Angel And Buffy

[LilBufBuf]

Why the hell should Hitler have had to ask if it's ok to weed out inferiors to give the Aryan master race room to spread out and rule the world in all their Nordic glory? He was only helping survival of the fittest along, right?

Oh right, it's because Hitler was evil (come on guys, give the poor Führer a break. The guy had a soul, after all, and there wasn't even an "-us" at the end of his name!). Besides, war and genocide are only cool when you get to glow and have cookies with your soulmate in space while doing it.

Godwin's Law

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Why the hell should Hitler have had to ask if it's ok to weed out inferiors to give the Aryan master race room to spread out and rule the world in all their Nordic glory? He was only helping survival of the fittest along, right?

Oh right, it's because Hitler was evil (come on guys, give the poor Führer a break. The guy had a soul, after all, and there wasn't even an "-us" at the end of his name!). Besides, war and genocide are only cool when you get to glow and have cookies with your soulmate in space while doing it.

Hitler is a human, the universe is the universe. I was arguing that it shouldn't have to ask if it's ok to evolve people.

The First Evil was as close to a Universal Force as we saw up to now (think about it, it was there before the homo sapiens ever appeared), and everyone thought it was a good idea to stop its plans. Mighty arrogant of that precocious little Slayer, wasn't it? Trying to put human morality on the thing that created human morality, it's illogical!

Once again there is a difference between a force of evil and The Universe.

And once again, Spike gets stick for a minor mistake, while Angel keeps his Free Pass for starting apocalypse. Comment like that are of course not ship wars, it's "starting a ship war" when someone reacts to them and defends Spike. In the name of on-topicness shut the hell up about Seeing Red, tyvm.

Eh no.

If you are talking about Angel in Season 5, at least you can see the good points to him starting it.

I pointed out to Buffy4ever2k10 what an actual attempted rape looks like and how it was different to what was happening to Buffy and Angel. I wont not use Seeing Red as an example because you have a problem with wanting to respond to something to defend Spike.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Originally Posted by Black Eye Guy
Rape is forcing someone to do something sexually when they don't want to, if your not sure what this is like have a look at Seeing Red again.

I know what a attempted rape looks like but how is that what happened any different? Imo the kiss was free will but after that the universe kicks in and forced them to have sex with eachother to enter the Twilight plain.

Having sex with a guy who killed loads of your friends(206 slayers) and causing the apocalypse is nothing what Buffy would do if she had her free will. We don´t know nothing about what really happened to them but it´s possible that she can´t remember anything after the kiss. It would be clear that she wasn´t aware of what she had done and if that´s the case it´s a mind and bodyrape. We have to wait for the next panel to know what´s really going on.

That´s all. It´s just a theory and i think it could be true.

I never said that you all have to believe me what i say because i´m just writing my thoughts and theories down.

Many innocent people died and will die because of what they did. If i were Buffy i couldn´t live with myself anymore and i´m curious how she reacts when she finally realises what they have done.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I know what a attempted rape looks like but how is that what happened any different? Imo the kiss was free will but after that the universe kicks in and forced them to have sex with eachother to enter the Twilight plain.

Having sex with a guy who killed loads of your friends(206 slayers) and causing the apocalypse is nothing what Buffy would do if she had her free will. We don´t know nothing about what really happened to them but it´s possible that she can´t remember anything after the kiss. It would be clear that she wasn´t aware of what she had done and if that´s the case it´s a mind and bodyrape. We have to wait for the next panel to know what´s really going on.

As I said rape is forcing something you don't want to do, the universe was going off what they did want to do!

Besides that, she had sex with Spike who was a mass murderer. And she said she wouldn't kill Dawn in Season 5, if she hadn't realized her blood would stop it, that would have been an apocalypse, so this is nothing we haven't seen her do before!

 

[InsaneMystic]

Hitler is a human, the universe is the universe. I was arguing that it shouldn't have to ask if it's ok to evolve people.

The Universe, as #34 portrays it, is a conscious being. As far as the Buffyverse goes, Darwinism has been disproved, the truth is soft-core Creationism. Something is killing off less desirable lifeforms by the whole species to make room for more desirable ones. If that's basically ok, there's nothing categorically morally wrong with Nazi eugenics, either. It may have been a little presumptious of Hitler to push it along, but genocide of less desirables is, in and of itself, fine and dandy. "God"'s been doing it for eons.

Once again there is a difference between a force of evil and The Universe.

Nonsense. Both are conscious forces.

If you don't have a clue about Darwinism, I recommend you to read Richard Dawkins' "The Blind Watchmaker" (Dawkins is, IMO, amateurish when he handles religion, but he IS a genius when it comes to explaining in understandable laymen's terms why Darwinism is a mighty convincing scientific theory.) He'd be the first to tell you that, while Darwinism explains the real universe fine and dandy, it's nonscientific bullcrap in the Buffyverse. Creationism has been established as fact in the comics - Dawkins would likely hate the Jossverse for it, but he wouldn't deny the obvious proof, he's too much of a devout empirical scientist for it.

If you are talking about Angel in Season 5, at least you can see the good points to him starting it.

I'm talking Angel in S8, thank you.

I pointed out to Buffy4ever2k10 what an actual attempted rape looks like and how it was different to what was happening to Buffy and Angel. I wont not use Seeing Red as an example because you have a problem with wanting to respond to something to defend Spike.

In that case please stop with the "keep the ship wars out of this" moderation. Attacking the common Bangel hypocrisy that Spike can do no right and Angel can do no wrong, even if they do the exact same thing, will have to remain fair game. The ball remains in the Bangels' side of the field to justify how they can ship the disgusting perversity that is Twuffy, while sputtering "soul = good, soulless = monster and-oh-Spike-attempted-to-rape-Buffy" like broken records.

Even if there had never been a relationship between Spike and Buffy to compare it against, Bangel/Twuffy as it now is would still be a disgusting perversion. I can't wrap my mind around why any sane person would even want to ship it.

You can ship whatever you want, be it Spuffy or not; heck, even though I can't understand its appeal at all, you're free to ship even Bangel if you pretend S8 never happened. But anyone who defends S8 Bangel has, in my opinion at least, serious problems that go beyond anything to do with characters written up by Joss Whedon. It may be a good idea for such people to seek out professional help.

 

[InsaneMystic]

As I said rape is forcing something you don't want to do, the universe was going off what they did want to do!

If Buffy actually wants to have sex with a mass murderer, I'm disgusted by her. Not to mention all the "boo hoo, Angel lost his soul" in S2, and "boo hoo, I feel so dirty for sleeping with a soulless monster" in S6. Grow up and lose the whining, Summers.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

The Universe, as #34 portrays it, is a conscious being. As far as the Buffyverse goes, Darwinism has been disproved, the truth is soft-core Creationism. Something is killing off less desirable lifeforms by the whole species to make room for more desirable ones. If that's basically ok, there's nothing categorically morally wrong with Nazi eugenics, either. It may have been a little presumptious of Hitler to push it along, but genocide of less desirables is, in and of itself, fine and dandy. "God"'s been doing it for eons.



Nonsense. Both are conscious forces.

If you don't have a clue about Darwinism, I recommend you to read Richard Dawkins' "The Blind Watchmaker" (Dawkins is, IMO, amateurish when he handles religion, but he IS a genius when it comes to explaining in understandable laymen's terms why Darwinism is a mighty convincing scientific theory.) He'd be the first to tell you that, while Darwinism explains the real universe fine and dandy, it's nonscientific bullcrap in the Buffyverse. Creationism has been established as fact in the comics - Dawkins would likely hate the Jossverse for it, but he wouldn't deny the obvious proof, he's too much of a devout empirical scientist for it.

I'm not gonna argue this back, because I'm still not sure which is the controlling factor Twilight or The Universe (or if their one in the same)

I'm talking Angel in S8, thank you.

Also no point in going for this either as we don't know nearly enough to know what Twilights been doing yet.

In that case please stop with the "keep the ship wars out of this" moderation. Attacking the common Bangel hypocrisy that Spike can do no right and Angel can do no wrong, even if they do the exact same thing, will have to remain fair game. The ball remains in the Bangels' side of the field to justify how they can ship the disgusting perversity that is Twuffy, while sputtering "soul = good, soulless = monster and-oh-Spike-attempted-to-rape-Buffy" like broken records.

Even if there had never been a relationship between Spike and Buffy to compare it against, Bangel/Twuffy as it now is would still be a disgusting perversion. I can't wrap my mind around why any sane person would even want to ship it.

You can ship whatever you want, be it Spuffy or not; heck, even though I can't understand its appeal at all, you're free to ship even Bangel if you pretend S8 never happened. But anyone who defends S8 Bangel has, in my opinion at least, serious problems that go beyond anything to do with characters written up by Joss Whedon. It may be a good idea for such people to seek out professional help.

All I said about Spike was to see an attempted rape, go watch Seeing Red - That is fact, there is an attempted rape in that scene, I can say that all I want because that is there, if you start arguing about what ways that not an attempted rape or whatever else you start another thread.

Like I said I won't leave out mentioning there was an attempted rape in SR because people will want to argue back to that, we'd pretty much not be able to say anything about either character ever!
Derailing a thread is: I can say something and if you pick up on one small part of what I've said, in a post and turn the thread into debating that. Thats changing the topic completely.

I said earlier to go watch Seeing Red to see an attempted rape and you've spouted all this stuff about how Bangels feel Angel does no wrong and Spike is all wrong.

And it's not up to Bangels to "justify how they can ship the disgusting perversity that is Twuffy", as is anyone actually shipping them?
I've seen loads of comments about how people are glad that the universe choose Angel as Buffys other half, not so many comments about how great their relationship is now.

You've gone and put allot of words in peoples mouths, and no one else is saying it.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Black Eye Guy agrees: People seem to be saying that allot, NOW, back when it was Spike and Buffy it didn't come up allot!

If I had been on here back when S6 aired, you would have heard me saying pretty much the same thing about Spuffy as I do now about Twuffy. On first airing, I stopped watching after "Wrecked" because I couldn't bear where the show was going. I don't trust the sanity of people who think S6 Spuffy is a beautiful love story, either. (And they're few and far between, even smack in the middle of the Spuffy subforum.)

All I said about Spike was to see an attempted rape, go watch Seeing Red - That is fact, there is an attempted rape in that scene, I can say that all I want because that is there, if you start arguing about what ways that not an attempted rape or whatever else you start another thread.

Been there, done that, left the link, and the babble still goes on. Bored now.

It is not fact that Spike attempted to rape Buffy. Period.

It's just very nifty to bring that one up as first-choice example for rape because, hey, dissing Spike is always a bonus. "This isn't rape, Bangel want to have sex - even if Buffy probably doesn't quite know what she's doing... erm, uh, hey, look at evil Spike!"

And it's not up to Bangels to "justify how they can ship the disgusting perversity that is Twuffy", as is anyone actually shipping them?
I've seen loads of comments about how people are glad that the universe choose Angel as Buffys other half, not so many comments about how great their relationship is now.

There is precious little sign of Bangels being disgusted by Angel's actions, let alone abandon a ship that's become a farce by any sane standards (if I had ever been a Bangel, I wouldn't be a Bangel anymore, that much I can guarantee you). Instead, there is lots of "yay the universe is a Bangel" (so who cares if Angel is a mass murderer and can live with the world going to hell as long as he gets into Buffy's pants, even if we use the same arguments to diss Spike/Spuffy at every chance we get). But what else is to be expected from the most white-washed character in the verse.

If you don't like Twuffy, there may be hope for you yet. (sw) But in that case, I'd like to know what on Earth gives you any indication that Buffy is meant to be with Angel. You can only point to Twuffy as proof for that, so it's all pretty heavy on the "have your cake and eat it, too". 😉

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

I just want to know why Angel chose to become Twilight in the first place?

I thought alot about it but i can´t come up with any logical explanation. The things he had done in AtF and Aftermath are now completly meaningless because of his actions as Twilight. Was the vision the trigger or

Spoiler

Connors death(don´t panic he is fine)?

What could possibly changed him so much? Did he just decided to ally himself with an evil force to wipe out mankind for fun?

I know Angel would do anything for the greater good but now he crossed the line.

He tortured Buffy and her slayers for a whole year. 206 slayers got killed during that time and loads of inncoent people died too.
He said he was doing this to hold down the bodycount low as possible and it sounds noble at first but Buffy and their slayers got only attacked by his army. There was no special taskforce from any other country to stop the slayers. They got attacked by his army only. If it really was the whole world who wanted all the slayers dead wouldn´t there be more enemies? Was Twilights army a world wide taskforce?

The other thing that bugs me now is how much of all the things that happened around the world was really his plan? Blowing up the castle and the vampy cats(still stupid imo) was Warrens idea wasn´t it? Amy put the love spell on Buffy. The general was commanding the troops. So Angel wasn´t responsible for all the bad things but why needs a force like Twilight a human army in the first place? I´m not sure how much control Angel had as Twilight but it´s possible he was just used by Twilight the whole time.

Though i still dislike him. Sorry pal no redemption for you this time.

This reminds me more and more of the first. No corporial form but manipulating people to do its bidding and remember Caleb. Everytime he merged with the first he got stronger and stronger. Angel is a vampire and a lot stronger then Caleb as a human and the effect of merging himself with the first could be different. What if the new master race are the old Turok-Han?

The universe as the enemy sounds still lame but who knows for sure. Maybe the universe is manipulated by the first too or the universe is just a illusion. A simple mindgame to trick Buffy and Angel.

I´ve got another question. Are all hellmouths filled with Turok-Hans or was it just the one in Sunnydale?

 

[crazysoulless]

The reason other countries didn't attack the Slayers is because Angel spoke to them as Twilight and convinced them that he could handle the situation. He made them believe that he hated or feared the Slayers too and would be able to take them out without other countries having to go to focus on waging a war or using up finances or getting their hands dirty.

I think the Sunnydale Hellmouth was the only one filled with Turak-Hans. The FE was spending most of It's time in Sunnydale during that year since the person It thought had the power to stop it was Buffy (she was also the reason It gained power and decided to put It's power into motion). It took one Ubervamp and then made a legion out of it.

How long is it for the characters in S8? Between The Long Way Home #1 and Twilight #2? It could be as little as six or seven months.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

If I had been on here back when S6 aired, you would have heard me saying pretty much the same thing about Spuffy as I do now about Twuffy. On first airing, I stopped watching after "Wrecked" because I couldn't bear where the show was going. I don't trust the sanity of people who think S6 Spuffy is a beautiful love story, either. (And they're few and far between, even smack in the middle of the Spuffy subforum.)

Personally, I love S6, especially when it comes to Spuffy. But I don't find it to be beautiful, romantic, pretty, or even lovable. I find it to be intriguing and very cutting emotionally. 🙂

It is not fact that Spike attempted to rape Buffy. Period.

I find that to be very controversial. On one hand, somebody could argue that it wasn't actually an "Attempted rape" because Spike, in his mind, wasn't meaning to rape her. He was trying to give her what he thought that she wanted and needed. Spike was very twisted and screwed up, but I feel that it's fair to say that he didn't think "Oh, how 'bout I go and attempt to rape Buffy today?". On the other hand, whether he was in his right mind and was actually thinking that he was attempting to rape her or not, the fact of the matter is that he was. He may not have thought that he was, but he did. That fact is pretty undeniable. It's doesn't matter if he didn't mean to; He forced himself on her after she begged him to stop. That's attempted rape, plain and simple. And I don't believe that it should be defended.

It should be explained/interpreted though. I can certainly understand why Spike forced himself on her, and, whether it's "Victim-blaming" or not, Buffy did have a role in it. Still, Spike had no right to do that to her.

It's just very nifty to bring that one up as first-choice example for rape because, hey, dissing Spike is always a bonus. "This isn't rape, Bangel want to have sex - even if Buffy probably doesn't quite know what she's doing... erm, uh, hey, look at evil Spike!"

I think that you're starting to take this issue personally, and now you're lashing out at the Bangels in general. Bangels make up a huge portion of BB, and they are all fabulous, intelligent, wonderful, and overall lovable people who enjoy the dynamic of Buffy and Angel. You really shouldn't bash an entire group of people with generalizations like that. They're just excited that their 'ship has a chance after years of people saying that Bangel is "Highschool love" and that it will never last and such. Although I disagree with them, I can definitely see where they're coming from.

There is precious little sign of Bangels being disgusted by Angel's actions, let alone abandon a ship that's become a farce by any sane standards (if I had ever been a Bangel, I wouldn't be a Bangel anymore, that much I can guarantee you). Instead, there is lots of "yay the universe is a Bangel" (so who cares if Angel is a mass murderer and can live with the world going to hell as long as he gets into Buffy's pants, even if we use the same arguments to diss Spike/Spuffy at every chance we get). But what else is to be expected from the most white-washed character in the verse.

Yeah, I guess that I can see why some people are happy, but I'm pretty put-off by this... And I also find it pretty hypocritical to hate Spuffy S6 sex for being so graphic, and saying that that's one of the top reasons for disliking Spuffy, and then turning around and saying that they love the even MORE graphic Bangel sex, but whatever. I'm not them and their opinion has no influence on my life so I really don't care very much. 😀

 

[InsaneMystic]

Personally, I love S6, especially when it comes to Spuffy. But I don't find it to be beautiful, romantic, pretty, or even lovable. I find it to be intriguing and very cutting emotionally. 🙂

You love it, but don't find it lovable. (Not trying to be snarky, but that one made me grin. 😉)

I find that to be very controversial. On one hand, somebody could argue that it wasn't actually an "Attempted rape" because Spike, in his mind, wasn't meaning to rape her. He was trying to give her what he thought that she wanted and needed. Spike was very twisted and screwed up, but I feel that it's fair to say that he didn't think "Oh, how 'bout I go and attempt to rape Buffy today?". On the other hand, whether he was in his right mind and was actually thinking that he was attempting to rape her or not, the fact of the matter is that he was. He may not have thought that he was, but he did. That fact is pretty undeniable. It's doesn't matter if he didn't mean to; He forced himself on her after she begged him to stop. That's attempted rape, plain and simple. And I don't believe that it should be defended.

I'll try it to be the last time to say it here (as there's the well known other threads for it)...
Spike had no reason to believe he was doing anything else than initiating consensual sex. That is NOT attempted rape. It turned out to be a rape experience for Buffy, but it was not a rape attempt by Spike. (Anyone who argues otherwise, please look up the meaning of "attempt" in the dictionary.) He made an honest and forgivable mistake without bad intention, and took an extraordinary amount of responsibility for it. Seeing Red makes Spike a shining hero, not a despicable monster.

And, as long as even one person in the world can argue convincingly against a statement, that statement is NOT "fact". So, once and for all people: It is NOT fact that Spike attempted to rape Buffy. Accept it and get over it.
(Neither is it fact that he did not, as hundreds of people keep arguing he did. And even though they do so pretty unconvincingly IMO and keep running into contradictions in their logic, they keep saying he did, so it is obviously open to interpretation. The jury is out on this one.)

It should be explained/interpreted though. I can certainly understand why Spike forced himself on her, and, whether it's "Victim-blaming" or not, Buffy did have a role in it. Still, Spike had no right to do that to her.

100% agreement to all of that statement. It was an honest mistake with no trace of bad intentions, but a mistake it was. Accuse him of "reckless endangerment", which is certainly is an offense (even though a pretty minor one, especially forsomeone with no conscience), but NOT of something as vile as "attempted rape" - you will find me passionately defending his innocence.

I think that you're starting to take this issue personally, and now you're lashing out at the Bangels in general. Bangels make up a huge portion of BB, and they are all fabulous, intelligent, wonderful, and overall lovable people who enjoy the dynamic of Buffy and Angel. You really shouldn't bash an entire group of people with generalizations like that. They're just excited that their 'ship has a chance after years of people saying that Bangel is "Highschool love" and that it will never last and such. Although I disagree with them, I can definitely see where they're coming from.

I just hate hypocrisy... and when I see hypocrisy in people who like something I can't fathom the appeal of, I go harsh.

I don't think I generalized, but if I did come across as saying all Bangels were hypocrites with psychological problems, I honestly apologize for that. The majority of Bangels indubitably are fine people, and even if I can't "get" how they like a ship, in which, for personal biographical reasons, I can see hardly any merit at all, I don't think they need professional help for that, itself. 🙂

Still, if someone takes their Bangel love to the extreme of whitewashing Angel for heinous crimes while slandering Spike for minor misdemeanors, I will not stop to attack their viewpoint. I passionately hate hypocrisy and double standards, no matter if they come from a Bangel or not. You'll have me trying to convince them of the obvious error of their ways (the error of rabid hypocrisy, not the error of Bangelism 😉 ), until my dying breath. *resolve face*

 

[LilBufBuf]

I'll try it to be the last time to say it here (as there's the well known other threads for it)...
Spike had no reason to believe he was doing anything else than initiating consensual sex. That is NOT attempted rape. It turned out to be a rape experience for Buffy, but it was not a rape attempt by Spike. (Anyone who argues otherwise, please look up the meaning of "attempt" in the dictionary.) He made an honest and forgivable mistake without bad intention, and took an extraordinary amount of responsibility for it. Seeing Red makes Spike a shining hero, not a despicable monster.

Let me try this once again. Intent does not matter. Attempted rape is still attempted rape, whether or not someone meant to force themselves on someone else. They might not have understood what they were doing to the other person, but it's still attempted rape. They might feel terrible for it later, but they still attempted to force themselves on someone else. The excuse of "but, I misunderstood her screams of "no" and her struggling because we've had rough sex before" does not matter. A person might have had an aggressive sexual relationship with another person, but consent (though it might have not have been explicitly stated) was at the very least was implied in that sexual relationship.

Here's an example: Two people are married and have a bdsm type of relationship. They have an understanding that they are willing participants in this bdsm relationship. They tie each other up, engage in rough sex play, but at no point does either of them actually refuse/cry out/explicitly state that they don't feel like being tied up etc. One day, the wife says "I'm tired. I don't want to do this." The husband tries to entice her and she says "I'm serious, I don't want to, please stop." She doesn't relent, she doesn't give in to his attentions, she doesn't say "hey, that's cheating," and she doesn't say "okay, you win, I'm turned on." She explicitly says "I don't want to do this."

The husband becomes overzealous and ties her up and she says "Please stop. Stop. No. I don't want to" and he still tries to make her have sex with him. She screams out "no" and she struggles with him and yet he persists. She eventually fights him off and he realizes what he has done.

It's still attempted rape. No matter if they were married. No matter if they had had an aggressive sexual relationship. No matter if last week, they were playing coy/hard to get with each other in the bedroom. When someone says "no" and their face is obviously twisted in pain and they're crying and trying to fight you off, then it means NO.

The fact that Buffy previously accepted his attentions and never physically fought him off should clarify this situation. Before, they were both willing participants. In "Seeing Red", she wasn't a willing participant. She clearly said no. She clearly meant no. She was clearly struggling to push him off of her. This was after she had ended their relationship. After they had stopped having a physically aggressive and emotionally abusive relationship. Spike simply didn't except no for an answer.

 

[white avenger]

I think that the whole point of the attempted rape scene in "Seeing Red" was that when Spike said, "I'll MAKE you feel..." he, with no soul, which in the Whedonverse is supposed to mean basically no conscience, saw absolutely nothing wrong with what he was doing, any more than he had seen anything wrong with what he and Buffy had been doing since they first tore that house down. He did, however, realize exactly what it meant in the instant that Buffy finally pushed him away. That's what the look of astonished realization meant. He suddenly realized just what he was doing, and he remembered what he had told her the year before, just before the final battle with Glory. He WAS a monster. That's what stopped him, that's what finally provided what MUST have been the final incentive to do what he had been considering for some time: regaining his soul.

Why do I say that he had been considering that action for some time previously? Simply because it was too complicated an action to undertake on a whim. There had to be plans made, details to be recognized and prepared for. Transportation to and from Africa, for example, for a vampire without unlimited funds or resources HAS to be thought out carefully and researched. This wasn't like his and Angel's trips to England and Italy in the W&H company jet a couple of years later. (Personally, I think that agents of a force as powerful as, but opposed to, the First Evil were responsible for his travel arrangements, and even possibly Lurkie was in their employ. A vampire with a soul was required to wear the amulet into the hellmouth, and for whatever reason, they knew that Angel, for whatever the reason, wasn't the right one for the job)

Regardless of that speculation, however, what Spike did WAS, whether he immediately realized it or not, attempted rape. He was attempting by force to have sex with Buffy against her will. But in recognizing that as what it was, we also have to recognize the fact that what Angel, or whoever is pulling the strings to Twilight/Angel, has succeeded in doing what Spike only ATTEMPTED to do, but instead of using physical force, he or it used some sort of supernatural manipulation, the equivalent of drugging a victim in order to have sex. Because, as much as Buffy might WANT to make love with Angel, in her right mind, with no assurance whatsoever that what happened in Season 2 wouldn't happen again, she WOULD NOT have willingly had sex with him. Non-consensual sex, in both cases. Spike only attempted what Angel has accomplished.

Without some very good explanation, yet forthcoming, it appears that it is Angel who is the rapist, whereas Spike never was.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Click me. I'm a link to a lonely little post who cares about threads getting back on topic.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Um... What were were we talking about, again? (sw)

Right, yes, Stuffy and Snaily- Wait, no, I mean Tuffy and Dangly, wait, no, I mean Buffy and Twangel!

Yes. OK. On track.

Well, to be quite frank, I find their little sex marathon to be nonsensical and completely out of nowhere. As WA said, if Buffy is being triggered by "The Universe" or whatever, then this IS attempted rape. If not... Well, I've just lost a bit of faith in Buffy. 🙁