Angel The Alpha Male Yes Or No

white avenger

white avenger
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I mentioned this in another thread, and it got some discussion, so I thought that it might be an interesting topic to pursue in more depth (actually, a friend suggested it, but I still think that it could be interesting) so...

For the sake of this argument: Angel is the alpha male of the Buffyverse. He's the man who ultimately trusts his own judgement over that of others. He makes major decisions affecting others without consulting them. He works WITH others, but rarely, if ever, works FOR them. And so on...

Yes, no, or just maybe sometimes, but not always?
 
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I wouldn't necessarily say that he's THE alpha male of the Buffyverse, but he certainly is AN alpha male particularly when he is Angelus. It seems it's a vampire trait. Spike killed the annoying one and took over but when he got injured and Angel lost his soul, Angelus then came swaggering in and displacing Spike as alpha male with Spike being unable to stop it due to his injuries. Angelus' big mistake was making moves on Drusilla in order to further assert his dominance over Spike. Spike then got revenge by siding with Buffy who banished Angelus/Angel.
 
No.

Simply because Angel had no problem working for Buffy, and no problem working for Wesley. He doesn't have a burning need to be in charge. Does he have charisma, world experience, and drive? Yes, and those things lend themselves to him being a leader of others.

Clearly we have different interpretations of Alpha males, because from your criteria Buffy is more of an Alpha male- she has to be in charge and resents taking orders (ones she wasn't gonna do anyway) and has acting in such a way on a few occasions.


If Angel trusted his own judgement above all others then he'd never listen to anyone, EVER, which is clearly not true. He listens to Buffy, Cordelia, Doyle, Wesley, Faith and on and on.
 
In your definition of the term? No.

Like @thetopher said, Angel is capable of working for people as much as he's capable of working with people and have people work for him. He listens to other people, he trusts their judgment he takes their opinions into account. He might be rash and headstrong and he does the wrong things sometimes, but that doesn't mean that his actions are always wrong and he deserves to be labeled as something he's not. Everyone does that, we're not here arguing if Wesley or Xander is an alpha male.
 
Angelus: Yes, without a doubt - he has to be top of the pecking order
Angel: No. As others have already said. He is happy to work alongside others, or for others. Yeah sure, there's a period where he's the 'boss', but that doesn't make him an alpha male.
 
from your criteria Buffy is more of an Alpha male

Actually, Buffy would be an alpha female. There is such a thing, and it isn't the same as an alpha male. Alpha females tend to be something like the senior lioness in a pride, or an emperor's warlord. The strongest fighter, and the natural leader, but not necessarily the one in ultimate control. Chauvinistic, I know, but that's the difference. What can you expect when the people naming the traits were all men?
 
Actually, Buffy would be an alpha female. There is such a thing, and it isn't the same as an alpha male. Alpha females tend to be something like the senior lioness in a pride, or an emperor's warlord. The strongest fighter, and the natural leader, but not necessarily the one in ultimate control.

Sounds like a double-standard to me. Buffy is just 'naturally in control' but Angel 'HAS' to be in control- according to you.

Whereas I cannot recall a time where Buffy happily took orders or relinquished command. What did Faith say to her in S7 'The question isn't 'Can I lead?' it's 'can you follow?' and the answer was a resounding NO. Buffy couldn't shallow her pride and follow, she walked off.

Even in S8 Buffy decides everything, in command of hundreds of slayers, and makes rash decisions by herself that affect everyone- robbing banks (secretly), tactical decisions, sleeping with Twilight, breaking the seed.
Did Buffy consult anyone before doing this? Nope, she just took it upon herself to do what she thought she had to.

...But even then I see plenty of evidence that Buffy isn't an alpha either- at least on the show- since she listens to plenty of advice from Xander, Willow, Giles etc. But she does seem to be- from your definitions- an alpha-type personality (gender non-specific. 😉)
 
I think Buffy and Angel are both maneuvered into Alpha territory by their destiny. They're both told that they're unique and have a vital role to play. With this and they're natural gifts I don't see how they can be anything else. It's reinforced throughout both shows. You'd lose count of how many times Buffy is told she's the chosen one and it's up to her. Angel is told he's a major player in the apocalypse. Then the pair of them get jerked around into creating a universe together. If you're that important you're going to see yourself as the leader.
 
I think he is an alpha male in the sense that he is (or can be) a great leader of his team. He definitely takes on the responsibility of leading, and he succeeds at it.

But like others have said, he's not alpha in the sense that he won't listen to others, or is not willing to work alongside others. I do think Angel has some reluctance in trusting people and working as a team, but it has more to do with him being a vampire than it does with him not wanting to listen to others.

And this whole alpha male vs alpha female definition, sounds like misogynistic propaganda (not aimed at you WA, I know you didn't come up with the terms, but those who did clearly had an inflated "alpha" male ego).
 
he's not alpha in the sense that he won't listen to others, or is not willing to work alongside others.

Being the one in charge, the one who always has the final say, doesn't mean the Angel doesn't listen to the advice others, it just means that he doesn't feel required to take it, and won't, if he disagrees.

And, once more, I say, being that self assured isn't necessarily a character flaw, it just means
that the alpha male is confident that he is the the one most qualified to make any final decision.
 
I think Buffy and Angel are both maneuvered into Alpha territory by their destiny. They're both told that they're unique and have a vital role to play. With this and they're natural gifts I don't see how they can be anything else. It's reinforced throughout both shows. You'd lose count of how many times Buffy is told she's the chosen one and it's up to her. Angel is told he's a major player in the apocalypse. Then the pair of them get jerked around into creating a universe together. If you're that important you're going to see yourself as the leader.

That's a good point - Buffy and Angel are both constantly thrust into situations where they must be alphas. But I think that there IS a difference between them - Angel wants that role, whereas Buffy tries to run from it.

Buffy constantly wishes she was normal, "just a girl", a child. Her costume in halloween (which represents what she WANTS to be) in season 4 is red riding hood - the innocent child, as opposed to Xander's authority figure (James Bond) and Willow's badass righteous rebel (Joan of Arc). When Buffy learns that she's gonna die in 1x12, she asks her mom to run away from town with her. When her boyfriend turns evil in season 2, Buffy doesn't have it in her do her slayer duty and kill him, and has to spend a lot of time (from episode 14 to 22) building her will to do it. When Faith comes to town in season 3, Buffy sees her as both a threat to her normal teen life (eating her chips, stealing her boyfriends, etc) AND as a possible replacement that will allow Buffy to leave slaying behind her. In season 5, when she finds that she has natural slayer instincts, she's scared and wants to learn to control them. And in 5x22, Buffy sacrifices her own life so she could save Dawn - who represents Buffy's childhood, her innocence, and NOT her dutiful slayer life. Season 6, of course, is all about Buffy trying to avoid her responsibilities and using slaying as nothing but an excuse to not do anything. She fight vampires because it's easy and distracting, but she doesn't really try to go after the trio. And in season 7, she finally accepts her role, but very reluctantly, and it makes her miserable - she says "I am the law", but she says it in sadness and desperation. She hates it and resents it, but she can't escape it. She spends 7 years trying to run away from her role as the slayer, and she ends the series by empowering EVERYONE, which gives her (and everyone else) the choice of whether to be a slayer or not.

Angel, on the other hand, sees his role as an OPPORTUNITY, not a burden. For him, being a "champion" is an opportunity to redeem his past sins, so he pursues it willingly - he smashes the gem of Amara, which provided him something of an escape into humanity, because his duty is more important to him. He gave up his humanity in 'I wil Remember You', because his duty is more important. He allowed Faith to pummel him in her anger, because his own happiness isn't important, but the opportunity to be Faith's champion IS. In 'To Shanshu in L.A", Angel doesn't even care about his own prophecised death. He only cares about the lives of his friends. The Shanshu prophecy gives Angel the opportunity to see his redemption as something tangible and near, and that makes him abandon his friends and his humanity in season 2. He does so in service of his mission of redemption, symbolized by his war to defeat Wolfram & Hart. When he realizes that he can't defeat them in 2x15, he loses hope in sleeps with Darla, but when that doesn't change anything either, he realizes that he must go back to the day-to-day redemption of fighting the good fight. He rejoins his team. He allows them to punish him for his bad behaviour and allows Wesley to be leader, because Angel's own happines isn't important to him - only the mission is important. This continues throughout the series, with Angel getting closer and closer to his own humanity (getting a son, entering into relationships, building a family of friends around him), but he always chooses the mission over his own happiness. In the final episode, Angel literally signs his own happy ending away, because redemption is more important.

So, Buffy is very reluctant to fulfill her duty as the slayer, whereas Angel is completely devoted it. What does this have to do with alpha-ness? Everything. Because their duties (The Slayer and the "champion". Also, for the record - I really hate the word champion) are the duties of alphas - to be the adult, to be the leader, to decide what's right, to choose, to act. Buffy's reluctance to fulfill her duty makes her NOT an alpha, IMO, whereas Angel's eagerness to fulfill his duty makes him a very alpha-ish character. That's just who they are.

Also - this is probably just me, but... David Boreanaz naturally exudes a certain alpha-ness, don't you think? I mean, the guy is, like, THE men's man of men. Just look at him:

tumblr_m4k35rXLYv1rwxnkro1_500.gif


Oops, wrong gif, my bad. This is what I'm talking about:

angel-2013-david-boreanaz-dvdbash23.jpg

tumblr_mzjnph6Ozl1spv74ho1_500.gif

d2e8afdab6d02006331f0c78901d4bf4.jpg


The guy looks like a freakin' greek statue. I mean, yes, okay, EVERYONE on these shows is ridiculously beautiful, but I don't think there's another person who's so classically masculine on either show.

Which, you know, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But it does kinda make me want to see him fall on his face sometimes, just to remind him that he's human.

770412fred2.gif
 
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The Bronze
The Bronze
Very interesting. I'll have to give this some thought. I think they both might a have a bit of Stockholm Syndrome with regards to their powers and destiny though.
I think vampires are pack animals with a hierarchy much like lions, wolves and Gorillas. There has to be an alpha. In season 2, it was Spike for the majority, but when he got injured, Angelus strolled in and usurped him, putting Spike lower down the pecking order.
 
We see an extreme of vampire hierarchy when the female vampire comes into the school, calls Buffy out then combusts and dies. Without a hierarchy, this could not happen, nor would the Master have anyone serving him. I think Joss is trying to make the point that hierarchies are throwbacks to a pack animal phase of human development with all the corresponding sacrifices of underlings. Angel could not be an alpha - he was too consumed by the concept of redemption. Angelus is another story - he tended to dominate whatever group he was in.
 
I have always seen Angel as more of a reluctant leader. He does well working with others, but I wouldn't say he's an alpha male. Even as Angelus, he didn't mind working with others to carry out whatever agenda he had.
 
The description I ran into has these traits, and I think they suit Angel well. He is willing to do what others need him to do, but he won't do something that he doesn't think will work. He does make decisions for people - even if he makes the right decisions, he most often makes them on his own. As Spike said on the sub - Uh, yeah, probably should warn you. He likes to pretend he's the boss.

Angelus is more dominant because he really doesn't care about anyone but himself - and souled Angel cared about what he had done but he really didn't care about anyone either. Buffy opened that door for him, and while he was willing to do what was needed to help her, I don't recall him ever actually being subservient. It's just not in him.
  • Loyalty. There isn't much alpha males values over loyalty — they are pack leaders and expect those they lead to commit and stay loyal to them. ...
  • Intellect. Alpha males aren't brutes. ...
  • Passion. ...
  • Vision. ...
  • Control. ...
  • Unpredictability. ...
  • Patience. ...
  • Assertiveness.
 
white avenger
white avenger
You left out charisma
and souled Angel cared about what he had done but he really didn't care about anyone either.
What? Angel never cared about anyone? Can you give me your alternate versions of BtVS and AtS then please? So I can judge the Angel in your versions.

Buffy opened that door for him, and while he was willing to do what was needed to help her, I don't recall him ever actually being subservient. It's just not in him.
When is the last time you watched the early Seasons of BtVS? Angel usually followed Buffy's plan. The only time Angel really went his own way was in the wake of Alan Finch's death when he did his own investigation to piece together what happened. And it usually was Buffy/Giles' plan that was in place (or the whole Scoobie Gang's) and which he followed. Whether that's during Zeppo, Enemies or Graduation Day. Or all the other times where he carried out or helped with the plan the others came up with.
 
The description I ran into has these traits, and I think they suit Angel well. He is willing to do what others need him to do, but he won't do something that he doesn't think will work. He does make decisions for people - even if he makes the right decisions, he most often makes them on his own. As Spike said on the sub - Uh, yeah, probably should warn you. He likes to pretend he's the boss.

Angelus is more dominant because he really doesn't care about anyone but himself - and souled Angel cared about what he had done but he really didn't care about anyone either. Buffy opened that door for him, and while he was willing to do what was needed to help her, I don't recall him ever actually being subservient. It's just not in him.
  • Loyalty. There isn't much alpha males values over loyalty — they are pack leaders and expect those they lead to commit and stay loyal to them. ...
  • Intellect. Alpha males aren't brutes. ...
  • Passion. ...
  • Vision. ...
  • Control. ...
  • Unpredictability. ...
  • Patience. ...
  • Assertiveness.

Also:

Confidant
Mentally Tough
Competitive
Takes Chances
Calm under Pressure
Isn't Afraid To Get Physical
Physically Impressive
and more

Character traits, not necessarily faults.
 
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