Angel and Wesley...

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Hale Caesar

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Who did you sympathize with more during the end when Angel tried to kill Wesley in the hospital bed?

On one hand, Wesley was mislead and was only trying to do what he thought was the greater good. But, Angel had his son stolen from him, the only thing in his life that was pure and made him happy (well, you can count Buffy if you want lol)
 
Well, I'm biased towards Wesley, so I sympathise more with him. Maybe if I was a parent I'd feel more for Angel, but really, in that scene, I'm just thinking "No!!! Don't kill Wesley!!!"
 
MandaMeena
MandaMeena
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Definitely Wes. He was trying to do the right thing all along, and it resulted in all his friends abandoning him, which was awful 🙁 maybe his actions went a bit too far, but he had entirely good intentions.

Obviously I still felt bad for Angel, losing his son was a terrible ordeal. But I was SO shocked at his reaction to Wesley. I never thought I'd see the day!

But overall, definitely Wes. He didn't deserve that!
 
My sympathies lie entirely with Wesley, if for no other reason than the fact that he was doing what he did for what he thought was the greater good (sound familiar, Angel supporters?) Angel couldn't accept that fact, and, to the best of my knowledge, never forgave Wes or apologized for trying to kill him.

While I can accept Angel's grief and anger at that moment, being a father myself, I can NOT forgive the fact that Angel, the man notorious for making major decisions affecting others without giving them the benefit of input or even prior knowledge, so obviously can't take it anywhere near as well as he can dish it out, AND he doesn't learn anything from the experience, because he continues to do the same thing later on.
 
M
Ms.Trick
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EvilBuffy
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I'm gonna go against the majority here and say that I'm mostly on Angel's side.

Of course I feel bad for Wesley, he was trying to do what was right and save both Angel and Connor, and I don't think he really deserved to have Angel trying to kill him for trying to do the right thing.

But in saying that, Wesley went about it all wrong. He kept everything he found to himself, concocted schemes and plans to get Connor away from Angel and did everything on his own, instead of confiding in his friends. If he had told the team what he'd uncovered, what he'd found out, they could have come up with a good, solid plan to protect Connor. Angel should have been made aware of the prophecy at least. But he didn't. He acted alone and his plan came back to bite him in the ass and they lost Connor anyway.
 
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zobothehobo
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xfivebyfive
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brinkster130
brinkster130
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Angel. Wesley should have told someone, I don't care if he thought he was doing the right thing... he did the wrong thing. And Angel's son is who paid the price. Angel had every right to be pissed and if he HAD killed him, I wouldn't have been upset with Angel at all.
 
Taake
Taake
agreed!
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xfivebyfive
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brinkster130
brinkster130
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I'm on Angel's side here. I mean I feel bad for Wesley, he really got the raw end of that deal and he really was only trying to do the right thing, but push comes to shove - like Lyri said - he went about it the wrong way from the start.
And in the end he only has his own actions to blame.

Whereas Angel, in that moment, having lost the child he never thought he would be able to have as a direct result of the actions of someone whose loyalty he thought he could depend on - yeah, I can completely understand him 'snapping'

It's a rotten situation but Angel's grief far out-weighs Wesley's regrets to me.
 
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zobothehobo
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xfivebyfive
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brinkster130
brinkster130
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I'm completely on Angel's side. In that moment I even wanted him to kill Wesley. During that arc with Baby Connor and Holtz, it just infuriates me what Wesley does. Yes he was trying to do what he thought was right, but he didnt trust his friends. If he had told them maybe things could have turned out differently. I wouldn't blame him if he had at least told one of them. But he didnt.

Angel had just lost his son, I'm not a parent but I can't even imagine how painful it must be. My sympathies will always lie with Angel in this situation.
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
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Taake
Taake
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zobothehobo
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Angel. Absolutely Angel. He had just lost his son because of Wesley's actions, of course he is going to be feeling upset, devastated, enraged, betrayed and so on.

Sure Wesley was trying to do what was right, but he was going about it all wrong. He chose not to trust his friends with a very serious issue. Wesley could have opened up to Cordy. Cordy has seen and dealt with Angelus before, she is well aware of how dangerous Angel/Angelus could be; she would have taken the prophecy seriously. I also think Fred, Gunn and Lorn would have done everything they could have to helped save Connor in this situation, but again Wesley decided he couldn't trust them. I really don't understand why Wesley thought he had to act alone in this situation when it came to his friends but was ok with trusting/working with Justine.

---------- Post added at 09:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 AM ----------

Thinking about his situation always brings up a question about the prophecy for me.

Should Wesley have know that prophecies don't always tell you everything?

In BTVS s1 there was the prophecy that Buffy was going to die, then Xander brought her back. Prophecy wasn't 100% accurate. Glies probably would have made a record of that and Wesley being a member of the Watchers Council should have been made aware of this when he became Buffy/Faith's watcher right?
 
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xfivebyfive
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zobothehobo
I completely agree, especially about the Wesley should have known about prophecies...
Well, obviously Angel's grief over losing his son (or so he thought) is more powerful than whatever regrets Wesley may have.

Still, I sympathize with Wesley here. He took the most rational course of action (which isn't necessarily the best course of action) and some crazy Buffy-wannabe and a time-travelling demon who could rewrite history came back to bite him in the ass.
 
I'm neutral on this one.

Angel's first reaction is understandable. I'm not a parent myself, of course, so I couldn't possibly comprehend his grief but I can get a clear picture of it. He'd just lost his son, the person he loved more than he didn't know why it had happened or why his best friend had played such a vital part in it. Of course he's going to be angry.

That being said, Wesley's actions were also understandable. Now think about it this way: with Connor running around, what were the chances of Angel achieving perfect happiness? What about when Connor said his first word, or crawled for the first time? Would it be enough for him to momentarily forget all of the horrible things he done as Angelus? After hundreds of years of pure loneliness, this must have been incredible for him, so I think it would be, and I'd be very surprised if Wesley and the rest of the gang hadn't been worried about this themselves. Angel had been acting a little bit odd even before all this.

Then, a prophecy (which is basically a confirmation, in Wesleys mind) shows up and tells him that this will happen. He can't tell Cordy cause she's left, can't tell Fred or Gunn cause they'll insist that Angel is told...doubt there will be some rash decisions.

And, you can't forget that Welsey was going to ignore the prochey before the big earthquake. That was enough to scare him into thinking that Angel was going to hurt Connor and he was going to do it soon.

And Welsey knew that if Angel ever hurt Connor he'd never be able to forgive himself or Wesley for not telling him.

What I mean is, Wesley was going to give up his whole life just so he could protect Connor, and by extension, protect Angel.

So I think that when Wesley intentions were reveled, he should have been forgiven right away, maybe not by Angel but by the gang at least.

I can understand Angel, and maybe Cordelia but I thought it was awful the way Fred and Gunn just turned away from him.

But hey, without all this we'd never have Wesley/Lilah. 😀
 
I'm quite neutral on this one. I absolutely loved the scene when Angel attempts to kill Wesley. That makes me sound morbid or that I hate Wes, but I mean because it's so powerful, the sort of thing that gives you goosebumps.

I can see both sides of it, and I don't like one character more or less either. Angel loses his son, and Wesley loses his friends. Pretty dark time for them both, but created some great character development.
 
I think that at that moment, I sympathized more with Wesley because he was the one at the receiving end of an evil pillow 😀. But overall in the whole situation with Connor, I am definately more on Angel's side.
 
I'm on wesley's side (and not just because in my mind, we're married 🙂 ) I mean, wes only wanted to protect angel and connor. he knew that if angel killed connor, he would destroy himself. and how was wes supposed to know that the prophesy was fake? i completely sympathaize with him. and i would never ever thought that angel would try to kill wesley. some people might say well why didn't wesley go to cordy or someone, but fred or gunn or cordy would probably have told angel and wesley couldn't know how angel would have reacted. angel might have refused to listen, and then if he killed connor, connor's blood would be on wesley's hands, so to speak. so i'm completely with wesley.
 
O
OhWow
Plus why would he go to Gunn or Fred? They all had a little love triangle goin on there..
120 per cent on Angel's side. I love Wesley, and I absolutely think that he got the shitty end of the stick, but he should have a) told somebody about his fears and b) questioned the prophecy in the first place. I'm not a parent, but there are kids I love very, very much and if I imagine someone doing something like that to them, no matter how pure their intentions, I would NEVER forgive them. Not in a gazillion years. And if you take into account that parental love is probably multiplied by about ten thousand, I can well imagine that I would be willing to kill for my kid. Which, admittedly, is a scary thought.
 
mayfever said:
b) questioned the prophecy in the first place.
Click to expand...

I'm just going to throw it out there that in Lullby Wesley was just going to ignore the prophecy when the giant earthquake happened. I'm probably going to be in the minority here, but if Wesley had just ignored the prophecy even after that, I would have been mad at him.

I think, above everything Wesley was just afraid. He can't be calm and collected Watcher guy all the time, and believing that your best friend is going to kill his son soon has got to be a terrifying burden to hold.
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
but a burden he chose to hold on his own
Honestly, I felt more horrible for Wesley. The situation was crappy either way, but poor Wesley lost everything because he bought into an ancient prophecy that turned out to be wrong. Of course it was heartbreaking for Angel to lose his son, as well, but Wesley lost a lot more. People argue that Angel lost his family, so that means more, but the AI team was Wesley's family as well, even if not by blood. Not only that, but Wesley was probably questioning his own intelligence and ability to be of use in the good fight, and his place in the world without any friends around him. His whole life crumbled around him. Angel, at least, still had people there to comfort him and help him in his quest to get Connor back.
 
I'm completely on Wesley's side..I was so mad at Angel for trying to kill him. Wes was prolly really freaked out by the prophecy plus the creepy little visions that he was having about Angel and Connor. I mean really...how would you expect someone to react to this..the numerous hours spent on this single prophecy, the plain shock of discovering the truth, , then dealing with those visions of Angel killing his son..It was way too much for him to bare ( and yes he did not have to bare it alone, but I think he was afraid to tell anyone..afraid of their reactions or if they would not believe him) And lets be honest..he was driving himself insane. So Wes, not completely sane, attempts to save Angel's son and even to save Angel..he would never forgive himself for killing his child. He takes off, gets his throat slit and nearly dies only to find his best friend, his business partner, the father of the child he was trying to keep alive, smothering him in his hospital bed. 🙁 Poor Wes.
 
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