ANGEL After the Fall #16

AndrewCrossett said:
The spell theory has a lot of holes, though. Why aren't the Slayers and Buffy's friends affected by it?
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Good point. Maybe the spell just makes people think of vamps as a kind of being that's just always been around? That wouldn't keep Buffy from killing them since that's still her job?

I honestly don't know how any explanation will make this plot point good... But to be fair, the only bad issue Joss has put out has been Harmonic Divergence 40 good ones out of 41 is still pretty good.
 
Buffyverse Fan said:
I honestly don't know how any explanation will make this plot point good... But to be fair, the only bad issue Joss has put out has been Harmonic Divergence 40 good ones out of 41 is still pretty good.
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I'm hoping the solution to this whole issue will be so clever and unexpected that we'd never think of it, and when it's revealed we'll all go "Whoa!" and applaud.

After all these years he's earned my trust on this one. Hope he doesn't blow it.

I really hope the spell explanation isn't true, actually. Just waving your hands and saying "it was magic" is lazy storytelling.
 
AndrewCrossett said:
I'm hoping the solution to this whole issue will be so clever and unexpected that we'd never think of it, and when it's revealed we'll all go "Whoa!" and applaud.

After all these years he's earned my trust on this one. Hope he doesn't blow it.

I really hope the spell explanation isn't true, actually. Just waving your hands and saying "it was magic" is lazy storytelling.
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Agreed on both points, but right now I've only heard 3 unique theories:

1.) Things just are as they are. The citizens of LA convinced the world that vampires are real since Angel got them out of hell.

2.) It's a spell cast by W&H and/or Twilight's group.

3.) It's a dream/illusion/Alternate Universe.

I think all 3 are terrible, but if those were my choices, I'd have to pick magic (#2). I hope you're right and Joss will shock us. You were definitely right with AtF & S8 intertwining heavily, since right now vampires are public all around.
 
Buffyverse Fan said:
Agreed on both points, but right now I've only heard 3 unique theories:

1.) Things just are as they are. The citizens of LA convinced the world that vampires are real since Angel got them out of hell.

2.) It's a spell cast by W&H and/or Twilight's group.

3.) It's a dream/illusion/Alternate Universe.

I think all 3 are terrible, but if those were my choices, I'd have to pick magic (#2). I hope you're right and Joss will shock us. You were definitely right with AtF & S8 intertwining heavily, since right now vampires are public all around.
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I don't know...

It would hardly make sense for Twilight, who wants the rid the world of magic, to cast a spell on the world about vampires.
 
white avenger
white avenger
It would make at least as much sense as Holtz making a deal with Sahjan in order to kill Angel. They would both use the old excuse about the end justifying the means.
Keanoite said:
I don't know...

It would hardly make sense for Twilight, who wants the rid the world of magic, to cast a spell on the world about vampires.
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You know what? I think Twilight is full of it when he says he wants to rid the world of magic.

The guy has so far used nothing but magic, and demons, and vampires, to carry out the things he's done so far. Gigi and Roden, Amy and Warren, Harmony, that portal they used to try and blast Slayer HQ... and possibly the machine they were blasting with... and demons, demons, demons everywhere you look.

He even apparently uses magic 100% of the time to fly, although it's possible that may be some sort of tech.

The "ending magic/banishing the demons" thing is just a line he uses to reel in allies like Voll, and make them think his goals align with theirs.

He may not even tell his other minions about that little detail... after all, if he gets his way, Amy becomes a failed cheerleader and Warren becomes a corpse. My guess is they don't know about that.

Twilight wants the world to entrust him with getting rid of all the magic and demons... which would of course involve giving him all the magic and demons to "get rid of."
 
Keanoite said:
I don't know...

It would hardly make sense for Twilight, who wants the rid the world of magic, to cast a spell on the world about vampires.
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The argument I've heard is that they did it for help in vilifying the slayers.

Personally I dislike all three of them the only reason I see #2 as the best one is because:

1.) Would leave the moronic "vampires are lovable celebrities" plot remaining in canon.

3.) Would retcon all of the issues published.

So while I dislike #2, I think it's the least horrible.
 
I am going to take things as they appear and choose option 1. The most important reason being that it's the only option that doesn't really add a plot point that we don't know about. Both other options take what we know and add plot-glue to put the story together, while option 1 works with what we know and only has us extrapolating the missing info.
 
AndrewCrossett said:
You know what? I think Twilight is full of it when he says he wants to rid the world of magic.

The guy has so far used nothing but magic, and demons, and vampires, to carry out the things he's done so far. Gigi and Roden, Amy and Warren, Harmony, that portal they used to try and blast Slayer HQ... and possibly the machine they were blasting with... and demons, demons, demons everywhere you look.

He even apparently uses magic 100% of the time to fly, although it's possible that may be some sort of tech.

The "ending magic/banishing the demons" thing is just a line he uses to reel in allies like Voll, and make them think his goals align with theirs.

He may not even tell his other minions about that little detail... after all, if he gets his way, Amy becomes a failed cheerleader and Warren becomes a corpse. My guess is they don't know about that.

Twilight wants the world to entrust him with getting rid of all the magic and demons... which would of course involve giving him all the magic and demons to "get rid of."
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I don't know, he'd be the first Big Bad that lied to that extent to the audience. And the fact that we know that this whole apocalypse ends with Buffy chasing the big bads out of this dimension thickens the plot even further.

But I honestly have no clue. While AlleyCat is 100% right that option #1 is the most apparent, I truly hope it's not the case since, I think it makes us, the fans, out to be fools because, like you said Andrew, Joss expecting us to believe that humans would overlook the whole "our favorite celebs eat and maim us for kicks" thing it's ridiculous.
 
They're spinning the story in that they DO feed on humans, but do NOT drain them. Thus leaving them with an energy-rush (like Riley in S5), making it seem that humans and vampires can have mutually beneficial feeding agreements.
 
Allycat said:
They're spinning the story in that they DO feed on humans, but do NOT drain them. Thus leaving them with an energy-rush (like Riley in S5), making it seem that humans and vampires can have mutually beneficial feeding agreements.
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That's what Harmony does. There's no reason to believe any of the other how-many-thousands of vamps in the world are following her lead.

If we're talking the universal-spell option, it would actually be easier to alter the reality than the perception of it. Just cast a spell over all vampires to make them stop killing, while continuing to feed. This would be far easier... vamps have no souls and can't make their own moral judgments; also, they're all powered by the same evil magic. If you could find a way to tap into the source of that magic, you could theoretically control them all, like a computer virus spreading over a network. That's exactly what the Tokyo vamps tried to do in "Wolves at the Gate" to de-power all the Slayers.

But we have no evidence yet that anything like that is happening.

And if Twilight can control vampires' minds to that extent, why not just get rid of them all and check off a big part of his agenda right there? Is his plan to use the vamps to help slander and expose and destroy the Slayers, and then when that's done to give them the idea that a walk in the sunlight would be a good idea?
 
I always had the feeling its about the media throwing guilt about how vampires are *born* this way and cant help it. Making Buffy and co seem like some right wing hate group for not agreeing with the new world view. You can make anyone seem like a hero or villain by how the press tells there story. Look at William Randolph Hearst whip up popular support for U.S. military adventurism in Cuba, Puerto Rico and the Philippines in 1898.
 
Ashxking said:
I always had the feeling its about the media throwing guilt about how vampires are *born* this way and cant help it. Making Buffy and co seem like some right wing hate group for not agreeing with the new world view. You can make anyone seem like a hero or villain by how the press tells there story. Look at William Randolph Hearst whip up popular support for U.S. military adventurism in Cuba, Puerto Rico and the Philippines in 1898.
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People's sense of tolerance and political correctness tends to be blunted somewhat, though, when the "victimized minority" in question are all (or almost all) actively out every night killing your friends and family and neighbors right in the streets of your own town.

It would be like the media saying, "We really need to accept serial killers and child molesters. They can't help how they are. We need to respect their chosen lifestyle and stop victimizing them and demonizing them all the time. Who are we to judge that our lives are worth more than their happiness?"
 
From the episode School Hard

Spike: "Come up against this Slayer yet?"
Angel: "She's cute. Not too bright, though. Gave the puppy dog, 'I'm all
tortured' act. Keeps her off my back when I feed."
Spike: "Ha ha! People still fall for that Anne Rice routine. What a world!"

Twisting how the world sees evil is easy to do. Look at the movie Natural Born Killers. It talks about the press made two killers world wide celebs
 
That wouldn't work in this case. We're talking about the world knowing that thousands of killers are walking among us and slaughtering us on a daily basis. On that scale, neither the Anne Rice or Natural Born Killers romanticism is going to go very far.

If it does, then we deserve to be food.
 
AndrewCrossett said:
That wouldn't work in this case. We're talking about the world knowing that thousands of killers are walking among us and slaughtering us on a daily basis. On that scale, neither the Anne Rice or Natural Born Killers romanticism is going to go very far.
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Here's the big question though. How much of it is spun? How much does the general public know? Do they know how much vampires there are? Do they know about the lack of a soul? Just because they are now aware of vampire existence, doesn't mean they necessarily know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. A lack of knowledge could make it much easier to shape their interpretation.

AndrewCrossett said:
If it does, then we deserve to be food.
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That's a whole different discussion. There's a valid point to be made about vampires not being evil, just higher up on the food chain. We just perceive them as evil, because they eat us. Just like cows might perceive humans.
 
Allycat said:
Here's the big question though. How much of it is spun? How much does the general public know? Do they know how much vampires there are? Do they know about the lack of a soul? Just because they are now aware of vampire existence, doesn't mean they necessarily know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. A lack of knowledge could make it much easier to shape their interpretation.
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But once people know about them, they will investigate further. And they won't like what they find, because vampires can't help being the way they are, with literally a handful of exceptions.

(Even Harmony is, in the end, evil. She has no soul. Someday she's going to slip, and it may very well be on TV. She got away with killing Soledad in #21 because it was self-defense. Now that she's back to a human blood diet, though, how long can she keep the killer hidden?)
 
AndrewCrossett said:
But once people know about them, they will investigate further. And they won't like what they find, because vampires can't help being the way they are, with literally a handful of exceptions.

(Even Harmony is, in the end, evil. She has no soul. Someday she's going to slip, and it may very well be on TV. She got away with killing Soledad in #21 because it was self-defense. Now that she's back to a human blood diet, though, how long can she keep the killer hidden?)
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Yeah, and you're using Harmony as an example. She was literally trained to control herself with the risk of being dusted by Angel if she stepped out of line, all of the other thousands don't have a year of house training under their belts (nor would they want it).
 
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