Actors Bashing Joss

[atticus]

Yeah i have always thought that Joss is egotistical, he kind of has that vibe, that he thinks he can do no wrong. Any script, he has written, if the movie's crap, he will blame, everyone else involved and not himself. Plus he does get away with a lot, because he's a big name. I mean it took forever to write the Runaways/ Astonishing X-men comics. They are meant to be monthly. Every other writer sticks to the deadline, why not him. And yes he's busy, but don't take the job then. Again this is me pointing out that i'm not big into the Joss worship, but i still stand on my previous comments about the Boss/employee relationship. 🙂

 

[Veyron]

I've always thought of Joss to be a bit egotistical..

I love his shows, I love the work he does, but I think MAYBE he is kind of a snob when it comes to input from other people, he's maybe quite selfish about his projects? But maybe there's a reason for it.

I agree about loving the shows and the work Joss does Spoons. Who wouldn't agree with those words?

But as for Joss being egotistical? He has to be. His line of work demands it. Without being an egotist he wouldn't be the man he is - proud of his writing, proud of his shows etc etc.

If he wasn't a snob then shovelling out any old crap for the viewing public to watch would be enough for him to rest on his laurels and enable him to get a good nights sleep each and every time he laid his head on his pillow - and I simply can't believe that Joss is that type of person.

In his head, and in many others in his trade I suspect it's that sense of professionalism and the feeling of being proud of something that they've created that makes him/them want to do the best job he can on any show he/they write, produce or direct.

So what I'm getting to ultimately is that when an actor comes up to a director - Joss or any other and says "I think we could maybe do this..." or "Can we do this differently..." and Joss replies "No way man, it's my show - you do it my way or hit the highway..." I think he has every right to say that -- after all, what-ever the show is, it's his baby, his pet project - it's been written in the style that he wants and he has a vision in his head of just how it's going to play out on screen and if someone tries to change that vision then whom-ever has every right in my book to be more than pissed.

 

[Uncle Rory]

I can't say I really admire an actor bad mouthing the show that gave him his start but the kid has a point - the interactions of Connor with the rest of the characters were very one dimensional - I thought his best 2 episodes were the season 5 eps when he returned. Al least his interactions weren't predictable.

As for the idea of "Collaborating" I'd say that it's not absolutely unheard of for directors, creators and producers to take the actors opinions into consideration when scripting and / or fine tuning dialogue and scripts. The guy has the right to prefer to be consulted and / or have his opinion taken into consideration. I agree 100% that Connor was a very cool character that whose potential was never realized, which must be a real drag for an actor. The character didn't evolve 1 iota in the season and a half he was part of the cast.

As part of the "Joss is not God" faction this is about what I've come to expect.

Uncle Rory

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Acting is fundamentally an interpretive art, not a creative one. An actor helps create his character in the way that he handles the part he's given to play. The writer creates the story, the director puts that story into a visual medium. The actor is responsible for making the character come alive... turning words and stage directions into something an audience an relate to. This also includes building chemistry with other characters. These are intangibles that are beyond the scope of the writer or the director. IMO they have been as much responsible for the artistic and cultural success of Joss's shows as the writing and directing.

But an actor's role is to interpret words created by someone else. An actor is not a writer or a director. They are three entirely different skill sets.

An actor has a unique perspective on his character that the writer and director don't. Suggestions and ideas, respectfully offered, should always be welcome from an actor. But he needs to know where the line is between "helping" and "interfering."

An actor who wants to write and direct should seek out opportunities to do so.

 

[Silum]

A lot of people are defending VK but I dont really see why. This is what he said...

"I was never a fan of Buffy, I'll say it straight out. I was never a fan of Angel."

So is it really any wonder why he wasn't able to get his opinions heard or didnt understand his character?

Maybe if he actually watched the show he might like it and be able to provide real meaningful discussion as to where his character can go. If you dont like the show, imo you have no chance in getting through to the writing team. If he did in fact watch the show and didnt like it, he never should have taken the part to begin with because thats quite clearly selling out.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

A lot of people are defending VK but I dont really see why. This is what he said...



So is it really any wonder why he wasn't able to get his opinions heard or didnt understand his character?

Maybe if he actually watched the show he might like it and be able to provide real meaningful discussion as to where his character can go. If you dont like the show, imo you have no chance in getting through to the writing team. If he did in fact watch the show and didnt like it, he never should have taken the part to begin with because thats quite clearly selling out.

Erm, that doesn't say he didn't like then, it means he wasn't a fan but why WOULD be be a fan of show that he only saw one full episode of?

Will take a comparison from Doctor Who.

Catherine Tate played Donna Noble. Never before had she seen the show until she was actually in it.
So ignorant of the show that she truly believed that the Daleks were the only aliens on the show.

She is a comedienne, not really an actress, yet when she joined the show Russell T. Davis listened to her ideas about Donna and also allowed her acting to influence certain things.

I have no issue with an actor not knowing the shows before they joined them, in fact I have read quite a few times that a Buffy cast member had little knowledge of the show and how many of them now do you think would be actuall a 'fan' of the show.

Alot of actors hate watching themselves perform because they don't see the narrative they watch how they did and critique their performance and as we KNOW VK didn't like what he was doing, why would he watch that back?

 

[Veyron]

Not criticising your statement here Al, but where did you get the info on Catherine Tate from?

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Not criticising your statement here Al, but where did you get the info on Catherine Tate from?

Look on Youtube for her interviews with the likes of Jonathan Ross.
I think the interview with this information is the one where she is with Tennant just just before the season 4 premiere.

 

[Silum]

Veyron agrees: He took the part for the same reason that anyone else would. Money.

Well i believe i clarified that with 'selling out'. He doesnt like the show, he likes the money, ie selling out.

I dont have respect for those actors, especially when they start bad mouthing the whole creative team which managed to make a pretty successful series. Considering hes doing all this when hes a guest star and the show put him on the map. Then considering he doesnt even watch the show but thought he knew better than the writers where his character needed to go.

Yes his character went nowhere in the series, it didnt need to be developed. I was more interested (as it seems the writers were) about how his character influenced the already well established characters who were being developed. Not everyone on screen is about character growth, it would leave little screen time for the characters i do care about. Its a choice the writers made and its THEIR choice to make.

When reading this interview, VK comes off as a little brat.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Well i believe i clarified that with 'selling out'. He doesnt like the show, he likes the money, ie selling out.

I dont have respect for those actors, especially when they start bad mouthing the whole creative team which managed to make a pretty successful series. Considering hes doing all this when hes a guest star and the show put him on the map. Then considering he doesnt even watch the show but thought he knew better than the writers where his character needed to go.

Yes his character went nowhere in the series, it didnt need to be developed. I was more interested (as it seems the writers were) about how his character influenced the already well established characters who were being developed. Not everyone on screen is about character growth, it would leave little screen time for the characters i do care about. Its a choice the writers made and its THEIR choice to make.

When reading this interview, VK comes off as a little brat.

I don't get the impression he went in during the first episodes and said 'Right, this is how I think the character should be done' I get the impression he did a few episodes and after a while he was like 'OK, so I seem to be following a same cycle. Joss, I have a couple of ideas that could enhance my character in the narrative, something that I believe will take him away from the anger, fight, lose senario he always seems to be in.'

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Lets face it he was young so why should Joss take on his thoughts and views? maybe they were as stupid and childish (sp?!-lol) as this interview.

To be fair, I doubt Kartheiser was pitching, "this week Connor should like get to fly and have heat vision and actually beat Angel in a fight! (pwoo pwoo pwoo, vroom, woosh) [Kartheiser acting out Connor fling and having heat vision in the writer's room]"

Though that would have been hilarious 😀

 

[Silum]

I don't get the impression he went in during the first episodes and said 'Right, this is how I think the character should be done' I get the impression he did a few episodes and after a while he was like 'OK, so I seem to be following a same cycle. Joss, I have a couple of ideas that could enhance my character in the narrative, something that I believe will take him away from the anger, fight, lose senario he always seems to be in.'

well i stand by my opinion. I can see him asking for more depth in his character and the writers knowing full well that the character of Connor wasn't supposed to grow on screen.

The story didn't dictate the growth of Connor and VK didnt want to know that. I'm guessing he had some great idea's in the same way that Katharine Towne who played Sunday in 'The Freshman' <or insert other random actor here> could easily envision great character growth and a complex big bad against Buffy... the reality is the story is what it is and its a balance, dont get in a hissy fit VK when your ideas are rejected for teh good of the show... especially when you dont even LIKE THE SHOW!!!

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

Pft. When I leave the topic is about CK and when I come back it's about VK? Well. That sucks.

Anyway, I still think that what VK said was unprofessional, and isn't likely to help him get what he wants on whatever his next project is. Joss may be egotistical, but it's his show, and he has the right to do it however he wants. Sure, that might drag the quality down, it might run the whole thing into the ground, but after 11 seasons you're not going to convince me that VK had the right to throw a public hissy. Even if Joss did it with Donald Sutherland. They are two very seperate issues. Now, VK could have got his point across in a much less stroppy way, and I would have respected that. It must suck to be shot down every time, and to see the internet at large want to kill your character. With sharp objects. Or blunt instruments. Or both. But saying it like that paints him in a very spoiled light.

Just put it into contrast with how CK said it. Sure - his issues probably weren't as big a deal, but at least he stayed professional about it.

Ok. You can go back to talking about VK now.

 

[Frketson]

I find it suprising that VK didnt watch any angel episodes (except for the one he was born in), to me, i dunno, it seems really unprofessional and like he doesnt even care. I know most actors who would get a gig on a an already well known shoe would at least do a bit of research and watch some episodes to know what its like.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Acting is fundamentally an interpretive art, not a creative one. An actor helps create his character in the way that he handles the part he's given to play. The writer creates the story, the director puts that story into a visual medium. The actor is responsible for making the character come alive... turning words and stage directions into something an audience an relate to. This also includes building chemistry with other characters. These are intangibles that are beyond the scope of the writer or the director. IMO they have been as much responsible for the artistic and cultural success of Joss's shows as the writing and directing.

But an actor's role is to interpret words created by someone else. An actor is not a writer or a director. They are three entirely different skill sets.

An actor has a unique perspective on his character that the writer and director don't. Suggestions and ideas, respectfully offered, should always be welcome from an actor. But he needs to know where the line is between "helping" and "interfering."

An actor who wants to write and direct should seek out opportunities to do so.

Absolutely agreed. Could not have said it better myself 🙂
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A lot of people are defending VK but I dont really see why. This is what he said...



So is it really any wonder why he wasn't able to get his opinions heard or didnt understand his character?

Maybe if he actually watched the show he might like it and be able to provide real meaningful discussion as to where his character can go. If you dont like the show, imo you have no chance in getting through to the writing team. If he did in fact watch the show and didnt like it, he never should have taken the part to begin with because thats quite clearly selling out.

Honestly, I get your point but it is not VKs job to watch the show. It's his job to act in the episodes he's signed up for. Actors should not have to watch every episode of a show they've been hired to act in. That's ridiculous. He should have been sat down and his character should have been explained to him by the writers and the directors. This is common procedure. So, either this happened and he's just a moron, or he simply didn't get what he needed to understand his role. If the later in the case, I sympathize.

Acting is a job like any other. I think people forget that. VK has to pay his over-priced L.A. rent, and he might have to take jobs here and there on shows he, well, frankly doesn't "like". This was probobly the case with Angel.

It's not selling out to accept a role. He needed the money, he played the part, he left. End of story. So he didn't like the show. Whatever.

But it's definitely a no-no to be bad-mouthing any people whom have given you a job. It's just tacky and non -professional. It just comes off as immature.
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I find it suprising that VK didnt watch any angel episodes (except for the one he was born in), to me, i dunno, it seems really unprofessional and like he doesnt even care. I know most actors who would get a gig on a an already well known shoe would at least do a bit of research and watch some episodes to know what its like.

Actually, JM originally turned down the role of Spike. He thought a show called "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" must be awful. Yet, his agent convinced him to watch just one episode and JM said he was hooked. He thought it was the best show he'd ever seen, and he said "Get me on this show". Then, the next say, he went in to audition for a character named "Spike" that he knew nothing about - and got the role that day 🙂

So basically what I'm saying is that VK probobly has a preconcieved noton of that BtVs was, so he never bothered to watch it. Common theme, it seems.

 

[Silum]

Honestly, I get your point but it is not VKs job to watch the show. It's his job to act in the episodes he's signed up for. Actors should not have to watch every episode of a show they've been hired to act in. He should have been sat down and his character should have been explained to him. This is common procedure. So, either this happened and he's just a moron, or he simply didn't get what he needed to understand his role. If the later in the case, I sympathize.

Acting is a job like any other. I think people forget that. VK has to pay his rent, and he might have to take jobs here and there on shows he well, frankly doesn't like. This was probobly the case with Angel.

It's not selling out to accept a role. He needed the money, he played the part, he left. End of story. So he didn't like the show. Whatever. But it's definitely a no-no to be bad-mouthing any people whom have given you a job. It's just tacky and non -professional. It just comes off as immature.

Well i think your misinterpreting what i have said. My point is never that actors need to watch the show, my point is that VK has made some rather harsh claims against the show despite not even liking the show, in fact on only watching a single episode. If he were to make accurate calls about how his character can be made more interesting and more involved..would you not expect him to understand the show a little better?

I just don’t think I ever understood the show

The point could be made that he was not sat down or informed about the show, well this is his responsibility to understand the characters if he wants to make his own alterations ...otherwise sit down, read the script, and read your lines.

Its a job yes, but acting is considered an artistic vocation, if you want to just get by and make a buck then fine... but that IS called selling out. VK doesnt like the show Angel but works on the show anyway and then has the nerve to discredit the creative team behind his success... pathetic in my opinion.

The thought of him answering questions for money at fan conventions is even more sickening.

 

[Frketson]

Actually, JM originally turned down the role of Spike. He thought a show called "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" must be awful. Yet, his agent convinced him to watch just one episode and JM said he was hooked. He thought it was the best show he'd ever seen, and he said "Get me on this show". Then, the next say, he went in to audition for a character named "Spike" that he knew nothing about - and got the role that day 🙂

So basically what I'm saying is that VK probobly has a preconcieved noton of that BtVs was, so he never bothered to watch it. Common theme, it seems.

Seeing the character of Connor, i can just imagine VK turning up on the first day all sulky and moody 😀

The thing is, if he has never watched the show like he has said, who the hell does he think he is telling the writes/directors/whatever how the character should behave and how his story should progress?

 

[LadyLavinia]

So is it really any wonder why he wasn't able to get his opinions heard or didnt understand his character?

Maybe if he actually watched the show he might like it and be able to provide real meaningful discussion as to where his character can go. If you dont like the show, imo you have no chance in getting through to the writing team. If he did in fact watch the show and didnt like it, he never should have taken the part to begin with because thats quite clearly selling out.

If VK didn't like the damn show, he didn't like it. Why do so many fans of shows like BUFFY and ANGEL "insist" that the actors in these shows are also major fans or like their jobs?

There are a lot of people who do not like their jobs, but do it anyway, because they need work. Which is probably what VK eventually did. It wasn't a crime for him to dislike what he was doing.

The thought of him answering questions for money at fan conventions is even more sickening.

Oh for God's sake! You guys sound like a bunch of whining kids who are pissed off because some actor who worked in their favorite fandom didn't share their feelings. Who cares whether VK liked working on ANGEL or not? Your opinion of the show should matter, not his. If the fact that he did not share your feelings about the show really bothers you that much, then you need to take a good, long look at yourselves.

 

[cryptwarmer]

The thought of him answering questions for money at fan conventions is even more sickening.

This statement really surprises me...doesn't he deserve to get paid for what he does? For promoting the show, for spending time on it as opposed to other money making ventures?

I understand that when we fall fast and hard for a show, it IS all about fantasy, we get taken in and we love it. And it can be hard to recall that the actors,writers, directors are doing it for money. They have to, that's how they make their living. There is nothing wrong with it, nor does it degrade them or what they do. It's an honest way to make a living.

As far as answering questions for money goes, think of him as a sort of professor about the show. Fans come, wanting in depth information, and he gets paid to provide it, like any expert. Totally fair and appropriate.

They ALL get paid for doing those fan conventions. I'll bet there are actors out there who would do them for free if they had to, because of love, or whatever...just like there are some of any of us that love our jobs that much, but the other 99.9%...have bills to pay that just wont wait.

 

[Silum]

If VK didn't like the damn show, he didn't like it. Why do so many fans of shows like BUFFY and ANGEL "insist" that the actors in these shows are also major fans or like their jobs?

There are a lot of people who do not like their jobs, but do it anyway, because they need work. Which is probably what VK eventually did. It wasn't a crime for him to dislike what he was doing.





Oh for God's sake! You guys sound like a bunch of whining kids who are pissed off because some actor who worked in their favorite fandom didn't share their feelings. Who cares whether VK liked working on ANGEL or not? Your opinion of the show should matter, not his. If the fact that he did not share your feelings about the show really bothers you that much, then you need to take a good, long look at yourselves.

AGAIN.... my problem is not that Vk doesn't like the show, this is merely a fact. My point is that he doesnt even understand the show.

I just don’t think I ever understood the show

So he doesn't understand the show, do you think his input to his character is going to be very valuable? My point was he is having a hissy fit over his secondary character that the writers are using as a tool for the already established characters.

The thought of him answering questions for money at fan conventions is even more sickening.

This was in reference to what someone said earlier in the thread about his experience with him at a fan convention. If you dont want to read the thread to understand its context.. dont. But this has nothing to do with me getting teary eyed over an actor who's work I dont even find that good anyway, its about his cry baby words about the writing team on a show he doesnt even understand.