was sopposed to be? If all Jossverse characters were likeable, there would be no conflict. Conner served his purpose well; to have a conflict with Angel and to create someone Angel would love more than anything and risk his life for (much like Dawn in Buffy). Conner succeded in his purpose - we don't all have to like him. It's not nessesary.
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I just find these interviews kinda funny...

Here's my commentary on well, his comments lol My words are in bold. 🙂

Vincent "Connor" Kartheiser on "Angel" & Joss Whedon (2007 GIANT Magazine)
"To me, the character lost its thrill about four episodes in. From there on out I felt like I was doing the same scene over and over and over. Every week I'd show up and have a scene with Cordelia, then Angel would show up and I'd have some sort of conflict with him. There'd be a couple of fight scenes where I'd fight with them even though I didn't want to and then I would sulk and leave. That to me was every episode. Ultimately, they wrote him into a corner. There was nowhere for him to go."

Sounds to me like he was frustrated with the direction his character was going - and rightly so. And what he;'s saying is bascially true. I don't think he's being out-of-line here at all.

"I was never a fan of Buffy, I'll say it straight out. I was never a fan of Angel."

This means nothing. Meaning he probobly just hasn't seen the show or doesn't watch much TV - doesn't mean he thinks they're bad nessesarily.

"There was a real sense on Angel that people were just doing a job. (...) would kind of just show up, do their job and go home. On Mad Men, people really love the show and it means something to them.(...) People really care about this project."

Now, this is a bit passive aggressive, I must admit. Sounds to me like he's a bit bitter. Judging from this, he must have cared about his character, or he wouldn't be saying this.

"[On Angel] but there was a sense we could do no wrong. We had our audience and regardless of what we did, we were going to keep that audience."

Since he uses the word "we" and not "they" this indicates to me that he did feel like he was part of a collaberation - which makes his later comments confusing.

"I always found it hard to say Joss' words."

Well, I find it hard to understand Joss at times (what with all his "uhs" and all) so I don't blame him. I also wonder here if he's referring to the script or Joss' direction?

"I just don't think I ever understood the show and my performance suffered because of that."

Well, someone should have sat down with him and explained it! Poor kid. No wonder he's bitter. Sounds to me like he was just thrown in there and wasn't given a clear enough definition of his character - which must have made it very difficult to play! Consitering this information, I think he did a great job protraying Conner.

"I let them know right off the bat that some of the choices they were making [about Conner] were wrong. I showed up to play that character and I had a lot of ideas. And they didn't like any of those ideas. That's okay, I'm in the business of having my ideas rejected. But after about 7 or 8 episodes of coming in with ideas and realizing it just didn't matter, I became really complacent and jaded and angry at the project. I felt like it wasn't a collaboration, that the people I was working with didn't care to take risks."

This is where he gets out of line. It is not the actors job to dictate his character. That is the directors and writers job. The actor reads lines and gets paid.

Now, if they were actually asking him for ideas, and then constantly rejecting them, that would be another thing. But if he was just spouting his mouth at any given interval that he didn't like that was going on with Conner - VK needs a serious kick in the ass.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I don't remember exactly but didn't Joss shoot down SMG because she felt she her characterisation in season 6 was wrong and the things she did with Spike too?

I just think Joss has this issue with listening to actors because of his 'woe is me, when I started out actors bullied me and didn't say what I wrote' mentality.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I don't remember exactly but didn't Joss shoot down SMG because she felt she her characterisation in season 6 was wrong and the things she did with Spike too?

I just think Joss has this issue with listening to actors because of his 'woe is me, when I started out actors bullied me and didn't say what I wrote' mentality.

Joss & Sarah don't get along according to David Fury:

There was a perceived notion, on both sides, I can say, between Sarah and Joss of ingratitude for both parties. Joss doesn't feel like Sarah's ever shown the proper amount of gratitude for what he's done for her and her career, and I think she feels the same way. That she feels she was never afforded the credit for Buffy's success and the gratitude from Joss.

I think they're both crazy. [laughs] They were the right people at the right time, it was a great partnership and it created a great series, and I truly think they both recognize this to some extent.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Joss & Sarah don't get along according to David Fury:

That simply adds credence to my belief that Joss is an absolute control freak of the worst kind and that he has serious issues, which lends further support to my backing VK.

SMG has always only ever made me believe that she cared for her role in Buffy.
The more I read of the man the less I like him.

 

[Primal Slayer]

After reading VKs interview, I am just surprised that he came back to do the guest spot in S5.

I am fine with actors not enjoying the charecter they are playing (Shannen Doherty hated playing Brenda Walsh) but what can you expect? He joined a show an established show, he was the new guy on set so I am not surprised that his views on Conner went in one ear and out the other.

And I agreed with SMG about Buffy during S6 along with Charisma with how they trashed Cordelia.

Sure Joss gave them jobs but they had just as much part in making the show a success.

 

[Clem Rocks]

I don't remember exactly but didn't Joss shoot down SMG because she felt she her characterisation in season 6 was wrong and the things she did with Spike too?

I just think Joss has this issue with listening to actors because of his 'woe is me, when I started out actors bullied me and didn't say what I wrote' mentality.

It's Joss's show though, he's entitled to do it however he wants. Who knows the character better, SMG or the guy who actually created the character?


And who's Donald Sutherland?

 

[Kean]

Do the actors have to be eternally grateful for the work they recieved on Buffy and/or Angel? No they really don't but I have no respect for someone who openly shoots down a project that they are still making money from and choosing to remain involved with. Joss is egotistical but VK is arrogant. If he dislikes the show and the people involved with it that much then stay clear of it. Do not go to conventions and bitch about your creativity being stifled. It isn't cool and nothing will change my mind about that.

I don't like Connor as a character, that's no secret and alot of it has to do with the fact that I don't like VK as an actor. However in the comics the character came into his own and has become much more likable and relatable. Connor was brought into the show to serve a purpose for Angel, not for a nobody actor like VK to start dictating about where he wanted the character to go. You can't do that, in any job! If a newbie came started work tomorrow and started telling my boss what to do!? I wouldn't be wishing on them. While he is still making money from this character and show that he hated he should be respectful, that's all I'm saying. It would be different if he had severed all ties with the Whedonverse, then it's fair game.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

This is why I generally try to avoid the behind-the-scenes stuff and stick with what's on the screen or on the page.

I'd rather be depressed about fictional characters than about real ones.

 

[ThatDarreinShow]

And who's Donald Sutherland?

Donald Sutherland played Merrick in the orignal movie in 1992.

 

[Silum]

First I must say I love this thread, so many different opinions and all seem to be equally valid... just depends what side you view it from.

As far as Joss and his arrogance goes, i just dont see it. I get that he has that kind of demeanor in interviews but I always saw him caring for his actors and not stifling their talent. I mean, I cant see Eliza doing another project with him if this were his attitude. At the end of the day, people have disagreements and not every partnership is going to work. Joss does a number of things I admire, and one of those is recognizing the fans (which he has done since year 1). I think both SMG and Joss care deeply about the Buffy character and thats all I care about.

VK's interview clearly shows he was frustrated on set. Well i can understand that, but if you say you dont like Buffy or Angel and then expect to talk to the writers on how Conner should be...then your an idiot. Actors SHOULD be able to voice their opinion, for sure, but it is ultimately the role of the writers and directors to utilize the actor, not the other way round. If you dont even like the show (maybe this can be interpreted to mean he just hasn't watched it but he did say paraphrased"I dont like Buffy or Angel") then I can see why half your ideas would be rejected. How can you pitch ideas on a character you don't understand on a show you dont understand????

Finally, Joss' words about D. Sutherland are quite harsh sure. But again, disagreements happen. If your asked why you left the set, you can either say the polite "there were disagreements" or you can identify what those disagreements were. If D.S. really did act as Joss says then I can quite clearly see why Joss would make this public. I think I would do the same if some arrogant actor came in thinking he was the big shot starting changing lines. When I see interviews about actors, the biggest thing I care about is seeing humility.

 

[Sweetescape]

Vincent "Connor" Kartheiser on "Angel" & Joss Whedon (2007 GIANT Magazine)
"To me, the character lost its thrill about four episodes in. From there on out I felt like I was doing the same scene over and over and over. Every week I’d show up and have a scene with Cordelia, then Angel would show up and I’d have some sort of conflict with him. There’d be a couple of fight scenes where I’d fight with them even though I didn’t want to and then I would sulk and leave. That to me was every episode. Ultimately, they wrote him into a corner. There was nowhere for him to go."

"I was never a fan of Buffy, I’ll say it straight out. I was never a fan of Angel."

What a stupid comment to make, Angel gave Vincent a chance to reach a larger audience. Lets face it he was young so why should Joss take on his thoughts and views? maybe they were as stupid and childish (sp?!-lol) as this interview.

I've always thought of Joss to be a bit egotistical..

I love his shows, I love the work he does, but I think MAYBE he is kind of a snob when it comes to input from other people, he's maybe quite selfish about his projects? But maybe there's a reason for it.

Sometimes i get that thought when i watch interviews or extras with him in them. Its like what Joss wants Joss gets.