Angel: Redemption, Destiny, Disallusionment, and the Powers that Be

[ToShanshuInLA]

I was rooting for an alternate reality Angel but I re-read an interview posted somewhere here where I think it was said that it's the normal reality Angel. So if that's true, I'm going to subscribe to the theory where he's doing this all for/under orders of The PTB, just because of that arc in "Aftermath" with the potentates. I could be reaching even then. haha.

I'm just hoping for some way I can still like Angel, or at least still like his story after this. 🙁

 

[citiegal17]

Another thing I have been noticed dicussed on forums are Angel vs Spike and which one is the better one. Well I don't think the time that they both have had their souls that matter the most, but the way they act when they don't have souls. Spike started out evil however, he has proven even if without a soul he is capable of good, even if it is for selfish reasons, such as his obession with Buffy in season 5. However, Angel without a soul is pure evil. I'm not a Spuffy fan either but the comparison shows how just having a soul it is not necessarily an indication of good, which is true for such characters such as Warren.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

Another thing I have been noticed dicussed on forums are Angel vs Spike and which one is the better one. Well I don't think the time that they both have had their souls that matter the most, but the way they act when they don't have souls. Spike started out evil however, he has proven even if without a soul he is capable of good, even if it is for selfish reasons, such as his obession with Buffy in season 5. However, Angel without a soul is pure evil. I'm not a Spuffy fan either but the comparison shows how just having a soul it is not necessarily an indication of good, which is true for such characters such as Warren.

Spike didn't do good things just because of his crush on Buffy. He had a chip. He was only able to inflict violence on demons and the like. There was a point where he did want to impress her, yes, but he still had the bloodlust.

Your post makes me wonder what Angelus would be like without a chip. He'd probably stake himself.

 

[white avenger]

Okay, once we get past all of the whoop and holler about Angel being back, just what can we really, logically, expect to happen? Angel has his own series with another publisher, so nothing permanent is going to happen (unless the speculation that Connor might wind up with a baby brother or sister in Season 9 becomes reality). Buffy and Angel CAN NOT be together permanently. By the same token, Buffy CAN NOT repeat her actions at the end of Season 2 and send Angel back to hell. And, what can be said for Angel almost certainly applies just as much to Spike, assuming that he ever does show up in Season 8, unless there is some sort of agreement between Dark Horse and IDW to have him leave Angel and return to Buffy's series, which I highly doubt.

So, basically, what we're going to be left with at the end of Season 8 is a status that remains stubbornly quo. We may possibly see an end of the Slayer army, with only Buffy (and hopefully Faith) retaining the powers and title of Chosen One, and the Xander/Dawn romance might survive. Beyond that, don't get your hopes up too high.

 

[citiegal17]

Spike didn't do good things just because of his crush on Buffy. He had a chip. He was only able to inflict violence on demons and the like. There was a point where he did want to impress her, yes, but he still had the bloodlust.

Your post makes me wonder what Angelus would be like without a chip. He'd probably stake himself.

I wasn't overlooking the chip part I just didn't mention it, but that is still a good example, and the bloodlust was also a factor. However, if you are looking at this as a simply, Black vs Gray, Angel(Black) vs Spike(Gray). I am not also saying Spike was even good to begin with, he wasn't but he changed, even if it was forced or caused by outside influence.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

I'm tellin' ya, Joss is NOT going to be bound by someone else's canon. I guarantee he'll do with Angel exactly as he pleases.

IDW is a licensee. Nothing more. Nobody's telling them they can't tell whatever stories they want... in fact, since they don't have the rights to use the Joss/Dark Horse canon, they don't even have the ability (much less the responsibility) to let it affect their books.

Fox might have a problem with Joss actually killing Angel off for good, since he's the title character of an active franchise they own, but other than that... anything goes.

 

[citiegal17]

Okay, once we get past all of the whoop and holler about Angel being back, just what can we really, logically, expect to happen? Angel has his own series with another publisher, so nothing permanent is going to happen (unless the speculation that Connor might wind up with a baby brother or sister in Season 9 becomes reality). Buffy and Angel CAN NOT be together permanently. By the same token, Buffy CAN NOT repeat her actions at the end of Season 2 and send Angel back to hell. And, what can be said for Angel almost certainly applies just as much to Spike, assuming that he ever does show up in Season 8, unless there is some sort of agreement between Dark Horse and IDW to have him leave Angel and return to Buffy's series, which I highly doubt.

So, basically, what we're going to be left with at the end of Season 8 is a status that remains stubbornly quo. We may possibly see an end of the Slayer army, with only Buffy (and hopefully Faith) retaining the powers and title of Chosen One, and the Xander/Dawn romance might survive. Beyond that, don't get your hopes up too high.

One of the reasons I didn't want to use that as a means of comparisonsion is simply is the fact that Spike hasn't had his soul as long as Angel, which would make it simply a "what if" comparsion rather than what is. It matters I agree, and I am I am sounding contradicting but all that would lead to is a bunch of what ifs, and thats just wouldn't get anywhere.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

I'm tellin' ya, Joss is NOT going to be bound by someone else's canon. I guarantee he'll do with Angel exactly as he pleases.

IDW is a licensee. Nothing more. Nobody's telling them they can't tell whatever stories they want... in fact, since they don't have the rights to use the Joss/Dark Horse canon, they don't even have the ability (much less the responsibility) to let it affect their books.

Fox might have a problem with Joss actually killing Angel off for good, since he's the title character of an active franchise they own, but other than that... anything goes.

You're correct in what you say but...

If this is the way they do go with it, then I'd say disrespect of the fans/readers goes pretty far. It'd end up confusing people. Or maybe I'm overreacting.

I mean, even in the live-action series they kept things reasonably aligned, even after they switched networks. Not everything crossed over, but things weren't completely screwed with.

Wait 'n see, ToShanshuInLA...Wait 'n see... 🙁

 

[AndrewCrossett]

I mean, even in the live-action series they kept things reasonably aligned, even after they switched networks. Not everything crossed over, but things weren't completely screwed with.

Joss was executive-producing both of the TV shows, even on the different networks. But he has nothing to do with the Angel comics anymore.

Dark Horse put out a ton of Buffy comics before Season 8. They were all officially licensed from Fox but Joss had nothing to do with them, and they often directly contradict the canon story. The current Angel series is the same way. Joss shouldn't worry about what's going on in it, and IDW shouldn't worry about what's going on in season 8. The two series just don't count from each other's perspective. They're separate properties licensed to separate companies.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Joss was executive-producing both of the TV shows, even on the different networks. But he has nothing to do with the Angel comics anymore.

Dark Horse put out a ton of Buffy comics before Season 8. They were all officially licensed from Fox but Joss had nothing to do with them, and they often directly contradict the canon story. The current Angel series is the same way. Joss shouldn't worry about what's going on in it, and IDW shouldn't worry about what's going on in season 8. The two series just don't count from each other's perspective. They're separate properties licensed to separate companies.

You're right, but Joss, Willingham, and Chris Ryall have all handled this poorly. I don't blame Allie as he really has nothing to do with IDW.

Joss should have either continued mapping out the arcs with Brian Lynch, so that they'd build up to BS8--or at the very least made them stop using his AtF title's numbering to end the ambiguity of canonization. Keep in mind that to this day, Ryall maintains that Armstrong & Willingham's arcs are Buffyverse canon.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

You're right, but Joss, Willingham, and Chris Ryall have all handled this poorly. I don't blame Allie as he really has nothing to do with IDW.

Joss should have either continued mapping out the arcs with Brian Lynch, so that they'd build up to BS8--or at the very least made them stop using his AtF title's numbering to end the ambiguity of canonization. Keep in mind that to this day, Ryall maintains that Armstrong & Willingham's arcs are Buffyverse canon.

What he said ^, especially the part in bold.

I still don't understand how two separate canons for one character makes sense, different companies or no, though.


(Your signature amuses me.)

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Keep in mind that to this day, Ryall maintains that Armstrong & Willingham's arcs are Buffyverse canon.

It's very much in his interest to do so, since anything perceived as being canon sells 2-3 times better than non-canon. And since the definition of "canon" is fuzzy to most people, he can use the most liberal definition (i.e., licensed by Fox and signed off by Joss's office... which also includes every single comic or book ever published under the Buffy or Angel title.)

It's also in Fox's interest for the Angel comics to sell as well as possible, which is why they (and Joss) don't make any statements about canonicity or object to the continued numbering system.

 

[white avenger]

I still don't understand how two separate canons for one character makes sense, different companies or no, though.

You're right, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but it could be like the "Other Earth" concept from DC Comics a few years ago. We could have, in effect, the "Buffyverse" at Dark Horse, and the "Angelverse" at IDW, a reality that split off from the Buffyverse directly after the battle in "Not Fade Away." Not the greatest solution, but really no worse than evil Angelus and champion Angel both inhabiting the same body.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

it could be like the "Other Earth" concept from DC Comics a few years ago. We could have, in effect, the "Buffyverse" at Dark Horse, and the "Angelverse" at IDW, a reality that split off from the Buffyverse directly after the battle in "Not Fade Away." Not the greatest solution, but really no worse than evil Angelus and champion Angel both inhabiting the same body.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even in DC isn't their only one real universe? Isn't Earth-One the world that the comics primarily follow, with all of the others being alt!universes?

Also, After the Fall is indisputably canon, so "Not Fade Away" being the breaking point wouldn't make a ton of sense.

Additionally, it would be far worse than Angelus inhabiting Angel's body as Angel and the world as a whole remembers everything Angelus has done. In your scenario, Buffy, alt!Spike & alt!Angel would be clueless about years of Angel & Spike's lives.

---------- Post added at 12:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 PM ----------

It's very much in his interest to do so, since anything perceived as being canon sells 2-3 times better than non-canon. And since the definition of "canon" is fuzzy to most people, he can use the most liberal definition (i.e., licensed by Fox and signed off by Joss's office... which also includes every single comic or book ever published under the Buffy or Angel title.)

It's also in Fox's interest for the Angel comics to sell as well as possible, which is why they (and Joss) don't make any statements about canonicity or object to the continued numbering system.

While you're right, by that definition, Ryall & Allie should have claimed all of those other comics were canon too years ago.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

While you're right, by that definition, Ryall & Allie should have claimed all of those other comics were canon too years ago.

Dunno about Ryall, but Allie doesn't roll that way. I asked him about it once, and he readily admitted that the earlier Dark Horse comics weren't canon. Even the ones written by the TV series writers like Espenson.

I think Ryall is just a little bit more of a salesman than Allie is.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Angel doesn't like being a vampire. He doesn't like being unhappy (which is kind of a requirement). He doesn't like being disallowed to have sex with a woman he's in love with. He doesn't like the idea of his friends, lovers, and son eventually lapping him in age.

He should have thought of that before allowing TPTB to remove Buffy's memories of that one day when he was human in "I Will Remember You".

One of the reasons I didn't want to use that as a means of comparisonsion is simply is the fact that Spike hasn't had his soul as long as Angel, which would make it simply a "what if" comparsion rather than what is.

Here is another difference. Spike had "earned" his soul the hard way. He didn't have it inflicted upon him, against his will. The day when Angelus learns to choose to have a soul (or really choose a certain path) is the day I will be impressed by him.

This whole Twilight thing strikes me as another example of Angel trying to inflict his will upon others, whether he thinks he is doing it for "the greater good" or not.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

This question sort of relates to Angel's journey in general

The fact that Angel pretty much hates prophecies & destiny makes #34 even a harder pill to swallow. I understand that #35 will go deeper into the philosophical implications of the prophecy, but how about the fact that Angel's believing this ominous prophecy.

What happened to this Angel?!?

Lindsey: "Yeah. I had a crisis - and I want to thank you for your help with that - but I see things more clearly now."

Angel: "You don't see anything. You don't know what faith is."

Lindsey holds up the scroll: "I see that what happened here tonight was foretold - that doesn't bode well for you. - I see that you are either the one with the power - or you're powerless."

Angel: "Uh-huh. You see what I'm gonna do to you if you don't give me that scroll?"

Lindsey: "You need the words of Anatole to cure your friend. She's your connection to the Powers That Be. And since it is foretold that we sever all your connections (holds the scroll into the flames burning in the urn beside him) well..."
Angel throws the scythe, cutting off Lindsey's hand at the wrist. Lindsey drops the cross and screams as he drops to the ground. He is cradling his bleeding stump against his chest, as Angel goes to retrieve the scroll from the floor beside him.

Angel: "Don't believe everything you're foretold."

I wouldn't call myself a Cangel, but boy does Angel need Cordy to remind him about just what kind of Champion Doyle died to protect.

 

[citiegal17]

The fact that Angel pretty much hates prophecies & destiny makes #34 even a harder pill to swallow. I understand that #35 will go deeper into the philosophical implications of the prophecy, but how about the fact that Angel's believing this ominous prophecy.

What happened to this Angel?!?

I wouldn't call myself a Cangel, but boy does Angel need Cordy to remind him about just what kind of Champion Doyle died to protect.

Agreed, Angel seems to think just because he has a soul, that it makes it more important than he is. I think Doyle's sacrifice was what a real hero is, and Angel is everything a hero is not.