Angel: AtF #9

[LawgSkrak]

I think they should stick the the 12ish issues, then cancel it and do a REAL Season 6, treating After the Fall as a Summer Movie Special that takes place in between Seasons 5 and 6.

Then they could set the comic series up in the same format as Buffy Season 8.

 

[Superstar]

I think they should stick the the 12ish issues, then cancel it and do a REAL Season 6

As my 100th post (go me!), I'll address this with a reply.

IDW does not make long running series - ever. They have none on their resume.
Go to their website and see. Zero count on a continuing regular run series.
They don't like long running series. They like lots of little ones.
Part of my joke earlier on the numerous titles. They also like lots of 1st issues and variant covers.
This is how they make their money. That and TPB's.

You will not see a long running Angel series from them. You will not see a long running series on anything from them.
Even the flagship that put them on the map; 30 Days of Night does not rate a long running series commitment.
That thought process of a regular series is not in their business model.
They stay at low runs for easy to manage TPB conversion.
I'm not necessarily knocking the model they use, it obviously works well for them.
I'm just very realistic is all.

You can give up any hope of what you are wishing for right now and save yourself the disappointment.
It was a nice thought, but it has a snowball's chance in HelLA of ever happening.

 

[LawgSkrak]

Well, then Angel should just go back to dark Horse. lol

As my 100th post (go me!), I'll address this with a reply.

IDW does not make long running series - ever. They have none on their resume.
Go to their website and see. Zero count on a continuing regular run series.
They don't like long running series. They like lots of little ones.
Part of my joke earlier on the numerous titles. They also like lots of 1st issues and variant covers.
This is how they make their money. That and TPB's.

You will not see a long running Angel series from them. You will not see a long running series on anything from them.
Even the flagship that put them on the map; 30 Days of Night does not rate a long running series commitment.
That thought process of a regular series is not in their business model.
They stay at low runs for easy to manage TPB conversion.
I'm not necessarily knocking the model they use, it obviously works well for them.
I'm just very realistic is all.

You can give up any hope of what you are wishing for right now and save yourself the disappointment.
It was a nice thought, but it has a snowball's chance in HelLA of ever happening.

 

[thegifting]

Well, not really - Cordelia has only been alluded to (beautifully, but still only an allusion), Fred is reappearing periodically probably due to the influence of 'hell' on Illyria (and its doubtful if this will be permanent post-hell) and Wes is a ghost because he is still in service to W&H - which we have a precedent for in both Holland Manners and Lilah...

Exactly (,and you're one of my favorite posters here). Of the "recently" departed, the only one in charge of their afterlife is Charles. Illyria isn't becoming Fred- it's still just a modulation of her form, and we knew she began adopting Fred's essence as her own at the end of S5. And what is Wes doing? He converses and sometimes provides a distraction- and the only time we've actually seen Wesely as the real Wes, the one he became as a man, was in issue 7, and was handled with unbelievable grace. And I couldn't agree more about Cordy's refrence being utterly gorgeous, but even if she shows up it's not like she's coming back from the dead (And I have no ****ing idea why people keep saying that), as I think S3, S4, and "You're Welcome" made it very clear that Cordelia is, and has been, the most 'living' of the entire group.

Is there actually confusion about this? Really?
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IDW does not make long running series - ever. They have none on their resume.

You are completely wrong. One of the best books released today by any company is IDW's Fallen Angel, and it has a great back catalogue, and amazing future ahead of it.

 

[Exitmat]

Exactly (,and you're one of my favorite posters here). Of the "recently" departed, the only one in charge of their afterlife is Charles. Illyria isn't becoming Fred- it's still just a modulation of her form, and we knew she began adopting Fred's essence as her own at the end of S5. And what is Wes doing? He converses and sometimes provides a distraction- and the only time we've actually seen Wesely as the real Wes, the one he became as a man, was in issue 7, and was handled with unbelievable grace. And I couldn't agree more about Cordy's refrence being utterly gorgeous, but even if she shows up it's not like she's coming back from the dead (And I have no ****ing idea why people keep saying that), as I think S3, S4, and "You're Welcome" made it very clear that Cordelia is, and has been, the most 'living' of the entire group.

Is there actually confusion about this? Really?

Fred is not a modulation as she was for Illyria in S5. Read issue 9 again.

Illyria: "She's here. I try to push her down--but then I see the faces of those she loved... and she fights back."

Wesley: "There's no logical reason for any part of Fred to be inside you."

Illyria: "I have told myself that countless times. But here she is, infecting me inside... and out."

I don't see how Lynch could have made it any clearer that Illyria is not modulating Fred, and that she lost control of herself to what is (somehow) left of Fred.

As for Wesley, whether he's playing a small or big role, or what he even looks like is irrelevant--it's still the same man inside, and he isn't exactly dead. It most definitely counts as a return.

On Cordelia: there have been preview lines about Angel fighting for someone else's life he never thought he would see again in issue 10, as well as statements made about a "big return." Also, I too loved how they hinted at Cordelia in issue 9. I just don't think I'm ready to see her return.

If you like the returns I totally don't blame you. Lynch is handling them very well and they all make sense, story-wise. Personally I just think it's too much, and that all of them together are kind of cheapening the deaths and the sacrifices the characters made. To each their own though. 🙂

Either way, though, it's hard to argue that Fred, Wes, Gunn, and (if things play out as expected) Cordy didn't all return from the dead in some very explicit form.

 

[thegifting]

Apparently so. Fred is not a modulation as she was for Illyria in S5. Read issue 9 again.

Illyria: "She's here. I try to push her down--but then I see the faces of those she loved... and she fights back."

Wesley: "There's no logical reason for any part of Fred to be inside you."

Illyria: "I have told myself that countless times. But here she is, infecting me inside... and out."

Ummm, okay. But that doesn't mean it's Fred. Here's my S5 opinion from a thread.

Both Fred and Illyria were crying.
The line where Fred ends and Illyria begins became very hazy, as even Fred's prefrences about the world came out of Illyria, and she was completely natural and accepting of it. (In either Power Play or Not Fade Away, Illyria tells Gunn that she doesn't find him unpleasent to her eyes.)
Beyond that, there's a lot of arguments that say that Illyria isn't still "Illyria". The Mutari Generator, sure. She even says that she is her power, implying anything less would be a different being.
Looking at text in the show, though, it's deeper than that. Much.
In "A Hole In The World", near the end of the episode, Fred is on her bed and begins hallucinating, points to Wesley and says "I'm with him!" After she calms down she takes Wesley's hand, places it on her heart, and says "He's with me." It's very clear to me that the demon god Illyria became tied to Wesley before she even destroyed Fred's soul by ressurecting, and becoming bound to Fred ("I could change it if I cared to", is what she said, I believe, in refrence to that subject).
Which, also, points to the notion that Fred and Illyria are one being. If you placed, say, a stack of paper of top of a pizza, inside of a box, then cooked it, would the ash not taint and be a factor in all the changes that would then occur to everything having to do with the pizza?
The paper would be Fred's soul, the pizza is capacity of life, the box is the physical shell, and the oven is Illyria. Even though Fred's soul may have been burnt, as paper would be, all that Illyria was changed the moment she clawed her way into Fred's body, becoming saturated with not just humanity- but the humanity of Winifred Burkle.

I could continue on, but, in summation, I believe the continued existance of both Fred and Illyria makes them reliant on one another, and the tears were from them both.

Let's just assume that I was right, which I was: IT'S STILL NOT FRED. It's still Illyria, and no matter how she's feeling, or what she's becoming, it's not Winifred Burkle.

As for Wesley- sure, it's his ghost, spirit, call it what you will, but for us to say something constitutes a person would depend on our ability to claim the same for ourselves. Personally, I don't see myself as simply my spirit. I am my life, my recollections, my triumphs, failures, my scars, and my body. Maybe you arn't a 'whole picture' kind of person when it comes to this, but even so, anything less than the whole does not carry the identity of the whole, in my opinion, leading me to believe that Wesley "isn't all there". Also, we know how Wesley thinks, from his own S5 conversations with Illyria. She would reveal more and more of what is left of Fred becoming her (wanting to have sex with Wesley, having Fred's memories and appearance, etc. [some of which I mentioned in my above quote]), and Wesley didn't consider that enough to constitute Fred, and was offended at the allegation, so I doubt he would think of himself as Wesley Price now. READ: Wesley would argue that Wesley's not exactly Wesley.

As for the deaths being cheapened- I disagree. I think each character, Fred aside (the random variable in everything), has recieved exactly what they deserve, from a moral standpoint. Charles deserves to hate himself for all time, Wesley deserved worse I would argue, and Cordy deserves to be the being of pure bliss she was 'going' to be at the end of S3. I like Wes coming back because he's still a good man being used as an instrument of evil against Angel (so it seems), which really would make him have to fight to, once and for all, clear his name. Cordelia said she'd be watching Angel, and seems to have been working on getting into LA, in some form, which I take a breathtaking and utterly sensational keeping of her promise to fight evil, and always support and love Angel with evereything she has. But, as you said, to each their own.

 

[Superstar]

You are completely wrong. One of the best books released today by any company is IDW's Fallen Angel, and it has a great back catalogue, and amazing future ahead of it.

After I acknowledged the book you mentioned I went and looked a little deeper. Thanks for the heads up.
I really didn't think IDW had it in them. So it came over from DC because they cancelled it? I don't buy any DC so no surprise I'd never seen it.
It initially started at IDW as a 5 issue limited series. No surprise there.

I'm glad you enjoy the book, but I also see it is written by Peter David and definitely not one of my favorite writers.
On top of that it seems to have some heavy religious issues, which places another strike (or twelve) on the pass column.

But I do appreciate knowing that IDW can venture into a regular series.
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I can understand your reasoning.

Thanks.
The only IDW books I get are Angel and Star Trek OS stuff which is infrequently published.
They seem to like the newer Trek and I pass on that. What can I say, I'm finicky.
Whoo-hoo to D.C. Fontana writing Enterprise Experiment though. Always wondered what happened to that Romulan device Kirk appropriated.
In fact, I really don't buy many comics. I do like hearing what others buy as it serves as a mini-review. You never know if something will sound good.
I heard about DC's All Star line that way on another board.

IDW (Idea Design Works) seems to develop many ideas - mainly horror, they just don't seem to go anywhere beyond limited run stage.
The resume really is quite impressive for a company less than 10 years old.

Back to Angel... still not gonna happen. I don't think you are disagreeing with me on that.

 

[Exitmat]

Ummm, okay. But that doesn't mean it's Fred. Here's my S5 opinion from a thread.



Let's just assume that I was right, which I was: IT'S STILL NOT FRED. It's still Illyria, and no matter how she's feeling, or what she's becoming, it's not Winifred Burkle.

As for Wesley- sure, it's his ghost, spirit, call it what you will, but for us to say something constitutes a person would depend on our ability to claim the same for ourselves. Personally, I don't see myself as simply my spirit. I am my life, my recollections, my triumphs, failures, my scars, and my body. Maybe you arn't a 'whole picture' kind of person when it comes to this, but even so, anything less than the whole does not carry the identity of the whole, in my opinion, leading me to believe that Wesley "isn't all there". Also, we know how Wesley thinks, from his own S5 conversations with Illyria. She would reveal more and more of what is left of Fred becoming her (wanting to have sex with Wesley, having Fred's memories and appearance, etc. [some of which I mentioned in my above quote]), and Wesley didn't consider that enough to constitute Fred, and was offended at the allegation, so I doubt he would think of himself as Wesley Price now. READ: Wesley would argue that Wesley's not exactly Wesley.

As for the deaths being cheapened- I disagree. I think each character, Fred aside (the random variable in everything), has recieved exactly what they deserve, from a moral standpoint. Charles deserves to hate himself for all time, Wesley deserved worse I would argue, and Cordy deserves to be the being of pure bliss she was 'going' to be at the end of S3. I like Wes coming back because he's still a good man being used as an instrument of evil against Angel (so it seems), which really would make him have to fight to, once and for all, clear his name. Cordelia said she'd be watching Angel, and seems to have been working on getting into LA, in some form, which I take a breathtaking and utterly sensational keeping of her promise to fight evil, and always support and love Angel with evereything she has. But, as you said, to each their own.

I think you have a really great argument on the Fred/Illyiria issue, but I still don't see enough evidence to make your theory anything more than that at this point (although you have a great paper there if you ever wish to pursue it--and you should).

Also, we're going off in a little bit of a different direction. How much of Fred is in Illyria, and how much Wesley is still in Wesley, is a much bigger subject for debate (although still totally relevant).

My only point with the returns was that we're seeing those old characters coming back in walking talking ways that, with their deaths, shouldn't have been possible. When a character dies and they return in ANY form--especially for a regularly recurring role--the permanency of their death is kind of diminished. Going back and watching those moments when the characters died will just never have the same impact they used to.

In all honesty the returns don't bother me all that much because I love these characters and I think Whedon and Lynch are handling it well with how they're writing it. My biggest gripe is that they're all being brought back for one 15-issue mini-series. An ongoing series I can understand--you can do justice with those stories--but having Wesley, Fred, Gunn, and (possibly) Cordy all cheat death coming out of season 5, while also telling Angel's story AND devoting 3 issues to First Night--I just don't see how it's going to be possible to bring back all these characters as well as wrap up their stories in a satisfying way by issue #15.

Good discussion though. You bring up some good points on the subject of each character's return. It'll be interesting to see how they all play out. Until then, I'll continue to be hooked on AtF. 🙂

 

[thegifting]

I understand what you're getting at a bit better now, when you mentioned watching the show's deaths. And death episodes are always auto-faves for me, but I don't think those are taken away from on an emotional level. Like in life, we find new life for old things from birth until our last day, but just because things "heal" doesn't forget the pain of the moment. Often times, like with Wesley's situation, I think it's made more poignant because he didn't get the sweet release that, somewhere deep inside, he wanted since S3's happenings. You're smart, though. I like your posts. Keep on enjoying, because I like that others are as smart and passionate here.

 

[andrewcutter]

whow lol i going to step beck now lol.

for me i think cordy is going to come back however she wont be around long than an issue or two
personally i rather he just stay dead.

as for angel comice series..... i know after the fall will end and i am not getting my hopes up, however i can see another comic company pick angel up some time.

as for the illyria fred thing, i mentioned in my video review that in the beginning of the comic series ot was portrayed as fred coming back some how and part of her was sharing a body with illyria, it was even stated by joss that if he was allowed to do a tv season 6 that he would do something like that, however in comic nine the way illyria describes whats happening to her it seems that fred long gone and only pieces of her remain.

I think its best for us to just wait until the next issue.