Angel - the demon and the soul

[ILLYRIAN]

So maybe it wasn't Angel that 'bigged himself' maybe it was Angelus out for a looksee and to have some fun.
Like he did, in LA get Angel's crew to think all is well then fires them. Angelus goes back under the covers and lets Angel cop the flack. So he takes them back then Angelus gets them to kill people and puts them in the alley, then goes to for a p and drops Angel right in it.

 

[thetopher]

That is EXACTLY the kind of thing that Angel would say to impress Buffy. "Look how bad I was back then, all the evil things that I did, the nuns that I killed. Look at me now, how brave, noble, stalwart, and tall I am. Look at all the changes I've made, just for you. Do you love me now?" Pure Harlequin in the highest order.

Angel knows very well that Buffy loves him, and loves him with all of the blind devotion that only a teen aged girl can feel for her first love. And, less we forget, this is the girl who was the first one to come up with the concept that Angelus was a totally different person than Angel, so anything that Angelus had done in no way applied to Angel, the man with the tortured soul, who she loved.

And you're right, that is a "Spike" thing to do, but certainly not a "William" thing to do. Almost certainly, something that he learned from his "Yoda."

BUFFY
I'm talking about the people I trust.
Who's Drusilla?

Angel's face falls.

BUFFY
And don't lie to me. I'm tired of it.

ANGEL
Some lies are necessary.

BUFFY
For what?

ANGEL
Sometimes the truth is worse. You live
long enough, you find that out.

BUFFY
I can take it. I can take the truth.

ANGEL
Do you love me?

BUFFY
What?

ANGEL
Do you?

BUFFY
I love you. I don't know if I trust you.

ANGEL
Maybe you shouldn't do either.

BUFFY
Maybe I'm the one should decide.

He waits a beat. Then:

ANGEL
I did a lot of unconscionable things when
I became a Vampire. Drusilla was the
worst. She was"¦ an obsession of mine.
She was pure, and sweet and chaste.

BUFFY
You made her a vampire.

ANGEL
First I made her insane. Killed everyone
she loved, visited every mental torture
on her I could devise. She eventually
fled to a convent and the day she took
her holy orders I turned her into a demon.

For a moment Buffy can't say a thing. Can't even look at him.

BUFFY
Well, I asked for the truth"¦

Yeah, she's enraptured with Angel all right, you really get their relationship...

I won't even bother to quote 'Amends' for you, where Angel tries to kill himself from all the guilt he's feeling while Buffy tearfully tries to stop him.

I'll just let this speak for itself. 😉

 

[thetopher]

So maybe it wasn't Angel that 'bigged himself' maybe it was Angelus out for a looksee and to have some fun.
Like he did, in LA get Angel's crew to think all is well then fires them. Angelus goes back under the covers and lets Angel cop the flack. So he takes them back then Angelus gets them to kill people and puts them in the alley, then goes to for a p and drops Angel right in it.

What, like Dr. Jekyll and Mr Hyde?
A split-personality?
Angel blacks out and Angelus does something bad so then Angel gets the blame?

I'm not sure that's how his curse works at all, Angel is fully in control of his actions when he fires his friends, or when he tries to kill Wes, or when he infiltrates the Cicle of the Black Thorn.

I'm a big fan of Angel, but that seems like some kind of white-wash towards his character to me. As if Angel has never done anything wrong, its was all Angelus. 😕

 

[white avenger]

BUFFY
I'm talking about the people I trust.
Who's Drusilla?

Angel's face falls.

BUFFY
And don't lie to me. I'm tired of it.

ANGEL
Some lies are necessary.

BUFFY
For what?

ANGEL
Sometimes the truth is worse. You live
long enough, you find that out.

BUFFY
I can take it. I can take the truth.

ANGEL
Do you love me?

BUFFY
What?

ANGEL
Do you?

BUFFY
I love you. I don't know if I trust you.

ANGEL
Maybe you shouldn't do either.

BUFFY
Maybe I'm the one should decide.

He waits a beat. Then:

ANGEL
I did a lot of unconscionable things when
I became a Vampire. Drusilla was the
worst. She was"¦ an obsession of mine.
She was pure, and sweet and chaste.

BUFFY
You made her a vampire.

ANGEL
First I made her insane. Killed everyone
she loved, visited every mental torture
on her I could devise. She eventually
fled to a convent and the day she took
her holy orders I turned her into a demon.

For a moment Buffy can't say a thing. Can't even look at him.

BUFFY
Well, I asked for the truth"¦


Yeah, she's enraptured with Angel all right, you really get their relationship...

I won't even bother to quote 'Amends' for you, where Angel tries to kill himself from all the guilt he's feeling while Buffy tearfully tries to stop him.

I'll just let this speak for itself. 😉

And it speaks of pure teenage vampire romance novels. In his effort to break one genre, the helpless blonde victim, Joss fell into another cliched genre, where dark, mysterious heroes with tragic pasts meet and fall helplessly in love with innocent young girls and bravely try, for the girl own sake, to send her away by regaling her with horrific stories of his evil past. Even though our hero knows that nothing that he might say or do will send little Blondie away, even for his own good, still, he has to try, all the time knowing that it is this tragic past that draws her to him like the proverbial moth to the irresistible flame.

Hey, I love the story as much as anybody, but it's pure cliche, and if Angel doesn't know that all of that dark evil confession of his terrible past is just going to make Buffy love him more, is going to show her just how much better a man he is now, when she just KNOWS it's her love for him, and his for her, that has made her what he is now, then he is a fool, albeit a noble one.

Harlequin and other publishers like them have been making millions by rerunning that exact same plot, with only minor changes, for decades.

 

[thetopher]

And it speaks of pure teenage vampire romance novels. In his effort to break one genre, the helpless blonde victim, Joss fell into another cliched genre, where dark, mysterious heroes with tragic pasts meet and fall helplessly in love with innocent young girls and bravely try, for the girl own sake, to send her away by regaling her with horrific stories of his evil past. Even though our hero knows that nothing that he might say or do will send little Blondie away, even for his own good, still, he has to try, all the time knowing that it is this tragic past that draws her to him like the proverbial moth to the irresistible flame.

Hey, I love the story as much as anybody, but it's pure cliche, and if Angel doesn't know that all of that dark evil confession of his terrible past is just going to make Buffy love him more, is going to show her just how much better a man he is now, when she just KNOWS it's her love for him, and his for her, that has made her what he is now, then he is a fool, albeit a noble one.

Harlequin and other publishers like them have been making millions by rerunning that exact same plot, with only minor changes, for decades.

I may indeed be a cliche', (everything is pretty much a cliche- there are only so many plots in fiction after all- the skill lies in the execution) but your mistake is confusing your 'awareness' of the cliche with the characters awareness.

Your assuming that Angel knows all that you proclaim to be 'true', knows that he's in a Harlequin romance and that Buffy will be drawn to his dark, horrible past and his struggle to atone.
This is dispite all the evidence to the contrary not only in the dialogue (where Angel is wary of revealing his horrific past and Buffy is shocked by it), and the reactions of the characters themselves.
Angel isn't proud of the actions/horrors he inflicted as Angelus, so why would even conceive that Buffy would be drawn to him because of them?

Also, I bring up Amends, where Angel, ashamed of all the evils he has committed, tries to end his life, even as Buffy tries to stop him. But maybe that was all a huge bluff and it was just a way for Mr. Broody-pants to get noticed, huh? 🙄

I honestly don't recognise the character your attempting to describe- it paints Angel as deeply manipulative, much moreso than Angelus.
Also as cavalier and not truly caring about the things he's done, since he's using them as a seduction tool.

Again, those are Spike hallmarks, not Angel ones. 🙂

 

[SiegePerilous02]

And it speaks of pure teenage vampire romance novels. In his effort to break one genre, the helpless blonde victim, Joss fell into another cliched genre, where dark, mysterious heroes with tragic pasts meet and fall helplessly in love with innocent young girls and bravely try, for the girl own sake, to send her away by regaling her with horrific stories of his evil past. Even though our hero knows that nothing that he might say or do will send little Blondie away, even for his own good, still, he has to try, all the time knowing that it is this tragic past that draws her to him like the proverbial moth to the irresistible flame.

Hey, I love the story as much as anybody, but it's pure cliche, and if Angel doesn't know that all of that dark evil confession of his terrible past is just going to make Buffy love him more, is going to show her just how much better a man he is now, when she just KNOWS it's her love for him, and his for her, that has made her what he is now, then he is a fool, albeit a noble one.

Harlequin and other publishers like them have been making millions by rerunning that exact same plot, with only minor changes, for decades.

Spuffy reads much like a Harlequin romance novel as well. Spike is a walking bad boy cliche that makes some types of women weak in the knees: cockney accent, leather coat, chain smoker, bleached hair. We hit critical mass as soon as he got a motorcycle. But under that tough exterior lies the heart of a poet, who devotes his entire existence to the object of his "love," and has no purpose beyond that. How many times have we seen the "good girl redeems bad boy through her virtuous purity" cliche done in fiction, both before and after BtVS? To say nothing of that really stupid stretch where he was tortured by the First/Ubervamp (by drowning, WTF) and kept whispering "she will come for me" over and over again like some maiden in need of rescuing from a band of pirates.

And I agree with thetopher. Buffy doesn't seem all that enthralled upon learning about Drusilla. It freaks her right the hell out, like a normal person. And seeing Angel as a suicidal mess, getting an uncensored look into his memories as Angelus in her dreams in "Amends," and seeing him act like a petty asshole towards Riley definitely doesn't lead to her thinking "oh, how I love my perfect man who never ever does anything wrong." She knows he can be a jackass and a coward in his lowest moments. She still loves him anyway, just as he still loves her when she acts like a selfish, judgmental brat on occasion. Not exactly the material romance novels are made of. 50 Shades of Gray and Twilight don't really have relationships that nuanced.

 

[thetopher]

Spuffy reads much like a Harlequin romance novel as well. Spike is a walking bad boy cliche that makes some types of women weak in the knees: cockney accent, leather coat, chain smoker, bleached hair. We hit critical mass as soon as he got a motorcycle. But under that tough exterior lies the heart of a poet, who devotes his entire existence to the object of his "love," and has no purpose beyond that. How many times have we seen the "good girl redeems bad boy through her virtuous purity" cliche done in fiction, both before and after BtVS? To say nothing of that really stupid stretch where he was tortured by the First/Ubervamp (by drowning, WTF) and kept whispering "she will come for me" over and over again like some maiden in need of rescuing from a band of pirates.

And I agree with thetopher. Buffy doesn't seem all that enthralled upon learning about Drusilla. It freaks her right the hell out, like a normal person. And seeing Angel as a suicidal mess, getting an uncensored look into his memories as Angelus in her dreams in "Amends," and seeing him act like a petty asshole towards Riley definitely doesn't lead to her thinking "oh, how I love my perfect man who never ever does anything wrong." She knows he can be a jackass and a coward in his lowest moments. She still loves him anyway, just as he still loves her when she acts like a selfish, judgmental brat on occasion. Not exactly the material romance novels are made of. 50 Shades of Gray and Twilight don't really have relationships that nuanced.

Absolutely agree! 🙂

I don't really want to get into Spuffy bashing but if we're taliking romantic cliche' then the 'bad guy who's a big romanctic underneath if only he could find the right woman to reform him' is a trope that has been done to death, and Spuffy is the epitome of it.

Spike has the same appeal as Lucius Malfoy, or Loki- he's a baddie who just needs the love of a good woman to break through that hard surface, and then he'll be loyal and love you forever and ever. 😉

Buffy (and Faith incidentally) see Angel at his absolute worst, they have seen the demon that wears his face, they've seen him stumble and fall and be a suicidal/selfish/petty/jealous jackass. Let they still love him (in different ways to be sure) 🙂

Also agree that Angel has seen Buffy at her most brattish by the way...

Just look at the Buffy/Angel conversation in S7, compare it with Buffy's conversations with Spike- which seems like two adults having a conversation, two people with faults who know each other and yet still love each other, and which is pure Harlequin fluff?

 

[Kana]

I think my thoughts on this subject are well documented. As far as I'm concerned, the method of answering the question of Angel's identity, is starting with attempting to define what the soul is.

As I've said many times before, I believe in a dualist slant on the 'Verse. That is to say that there is a sense of consciousness that exists independently of the body.

Now some (who I call the Theory 1 supporters) adopt the concept that the soul equates to this consciousness. So this means the the soul and demon have two distinct consciousnesses and are effectively two separate individuals. This makes the task of holding Angel and Spike responsible for the things the demon did highly problematic.

My personal favourite however is Theory 2. This means that the individual has a 'spirit' which equates to their consciousness etc, but this is distinct from their soul, which is for want of a better term, a conscience.

So let us put this in simple terms

Theory 1

Liam= Human soul (spirit)+human physiology

Angelus= Demon Spirit and physiology- human soul.

Angel= Demon Spirit and physiology+ human soul (which is in control and somehow remembers everything the demon spirit did.

Theory 2

Liam= Human spirit+human physiology+human soul (conscience)

Angelus= Human spirit+demon physiology-human soul

Angel= Human spirit+demon physiology+human soul.

So under Theory 2, Angel is basically the same individual persisting through time under different 'conditions'. This the reason human Angel in IWRY, identifies more with being Angel than he does with being Liam. Basically because of the memories he's accrued through time. It's the same reason DarkWes wouldn't go back to being WatcherWes unless he lost his memories.

Different or the Same?

Under the second theory, Angel and Spike are the same Cartesian individuals they always were. It also makes more sense with their use of pronouns and their respective narratives. Angel talks about the things he's done and remembering it with a conscience. This only makes sense under theory 2. Essentially, Angelus was a complete bastard, so he was cursed with the ability to care about his past actions, which eventually led him to want to redeem himself.

Many people comment on the differences between Spike and Angel or more importantly, Angelus and Angel. My arguments has always been the reason why Angel and Spike react to their soul is more or less psychological. It's like, two soldiers going to war and one coming back with PTSD. We don't judge the soldier with PTSD, it's just that his brain reacted differently to the stimuli, than the other soldier's brain.

Also theory 2 makes more sense in context to these exchanges.

ANGEL
(stops, turns to Spike angrily)
Fair?! You asked for a soul. I didn't! It almost killed me. I spent a hundred years trying to come to terms with infinite remorse. You spent 3 weeks moaning in a basement, and then you were fine! What's fair about that?!

SPIKE
Well, that's just it. I am. And you know it. You had a soul forced on you as a curse. Make you suffer for all the horrible things you'd done. But me... I fought for my soul. Went through the demon trials. Almost did me in a dozen times over, but I kept fighting.

Angel only attacks his motivations, but not the actuality of what Spike said before.


When I have more time, I'll probably look into this more. The subjects, I'd like to look at are the sense of personal identity, guilt and responsibility and also the metaphysical mess that is Ats Season 4.

 

[bespangeled]

ANGEL
Do you love me?

BUFFY
What?

ANGEL
Do you?

BUFFY
I love you. I don't know if I trust you.





Yeah, she's enraptured with Angel all right, you really get their relationship...

I won't even bother to quote 'Amends' for you, where Angel tries to kill himself from all the guilt he's feeling while Buffy tearfully tries to stop him.

I'll just let this speak for itself. 😉

And I flat-out hate the fact that Angel asks her to tell him she loved him before he would tell her the truth! I have no idea what they were looking for when they stuck that bit of scene in it - there is no way it doesn't sound manipulative. Keep in mind that Buffy is only 16 years old.

 

[thetopher]

And I flat-out hate the fact that Angel asks her to tell him she loved him before he would tell her the truth!

You could argue that Angel is being really manipulative...or he's just massively insecure.
Remember that Angel (with a soul) has never been in love before, when it comes to loves he himself ins't that much more mature than Buffy. And the last time that Buffy found out a big secret about him (that he was a vampire) they both reacted badly and Angel (briefly) wanted Buffy to kill him. His self-loathing (which has been with him for a hundred plus years remember) is waring with his demon self.

I think its entirely understandeable that Angel wants just a little reassurance from the girl his loves before saying 'hey, here's a bunch of horrific stuff I did to one of my victims.'

But then again, maybe he was just trying to 'impress' Buffy with his Byronesque brooding. I've heard that one before.

 

[bespangeled]

I think my thoughts on this subject are well documented. As far as I'm concerned, the method of answering the question of Angel's identity, is starting with attempting to define what the soul is.

As I've said many times before, I believe in a dualist slant on the 'Verse. That is to say that there is a sense of consciousness that exists independently of the body.

Now some (who I call the Theory 1 supporters) adopt the concept that the soul equates to this consciousness. So this means the the soul and demon have two distinct consciousnesses and are effectively two separate individuals. This makes the task of holding Angel and Spike responsible for the things the demon did highly problematic.

My personal favourite however is Theory 2. This means that the individual has a 'spirit' which equates to their consciousness etc, but this is distinct from their soul, which is for want of a better term, a conscience.

So let us put this in simple terms

Theory 1

Liam= Human soul (spirit)+human physiology

Angelus= Demon Spirit and physiology- human soul.

Angel= Demon Spirit and physiology+ human soul (which is in control and somehow remembers everything the demon spirit did.

Theory 2

Liam= Human spirit+human physiology+human soul (conscience)

Angelus= Human spirit+demon physiology-human soul

Angel= Human spirit+demon physiology+human soul.

So under Theory 2, Angel is basically the same individual persisting through time under different 'conditions'. This the reason human Angel in IWRY, identifies more with being Angel than he does with being Liam. Basically because of the memories he's accrued through time. It's the same reason DarkWes wouldn't go back to being WatcherWes unless he lost his memories.

Different or the Same?

Under the second theory, Angel and Spike are the same Cartesian individuals they always were. It also makes more sense with their use of pronouns and their respective narratives. Angel talks about the things he's done and remembering it with a conscience. This only makes sense under theory 2. Essentially, Angelus was a complete bastard, so he was cursed with the ability to care about his past actions, which eventually led him to want to redeem himself.

Many people comment on the differences between Spike and Angel or more importantly, Angelus and Angel. My arguments has always been the reason why Angel and Spike react to their soul is more or less psychological. It's like, two soldiers going to war and one coming back with PTSD. We don't judge the soldier with PTSD, it's just that his brain reacted differently to the stimuli, than the other soldier's brain.

Also theory 2 makes more sense in context to these exchanges.

ANGEL
(stops, turns to Spike angrily)
Fair?! You asked for a soul. I didn't! It almost killed me. I spent a hundred years trying to come to terms with infinite remorse. You spent 3 weeks moaning in a basement, and then you were fine! What's fair about that?!

SPIKE
Well, that's just it. I am. And you know it. You had a soul forced on you as a curse. Make you suffer for all the horrible things you'd done. But me... I fought for my soul. Went through the demon trials. Almost did me in a dozen times over, but I kept fighting.

Angel only attacks his motivations, but not the actuality of what Spike said before.


When I have more time, I'll probably look into this more. The subjects, I'd like to look at are the sense of personal identity, guilt and responsibility and also the metaphysical mess that is Ats Season 4.

Do you have more time yet? 🙂

 

[bespangeled]

And it speaks of pure teenage vampire romance novels. In his effort to break one genre, the helpless blonde victim, Joss fell into another cliched genre, where dark, mysterious heroes with tragic pasts meet and fall helplessly in love with innocent young girls and bravely try, for the girl own sake, to send her away by regaling her with horrific stories of his evil past. Even though our hero knows that nothing that he might say or do will send little Blondie away, even for his own good, still, he has to try, all the time knowing that it is this tragic past that draws her to him like the proverbial moth to the irresistible flame.

Hey, I love the story as much as anybody, but it's pure cliche, and if Angel doesn't know that all of that dark evil confession of his terrible past is just going to make Buffy love him more, is going to show her just how much better a man he is now, when she just KNOWS it's her love for him, and his for her, that has made her what he is now, then he is a fool, albeit a noble one.

Harlequin and other publishers like them have been making millions by rerunning that exact same plot, with only minor changes, for decades.

Well, I'd say both are pure cliche. Angel is the brooding hero bowed under by a horrible past, guilty of sin, and saved by the innocent blond - her faith in him and her love.

Spike is the bad boy who secretly hides the soul of a poet - who believes he can love the a creature of light but ends up hurting her, then makes amends.

Buffy was the one who believed in both of them, and loved both of them - though in different ways and for different reasons. She was the catalyst for both vampires to become who they were in season 5 AtS. I don't read the comics but I do know that it has to be hard for both souled vamps to love humans - something they have never done - and to lose them to the inevitability of death.

The thing is that Whedon brought so much more to this - the characters all have depth and nuance. In part that is the interaction between the demon and the soul. Part of the reason that I like Spangel is not that I see any romance - I really don't. But I see two beings who will be here long after all the humans are gone. Two beings who understand having both a demon and a soul. They are very different in temperament and philosophy, but they always have each others back. And they will have memories of people to share long after anyone who knew those people is dead.

 

[white avenger]

Well, I'd say both are pure cliche. Angel is the brooding hero bowed under by a horrible past, guilty of sin, and saved by the innocent blond - her faith in him and her love.

Spike is the bad boy who secretly hides the soul of a poet - who believes he can love the a creature of light but ends up hurting her, then makes amends.

Buffy was the one who believed in both of them, and loved both of them - though in different ways and for different reasons. She was the catalyst for both vampires to become who they were in season 5 AtS. I don't read the comics but I do know that it has to be hard for both souled vamps to love humans - something they have never done - and to lose them to the inevitability of death.

The thing is that Whedon brought so much more to this - the characters all have depth and nuance. In part that is the interaction between the demon and the soul. Part of the reason that I like Spangel is not that I see any romance - I really don't. But I see two beings who will be here long after all the humans are gone. Two beings who understand having both a demon and a soul. They are very different in temperament and philosophy, but they always have each others back. And they will have memories of people to share long after anyone who knew those people is dead.

Taking the cliche a bit farther, speaking of Spangel, have you ever , by any chance, seen the classic John Wayne movie, "Red River?" John Wayne and Montgomery Clift, playing Tom Dunson and Matthew Garth. the relationship almost totally mirrors Angel/Spike, from pseudo father/mentor and son/student to sworn enemies, to the final showdown and the revelation that the two men respect, even love each other (in a true father/son fashion, the Duke doesn't swing THAT way, even if Clift did) ultimately becoming equals and partners.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

As much as I think Whedon is a hack writer and gets too much credit, I would like to point out there is a huge difference between archetype and cliche. A cliche is used when the writer gets lazy, as the series is littered with them as it goes along. Archetypes are themes and concepts reflected from other media to give a sense of familiarity.

The tall, dark, brooding hero is an archetype, the fact he is a vampire with a soul is what prevents it from being a cliche; as at the time, sparkly vampires did not exist. The perky, blonde cheerleader is another archetype, the fact she is a kick-ass vampire slayer is what prevents her from being a cliche; as, at the time Anita Blake did not exist.

It's the overabundance, and constant reuse of prior archetype and tropes which is what makes the writing cliche. The no happy ending cliche is a prime example.