Angel And Buffy

[LilBufBuf]

I don't understand how people find this graphic and I'm also not sure most people have actually read the Kama Sutra. The idea most people have regarding the Kama Sutra is this ridiculous Westernized version where all the concepts are boiled down to "freaky sex positions." The Kama Sutra is a philosophical, ritualistic and spiritual exploration of sex. In a way, the Kama Sutra actually does perfectly fit what Buffy and Angel are experiencing in #34.

Honestly, there aren't even any private bits shown; the only thing being shown is skin and everything else is pretty much strategically hidden or left to the imagination. BtVS has always dealt with adult content and this is nothing new. The comic has a 13+ rating normally and does have an M rating for this issue. It's not up to the comic book creators to "please think of the children." If people have a problem with their their young teenagers seeing depictions of sex, they should be paying attention to the content that their kids have access to.

Some people seem to have an issue with the sex because it's Buffy and Angel. Buffy is no longer a lovestruck teenager without any sexual experience whatsoever. Angel has been around for 200+ years. People in love don't usually have sex only missionary style in a darkened room on top of satin sheets with mood lighting and soft sighs. In IWRY, when Buffy and Angel had an entire day together, they clearly had a different sexual relationship than they did when Buffy was only 17. The complaints that the type of sex that they're having in the comic is "weird" or "awkward" for these characters (and perfectly okay for other characters) is slightly hypocritical.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Actually, I have to wonder, when has Joss ever put out a story that was secondary to the tales' progression? I think it is totally unfair to just throw the "it was for the sales" remark around.

Nobody, not even me, is saying the Bangel sex, itself, is a marketing ploy... but the way it's portrayed (devoting half a comic book's illustrations to B and A f&%§ing - doesn't the most tasteful title say it all) is.

Not even with Spuffy sex did we ever once see Buffy's naked boobs in a close up, covered merely with Spike's hands, or Buffy's head bobbing up and down in front of Spikes bare groin area. never once did we see the Buffybot actually draw her sketches and hold them into the camera with a happy leer. And yet, it's that ship that get stick for being blatantly gross. (It is gross, but B/A in this issue have taken porn to a level that makes the portrayal of S6 Spuffy look tame. Even the - rightly! - infamous Bronze balcony scene is tastefully discreet in comparison; not even the most hardcore anti-Spuffy Bangel could argue otherwise without making a fool of themselves for hypocritical prejudice.)

And no, that's not a ship war argument. It would be a "Issue 34 Bangel = gratuitious porn that should have no place in canon because it disgraces what BtVS is about" argument, whether or not Spike comes into play in the reasoning. It's not the sex, it's showing the sex in minute detail; no ship, even the blatantly sexual ones as Xanya, S6 Spuffy, or Cordonnor, ever dived into outright porn as Bangel did now. It's an all-time low for good taste and quality standards in the show - not because it's Bangel porn, but because it's porn, period.

 

[Stakesteak]

I do respect your opinion, LilBufBuf, but I have to disagree with your viewpoint. While you have a very valid point that the writers and artists shouldn't be censored because young eyes might gander, my biggest gripe is that the porno stuff is very uncharacteristic of what BtVS used to be about. In the past, when the show's writers wanted to display sex between two people in love, such as the example you brought up of when Angel became human, they conveyed their point in a much more tasteful way. Buffy and Angel were assuredly going at it like rabbits, but their love for each other was shown in much more touching ways than raw sex. The only exception is when they wanted to convey pure lust, such as Spike and Buffy in S6, though even then they were much less graphic. My view of this applies for all the other characters in BtVS as well so you don't want you to think that I'm just singling out Buffy and Angel.

Graphic sexual encounters are usually put in for shock value and nothing else. They could have definitely had them doing it without stopping just short of depicting hardcore porn; In IWRY they certainly did. While I certainly have watched a few guilty pleasure shows that were pretty graphic such Nip/Tuck, there are much better ways to get the point across that two characters are in love.

I guess my main point is that the images in the comic book didn't really do anything to further the notion that those two are soul mates. If anything it just hammered home to point that they're both strongly attracted to each other (which we already knew). Therefore, the detailed depictions of their love making just seems like an attempt to up the shock value to get more sales.

 

[LilBufBuf]

I do respect your opinion, LilBufBuf, but I have to disagree with your viewpoint. While you have a very valid point that the writers and artists shouldn't be censored because young eyes might gander, my biggest gripe is that the porno stuff is very uncharacteristic of what BtVS used to be about. In the past, when the show's writers wanted to display sex between two people in love, such as the example you brought up of when Angel became human, they conveyed their point in a much more tasteful way. Buffy and Angel were assuredly going at it like rabbits, but their love for each other was shown in much more touching ways than raw sex. The only exception is when they wanted to convey pure lust, such as Spike and Buffy in S6, though even then they were much less graphic. My view of this applies for all the other characters in BtVS as well so you don't want you to think that I'm just singling out Buffy and Angel.

Graphic sexual encounters are usually put in for shock value and nothing else. They could have definitely had them doing it without stopping just short of depicting hardcore porn; In IWRY they certainly did. While I certainly have watched a few guilty pleasure shows that were pretty graphic such Nip/Tuck, there are much better ways to get the point across that two characters are in love.

I guess my main point is that the images in the comic book didn't really do anything to further the notion that those two are soul mates. If anything it just hammered home to point that they're both strongly attracted to each other (which we already knew). Therefore, the detailed depictions of their love making just seems like an attempt to up the shock value to get more sales.

I don't think this is pornographic or even close to hardcore, but maybe I've seen too much hentai (thank you Japan), boobs on prime-time TV (thank you, England) and sexually explicit shows (thank you, True Blood/HBO) and am now completely desensitized to how certain people (Americans especially) view nudity and sex.

Like I said before, a sex scene between two characters in love doesn't have to be portrayed in a romantic way. It can be portrayed as lustful and raw, especially when said characters are in a heightened state of mind. IWRY might have been more tastefully depicted than whatever is going on in the comic, but that scene in the kitchen with them on the table was all about lust.

The show was on the WB, so of course they had to conform to a certain standard. A lot of sex on the show was implied (the most risque it ever got were scenes between Spike and Buffy). The ratings standard, especially in regards to sex (or in regards to sex vs. violence) is awfully strict. Queer sex or queer love for example is typically more scrutinized. The comic book medium allows the creators to show things they typically couldn't on the show. If Buffy were to have had sex with Satsu on screen, they probably would have had to be clothed and shot from the neck up to avoid a stricter rating.

I think the images in the comic book are doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing, which is showing that these two characters are having the best cosmic sex of their lives.

I don't think anyone who isn't a fan of the series or the comic, is going to rush out and buy the comic simply because two of the characters are showing some skin. If people want to see sex in comic form, they're probably going to head to the 18+/hentai section in the comic book store.

 

[Tranquillity]

I'm not against Buffy and Angel having Sex - I think it was kinda inevitable (though I still think they should have had the coversation/explanation BEFORE the sex but whatev), but that being said, I didn't like the issue - mainly because it made Buffy and Angel laughable. I stress, this is not because of the sex but because of the drawings - they were just not very good and quite a few made me laugh and i'm pretty sure they weren't supposed to (for example, that one next to the ad for the Guild...hilarious). I think it was a combination or the fact that there were so many pictures of them doing it, and each one was in a *new and exciting* position that made it sort of comical - I can't help but think that a big double splash page that embodied the passion and destruction of the moment would have been so much more effective. The issue got a horrible review from CBR - they gave it one star.

 

[InsaneMystic]

The complaints that the type of sex that they're having in the comic is "weird" or "awkward" for these characters (and perfectly okay for other characters) is slightly hypocritical.

It's not the type of sex, it's the type of display.

If the camera in "Innocence/Surprise" had been positioned in a certain way, even that scene (which, even as the boards rabidest anti-Bangel, I have zero, zip, zilch complaints about) could have been made into hardcore porn of a yucky grossness that S6 Spuffy, in all it's disturbingness, couldn't dream of rivaling.

 

[crazysoulless]

I was perfectly fine with the sex scenes. My only issue with it was the quality of the drawings.

I've been able to visualize everything in the S8 graphic novels. Buffy traveling 200 years into the future with the flying cars would've been like The Fifth Element mixed with Doctor Who. CentaurDawn would've been like the centaurs on Xena or Hercules. The Tibetan battle would've been epic and heartbreaking but edge-of-your-seat like in LOTR: the two towers.

When I think of the sex scenes in Twilight part two I envision Jason and Amy on V in True Blood, Clark and Alicia when they got married (and later when Lana got superpowers) on Smallville, and Tillow since it implied that Willow went down on Tara while they were flying in OMWF on BtVS.

The sky in that space shot should've been darker. It should have looked like that time in Wrecked when Willow was high on Rack's magicks and felt like she was flying through space.

 

[LilBufBuf]

I was perfectly fine with the sex scenes. My only issue with it was the quality of the drawings.

I've been able to visualize everything in the S8 graphic novels. Buffy traveling 200 years into the future with the flying cars would've been like The Fifth Element mixed with Doctor Who. CentaurDawn would've been like the centaurs on Xena or Hercules. The Tibetan battle would've been epic and heartbreaking but edge-of-your-seat like in LOTR: the two towers.

When I think of the sex scenes in Twilight part two I envision Jason and Amy on V in True Blood, Clark and Alicia when they got married (and later when Lana got superpowers) on Smallville, and Tillow since it implied that Willow went down on Tara while they were flying in OMWF on BtVS.

The sky in that space shot should've been darker. It should have looked like that time in Wrecked when Willow was high on Rack's magicks and felt like she was flying through space.

Yeah, I have to say that I haven't been that impressed by the artwork inside the comics either...

 

[crazysoulless]

There are certain artworks and scene panels in each issue that are extraordinary but overall I find a lot of subpar images. I don't understand it since they have so long to perfect each frame. I've seen some better work in a few of the non-cannon BtVS comics.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Wait...

I don´t get it. How can people say they f*** because of their love and they deserve it. I thought you´re all glad they are under a magical influence and they don´t have their free will so they can´t be responsible for all that shit around them? How is this romantic or even a good thing? If they are controlled by an outsideforce it was a freakin mind and bodyrape nothing else. I´m confused.

Are the Bangel shippers so desperate to see them together that they are just ignoring the facts about how their sexathon began? Imo you can clearly see that the glow is something that overtook her body and forced her to have sex with Angel. It´s disgusting and horrifying. What if it wasn´t Buffys free will to enter Twilight? At the end of the issue she looks confused and i guess she can´t exactly remember what happened to her.

The universe forced them to get it on to bring a new masterrace into the world. They abused her in a way i can´t even begin to imagine and it makes me sick.

Disclaimer: Hell if it were Spike i would burn the comics.

 

[white avenger]

I'm sure that most, if not all, of us have seen the uncut versions of the sex scenes from "Smashed" and "Dead Things," and the uncut version of the kitchen table scene from "I Will Remember You" and a few others, and I can't help but wonder why, if those relatively innocent moments were edited, whether for content or simply because they didn't really contribute that much to the story line, the amount of semi-graphic sex was deemed necessary in Issue #34. To me personally, seeing all of that detail actually detracts from whatever the actual story is trying to convey. Some things are better left NOT seen, allowing the reader to fill in his or her own details. And without trying to start another Spuffy/Bangel debate, but only using it to make my point, that's why the basement scene between Buffy and Spike was probably the most romantic, as well as erotic, scenes in the history of either show, and all that they did was just look at each other from across the room, then it fades to black. Even Joss said, in the commentary, that he wanted that scene to be left to the viewers' imagination, Did they engage in wild monkey sex? Actually make love for the first time? Sit up and play checkers all night? Whatever they did was left up to the imagination. If that had been a basic recreation of the Faith/Robin or Willow/Kennedy sex scenes, it wouldn't have been nearly as memorable to me as what we actually DIDN'T see, but were able to imagine for ourselves.

 

[Kana]

I'm of the camp that found it well, funny. I'm not sure if it's because it's a comic book or if it's the fact that they are having superman sex, but it's just laughable.

I'm a Bangel, nor am I against Bangel, but everything I liked about it, just isn't there. The idea of their love explicitly being about destiny and fate and less about character and choice undermines everything that makes them who they are, the champions that they are. It was said in the other thread that Angel has fought against being destiny's bitch and that what I liked about his character and Buffy's for that matter. Loving each other because of fate, evolution or whatever is just, you know, wet.

 

[MinwaraYana]

Of course, it's hot. A man and a woman having sex in front of my face, how could I not find it hot? But they're not just a man and a woman. They're characters I love(d). I hate it because it's WRONG and I keep looking at it.

So I had fun editing the pages all day. 😀

And why it's wrong?

First of all, he's the Bad Guy and a big fat mass murderer. Hence the fact that if he's under a spell or something. And I'm tired of this! I'm tired of waiting to know what's actually going on. It's like Connelia sex. But S8 is comics. It's not tv show that you can find out a few weeks later and go "Oh, this is not real Cordy."

Well, I'm going rage right now. But my opinion can change when we get the (hopefully, make-sense) explanation what's really going on with them in the next issues.

Secondly, in the ruin? Through the mountains? In the space? In different positions? If they're not ashamed of themselves, they should have been ashamed of birds and aliens(Again, my opinion can change if they prove that they're not themselves). It's too much. It ruined the whole Buffyverse and I hate that it's canon. One reason I won't buy the Twilight TPB even I usually buy S8 TPB. It's not safe if my little cousins or my mom happen to get a hand on it. I don't wanna be pointed in the face that I read porn. And they sure will have a doubt if I watch a porn for 7 seasons.

About the marketing ploy, I don't know if they meant it. But it sure does help them get people to buy more. I saw it with my eyes when I was in USA for 3 months. It's when issue 12(where Buffy has sex with Satsu) came out and a bookstore in Florida especially ordered it to be sold in the store even they don't usually sell the comics. There's issue 12 everywhere, it scared me.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Well, I'm going rage right now. But my opinion can change when we get the (hopefully, make-sense) explanation what's really going on with them in the next issues.

If it´s really some kind of masterplan from the universe to wipe out mankind and replace them with a new species of a master race i will cry for a whole week.

It´s just lame and stupid. I dont give a f*** about destiny,fate,love at first sight and all this nonsense and neither should Angel and Buffy. I´m sick of prophecies and higher powers who think they can do what ever they want and getting away with it.

Screw the universe. Screw destiny. Screw everything.

The PTB are just useless as ever.

The senior partners are a bunch of bitchy little girls and they even can´t start their apocalypse if Angel hasn´t his free will. Freakin idiots.

The shanshu prohecy is just bullshi*. The world needs warriors like Angel and Spike. So why is making them human a reward? If they are human again who the hell will protect the world?

Screw Twilight. I don´t know if its really a cosmic event or just a bored hellgod or just a freakin smurf. I don´t really care.

The higher powers allowing only one slayer at a time because 1 vs 10000 demons is enough. Are you kidding me? That´s not fair that´s bullshi*. Now there are a whole lot more slayers out there and the higher powers/universe/the freakin mailman whatever decide hmmm no this sucks. They might could win against the evil forces. We can´t let that happen because of the freakin balance.

You know what? Screw the balance too. If i got the chance to kill all terrorists on earth and bring peace i would do it no matter what happens next and if it would cost my life so be it. No innocent life deserves to suffer because of the decisions a god/higher power/howard the duck whatever mades to keep the balance or to amuse themselfs.

It´s time for Buffy and Angel to make their own choices no matter what the consequences could be. Hey god/higher power/TPTB/easter bunny whatever you know what? Screw you!

And now i´m upset...

 

[LyteHouse]

Nobody, not even me, is saying the Bangel sex, itself, is a marketing ploy

I suggested it.


Sex sells. It’s a fact of life. Sex penetrates (no pun intended) every facet of modern media.


Sales of Season 8 have been in free-fall since the first issue – Issue #1 sold in excess of 160,000 copies, Issue #33 barely scraped by the 40,000 mark - and its losing more and more readers with each subsequent installment. Drumming up interest through shock-value is nothing new in comics, or any medium of entertainment for that matter. It's just that some manage to do it better than others.

Would people really go out a buy he comics because there are sex scene drawings of Buffy and Angel?

My local comic store sold out every copy. That hasn’t happened since….. let me think… Buffy’s lesbian sexcapades in Issue #12! Go figure.


Even my girlfriend wanted to read it and she knows nothing about Season 8.

the sex still served a purpose in the story. It wasn't sex for sex sake, it allowed Buffy and Angel to move into "Twilight"

Are we supposed to believe that this ancient, sacred realm of Twilight is only admissible by achieving mutual orgasm? How does that work? There’s a million ways to convey these story concepts and plot beats here without the need for gratuitous sex.


I realise that when you’re dealing with a story based around 'the supernatural' there has to be a certain amount of suspension-of-disbelief. But if you’re creating this type of story, then you still need to build an apparatus of logic to hold everything in place, to give the readers something to get a foothold in, so that story developments and character motivations – no matter how outrageous – are plausible within the confines of the world they inhibit. Plot points like “A magic orgasm did it!” are just nonsense. It's bad, sloppy writing.

To me personally, seeing all of that detail actually detracts from whatever the actual story is trying to convey. Some things are better left NOT seen, allowing the reader to fill in his or her own details.

I agree. If it really was an absolute necessity for them to have sex, then there are far more subtle and tasteful ways to portray it. Its just feels 'off' to have this going on in light of all the trauma, the carnage and senseless deaths the main characters have endured over the past few issues. Having an unbridled sex-fest just leaves a bad taste in your mouth. And I really should rephrase that last sentence.



It also doesn’t help that it completely betrays the carefully constructed relationship dynamics between Angel and Buffy. Angel can have sex with Buffy now because he’s immortal and his soul’s immortal too. Err.. what? It’s magic! Don’t think about it too much. Move along…..



It kind of makes you wonder if Joss even understands what made his characters and his world so appealing and enduring for all these years. Its the same feeling I get when I look at George Lucas and his moronic Star Wars prequels and think "You don't even understand why people loved Star Wars so much, do you?"

Talking about bad writing in relation to Season 8 seems like a moot point by now.

But if a franchise I love falls down, I’m not going to affectionately defend it. Instead, I’m going to keep kicking it in the head until it gets back up and tries again.

And right now, my foot is getting sore.

 

[LilBufBuf]

Wait...

I don´t get it. How can people say they f*** because of their love and they deserve it. I thought you´re all glad they are under a magical influence and they don´t have their free will so they can´t be responsible for all that shit around them? How is this romantic or even a good thing? If they are controlled by an outsideforce it was a freakin mind and bodyrape nothing else. I´m confused.

No one here said that they're screwing because they're in love or because they deserve to have that connection. They are in love and they do want to be/deserve to be happy, but normally Buffy and Angel would logic themselves out of what they want in order to keep from causing any destruction. However, if their connection is actually something that is leading them to the answer they need in order to thwart the apocalypse, then maybe the right thing for them to do was what they did. Right now everyone is assuming that it was the wrong thing for them to do, because the world is crumbling around them and because of Angel's recent shenanigans. Something is obviously influencing them and their free will, but whatever it is, isn't producing feelings that don't exist, it's feeding on feelings that exist. No one is saying it's "omg romantic!" either. I haven't seen any Bangel fans say anything about it being romantic. It's a problematic situation.

Are the Bangel shippers so desperate to see them together that they are just ignoring the facts about how their sexathon began? Imo you can clearly see that the glow is something that overtook her body and forced her to have sex with Angel. It´s disgusting and horrifying. What if it wasn´t Buffys free will to enter Twilight? At the end of the issue she looks confused and i guess she can´t exactly remember what happened to her.

Nope, the "Bangel" shippers are quite capable of having a discussion about what's going on without ignoring the evidence. Usually when they try to have logical discussions on boards with other fans, it turns into a shipper war with people accusing them of being desperate to see B/A having sex. No one knows whether the glow is forcing them to have sex. One can assume that it is, but one can also assume that they have some autonomy. Buffy and Angel aren't simply attracted to each other because something is forcing them to be. They're attracted to each other and something is heightening that attraction. It remains to be seen whether or not she remembered what happened to her. My interpretation of that preview, was that she looked confused because moments before she was naked, flying through space with Angel and when she wakes up, she's clothed and on a completely different plain of existence.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

white avenger agrees: "The senior partners are a bunch of bitchy little girls..." Do I detect a fellow"Burn Notice" fan?

I´m watching all kinds of tv shows and burn notice is one of my favourites. 🙂

I liked all the enemies Buffy and Angel had to face since season 1. The mayor and Glory are still my favourites but i hated the first(lame) and Jasmine(pure hate).

The first wasn´t even faced by Buffy because it never showed up in the end of chosen. All we saw were sliced and diced minions. I believe it´s still outthere and watching her right now. Creepy!

Goddamn i hated Jasmine so much. Her attitude. Her voice. Her look. Everything screamed look at me i´m evil but everyone turned into a mindless zombies in a second. Connor proved me wrong. He was mindless the whole time even before Jasmine arrived.

Now we have the universe/god/Twilight himself or mickey mouse as the enemy. Wohoo i´m so excited. Not!

Abusing Buffy and Angel is so much fun so let´s create a planet for them. Sitting in the first row and watching the world burn. Hooray. Popcorn anyone? Our friends and the people look lonley down there. They need some company so let´s get some demons down there. Not enough? Allright! How about some natural disasters and loads of killed innocent people?

Hell they could even set off some nuclear bombs to keep the party rolling. It´s the apocalypse ladies and gentlemen everyone is invited. If you fight you die. If you run you die. If you stay where you are you die. Humans are just playtoys so let´s have some fun with them.

The world is overrun by demons and our only hope are two wannabe gods. Awesome!

I´m hoping Buffy wasn´t in control after the kiss with Angel but then it´s rape again and i´m stuck with that image of her being raped in my mind forever. Damn i need that mind erasing thingy from men in black.

I want a reasonable,logic and a really good explanation to all of it but i guess it´s total bogus about destiny,fate and all that nonsense again.

What´s the point of fighting if you´re not in control? The path is already written and the only choice you have to make is taking the left or the right way. Left means good and right means evil. It doesn´t matter which path you choose because it all leads to one thing. Death.

We all have to die but who decides who lives or dies? Mankind? No and the free will is a illusion because if the universe or whatever can overtake your body and mind at any time why they are not protecting us from bad choices or people. Are they just bored or was it a bet? Hey i bet you won´t kill your own race for another better race? Ha you lose i would and it´s already happening.

They decide you die you die. No trial. No questions. No defense attorney.

Before you call 911 or the mental hospital. 🙂

I´m only writing my thoughts about the innocent people of the buffyverse down. What would they think and do when they realise it´s the apocalypse? Praying to god(good luck with that mate)? Building a resistance? Rape and murder eachother?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I´m watching all kinds of tv shows and burn notice is one of my favourites. 🙂

I liked all the enemies Buffy and Angel had to face since season 1. The mayor and Glory are still my favourites but i hated the first(lame) and Jasmine(pure hate).

The first wasn´t even faced by Buffy because it never showed up in the end of chosen. All we saw were sliced and diced minions. I believe it´s still outthere and watching her right now. Creepy!

Goddamn i hated Jasmine so much. Her attitude. Her voice. Her look. Everything screamed look at me i´m evil but everyone turned into a mindless zombies in a second. Connor proved me wrong. He was mindless the whole time even before Jasmine arrived.

Now we have the universe/god/Twilight himself or mickey mouse as the enemy. Wohoo i´m so excited. Not!

Abusing Buffy and Angel is so much fun so let´s create a planet for them. Sitting in the first row and watching the world burn. Hooray. Popcorn anyone? Our friends and the people look lonley down there. They need some company so let´s get some demons down there. Not enough? Allright! How about some natural disasters and loads of killed innocent people?

Hell they could even set off some nuclear bombs to keep the party rolling. It´s the apocalypse ladies and gentlemen everyone is invited. If you fight you die. If you run you die. If you stay where you are you die. Humans are just playtoys so let´s have some fun with them.

The world is overrun by demons and our only hope are two wannabe gods. Awesome!

I´m hoping Buffy wasn´t in control after the kiss with Angel but then it´s rape again and i´m stuck with that image of her being raped in my mind forever. Damn i need that mind erasing thingy from men in black.

I want a reasonable,logic and a really good explanation to all of it but i guess it´s total bogus about destiny,fate and all that nonsense again.

What´s the point of fighting if you´re not in control? The path is already written and the only choice you have to make is taking the left or the right way. Left means good and right means evil. It doesn´t matter which path you choose because it all leads to one thing. Death.

We all have to die but who decides who lives or dies? Mankind? No and the free will is a illusion because if the universe or whatever can overtake your body and mind at any time why they are not protecting us from bad choices or people. Are they just bored or was it a bet? Hey i bet you won´t kill your own race for another better race? Ha you lose i would and it´s already happening.

They decide you die you die. No trial. No questions. No defense attorney.

Before you call 911 or the mental hospital. 🙂

I´m only writing my thoughts about the innocent people of the buffyverse down. What would they think and do when they realise it´s the apocalypse? Praying to god(good luck with that mate)? Building a resistance? Rape and murder eachother?

Wow you put forward your opinion in a really annoying way!

Why the hell would the universe ask if it's ok to evolve people?

If the Universe and Twilight are the same thing, it's the freaking universe, did it ask the monkeys if it was ok to turn them into us, your trying to put human logic on the thing that created human logic, it's illogical.

And exactly like LilBufBuf said, the Universe/Twilight is only going on the connection that was already there, their feelings are real and they want to have sex, it's Twilight that allowing it, this whole thing came about because Buffy and Angel were built to be together, they wanting each other is the gateway to this all happening. Rape is forcing someone to do something sexually when they don't want to, if your not sure what this is like have a look at Seeing Red again.

And people that like Buff/Angel together are happy that it's been stated by the universe that because Buffy evolved her other half did to and that was Angel. Their not happy because Buffy and Angel are having sex and destroying the world.

 

[LilBufBuf]

Sex sells. It’s a fact of life. Sex penetrates (no pun intended) every facet of modern media.

Sex sells in the US in particular because nudity and sex are taboo. This is the country with the largest/uber successful porn industry...I mean there's a reason for that. There's this weird relationship between how sex is viewed in this culture and sexualization of the media. In most European countries I've been to, nudity isn't really a huge problem and sex doesn't have the same taboos.

Are we supposed to believe that this ancient, sacred realm of Twilight is only admissible by achieving mutual orgasm? How does that work? There’s a million ways to convey these story concepts and plot beats here without the need for gratuitous sex.

I think what Kean was suggesting, was that it's admissible through this other worldly connection between two specific people. Part of that connection is a sexual connection, but obviously isn't the only reason that Buffy and Angel have reached "nirvana." They have reached this plain because of who they are, the power that they wield and the emotional connection they have. There are some cultures that do believe sexual experiences are linked to spiritual experiences. This isn't an entirely new concept. The French have a concept that links orgasm to spiritual release for example. And the Kama Sutra is all about linking sex to spirituality and philosophy. This concept is also discussed in Buddhism (Where there's a school of thought that believes erotic love is a profound experience that "opens the mine to a sense of awe and wonder akin to religious experience." They explore the idea that during sex, people transcend boundaries, leading to an experience of oneness. There's also the notion that the way to escape passion/lust is to go into the act of passion instead of retreating from it. They also discuss the male energies ("compassion and strength") and female energies ("wisdom, realization, understanding") that reside in everyone and how these energies can be united through sex.)

I don't know if the writer's intent was to borrow from these ideas, but they do exist and are centuries old. Willow also mentioned Yin (female) and Yang (male), which when joined, creates balance.

It also doesn’t help that it completely betrays the carefully constructed relationship dynamics between Angel and Buffy. Angel can have sex with Buffy now because he’s immortal and his soul’s immortal too. Err.. what? It’s magic! Don’t think about it too much. Move along…..

Well, there is a hierarchy when it comes to power and magic isn't there? Power can trump other power and magic can trump other magic, it's not completely impossible in the Verse. We've had a god on the show before and the only way to defeat her was for those as powerful as she is to trap her in a human body. When she was in her god-like state, very powerful magic was practically useless on her. There are magics that can affect a god, but they have to be powerful as the gods themselves. Since Buffy and Angel have sort of transcended magic, then the problem of the curse can logically no longer inhibit them. And if what the universe wants is for Buffy and Angel to be connected physically and emotionally, then having the curse be an issue would ruin that. I'm also guessing that the universe is probably a little stronger than a gypsy curse and as gods, Buffy and Angel are also more powerful than a gypsy curse.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Why the hell would the universe ask if it's ok to evolve people?

Why the hell should Hitler have had to ask if it's ok to weed out inferiors to give the Aryan master race room to spread out and rule the world in all their Nordic glory? He was only helping survival of the fittest along, right?

Oh right, it's because Hitler was evil (come on guys, give the poor Führer a break. The guy had a soul, after all, and there wasn't even an "-us" at the end of his name!). Besides, war and genocide are only cool when you get to glow and have cookies with your soulmate in space while doing it.

If the Universe and Twilight are the same thing, it's the freaking universe, did it ask the monkeys if it was ok to turn them into us, your trying to put human logic on the thing that created human logic, it's illogical.

The First Evil was as close to a Universal Force as we saw up to now (think about it, it was there before the homo sapiens ever appeared), and everyone thought it was a good idea to stop its plans. Mighty arrogant of that precocious little Slayer, wasn't it? Trying to put human morality on the thing that created human morality, it's illogical!

Rape is forcing someone to do something sexually when they don't want to, if your not sure what this is like have a look at Seeing Red again.

And once again, Spike gets stick for a minor mistake, while Angel keeps his Free Pass for starting apocalypse. Comment like that are of course not ship wars, it's "starting a ship war" when someone reacts to them and defends Spike. In the name of on-topicness shut the hell up about Seeing Red, tyvm.