Angel with Buffy: Abusive Boyfriend?

[Anita Blake]

Speaking as someone who has both witnessed long-time abusive relationships and been in one, I don't for one minute think that Angel was abusive towards Buffy. Overprotective, maybe. But, it really depends on who you are and what you feel about that subject. We as humans, have evolved psychological mechanisms that cue our responses on how we react to our mates for the large part. I'm not trying to be sexist, but males have evolved to protect females, especially those who are their 'mates.' Buffy was a girl that was constantly getting beat up or put in life-endangering situations. It was normal for him to be a bit more protective than normal, even if she could handle it herself. I don't find anything unreasonable about that.

Also, other than when he was Angelus, I don't recall any situation where he was mentally or psychologically abusive to her. Even a few times when he might've been harsh, that's just what happens when you have emotions. And sometimes people need a cold dose of reality.

IMO, Buffy's relationship with Spike was loads and tons more unhealthy than Buffy/Angel. Not only was she not in her 'right frame of mind' when they got together, but his attitude towards her had been unhealthy from the start. There was plenty of evidence of both co-dependency and personality disorders, depression, mania, and other psychological problems that gave me a bad feeling when I watched the scenes of them together. And just from Buffy using him to start with, that smacks of a lot of emotional turmoil and instability.

As far as the Edward/Angel similarities, I'm not sure. I definitely likened the two together when I read the books, but it wasn't in thoughts of them having similar abuse patterns. I think the Twilight novels get a lot of flack because of the fact they portray Bella as less than an uber-feminist. Meyer is a Mormon and her personal viewpoints often come thought in her writing. Its sort of an overlapping theme in her books. They may not be among my favorite books, but I have an appreciation for her writing and her talent. The storyline is interesting and well-developed for the most part, it kept me reading all the way through the last book. I think maybe the way Edward treated/acted towards Bella was slightly alien to mainstream readers, but I doubt that it was an abusive relationship.

You also have to remember that these worlds are fictional, with vampires which means that they're not going to act like traditional humans anyways. For a fictional species that was once considered something to scare people with, growing to its contemporary popularity, its very surprising that they aren't overtly abusive. In both BTVS and Twilight, vampires aren't actually cuddly, friendly people. With a few exceptions they're vicious, blood-thirsty, human-killing monsters. Is it even fair to hold vampire boyfriend to the same standards of human boyfriends? lol

 

[Wishing Oceans]

IMO, Buffy's relationship with Spike was loads and tons more unhealthy than Buffy/Angel. Not only was she not in her 'right frame of mind' when they got together, but his attitude towards her had been unhealthy from the start. There was plenty of evidence of both co-dependency and personality disorders, depression, mania, and other psychological problems that gave me a bad feeling when I watched the scenes of them together. And just from Buffy using him to start with, that smacks of a lot of emotional turmoil and instability.

It seems as though you've forgotten about S7, the REAL spuffy season. 😀

 

[Anita Blake]

Nope, I didn't forget about that. I didn't think that they're relationship transition was very realistic for season 7 when I was watching it the first time around. Watching it other times, you could still see certain stuff. Yeah, the writers had made it less dark and damaging, but relationships built on an unstable foundation are still unhealthy. What I watched still didn't seem very approval-worthy then.

(I'm sorry to get all psychological on everyone. Considering its my chosen profession, I tend to get carried away sometimes. ><)

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Nope, I didn't forget about that. I didn't think that they're relationship transition was very realistic for season 7 when I was watching it the first time around. Watching it other times, you could still see certain stuff. Yeah, the writers had made it less dark and damaging, but relationships built on an unstable foundation are still unhealthy. What I watched still didn't seem very approval-worthy then.

(I'm sorry to get all psychological on everyone. Considering its my chosen profession, I tend to get carried away sometimes. ><)

You know I have to confess something. Before I came here, and before I was apart of any Buffy forum or chatting about it online, I never saw Spuffy as a couple. I never gave them that credit. I don't know why, I guess I was thinking all of Buffy's loves has to be gentle. I guess that's only the case with her true love 🙂

 

[Wishing Oceans]

You know I have to confess something. Before I came here, and before I was apart of any Buffy forum or chatting about it online, I never saw Spuffy as a couple. I never gave them that credit. I don't know why, I guess I was thinking all of Buffy's loves has to be gentle. I guess that's only the case with her true love 🙂

Personally, I think that spuffy WAS gentle. Touched, anyone? They had a very trusting relationship. Joss himself said in the Chosen commentary that "their relationship had enough trust in it that it was physical, and romantic, but not sexual."

Nope, I didn't forget about that. I didn't think that they're relationship transition was very realistic for season 7 when I was watching it the first time around. Watching it other times, you could still see certain stuff. Yeah, the writers had made it less dark and damaging, but relationships built on an unstable foundation are still unhealthy. What I watched still didn't seem very approval-worthy then.

What do you mean by "an unstable foundation"?


Guys, I do believe that we are getting seriously off- topic here. 😀

 

[Anita Blake]

By unstable foundation, I mean the groundwork on which their relationship was being built. Seriously, going from trying to kill each other, hating each other, even before there was a sexual component, you then add that, giving you a relationship that was seriously screwed up. They were using each other, at least one of them was emotionally unstable, and the other had some serious problems anyways. Spuffy was far from gentle. Buffy didn't really have any gentle relationships.

If anything, the Spuffy relationship was the closest to an abusive one she was in. I still remember watching Spike almost raping Buffy and being extremely shocked and horrified. There was also more violence between them than with any of the other guys. I've never been a huge Spuffy basher, but I'm in no way a fan. Its the kind of relationship I would counsel people to avoid and/or remove themselves from.

I don't think we're off-topic at all. Its just an expansion of the original topic, still with the same theme though.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

By unstable foundation, I mean the groundwork on which their relationship was being built. Seriously, going from trying to kill each other, hating each other, even before there was a sexual component, you then add that, giving you a relationship that was seriously screwed up. They were using each other, at least one of them was emotionally unstable, and the other had some serious problems anyways. Spuffy was far from gentle. Buffy didn't really have any gentle relationships.

Hey, that's what I love MOST about spuffy! 🙂 I think that's what makes Spuffy such an interesting couple: They've been through everything together, they've seen each other at their best and worst, and they know EXACTLY who the other person is and they still them. Again, they WERE gentle in S7, when Spike actually HAD A SOUL. 😀

If anything, the Spuffy relationship was the closest to an abusive one she was in. I still remember watching Spike almost raping Buffy and being extremely shocked and horrified. There was also more violence between them than with any of the other guys. I've never been a huge Spuffy basher, but I'm in no way a fan. Its the kind of relationship I would counsel people to avoid and/or remove themselves from.

One, we have to remember that this is a fantasy realm. Two, I Spike didn't realize what he was doing was wrong: In their relationship, they both caused each other a lot of pain, and no always meant yes. Also, he had NO SOUL. Lack of a soul means lack of whatever it is that helps us distinguish between right and wrong, as said by Joss. He didn't understand the boundaries, but in S7, neither of them ever hurt each other, unless they were under the influence of evil. Bangel, IMO, was a lot more dangerous than Spuffy was. 🙂

I don't think we're off-topic at all. Its just an expansion of the original topic, still with the same theme though.

Yes, but it seems that we're getting ourselves into a bit of a 'ship war. I mean, really, what has Spuffy got to do with it anyway? 😀

 

[Anita Blake]

The thread started with asking our opinions on whether or not the relationships are abusive. Okay, for one, this was going to be a controversial topic, because I am sure I am not the only victim of an abusive relationship on this message board. The second thing I would like to point out is that I was using it as an example. To make my point about the other stuff. My first post was all about the Buffy/Angel, Edward/Bella dynamics. I was hoping someone would post back about those parts.

It doesn't really matter whether or not this is a fantasy realm we're talking about. The behavior is going to be based upon real human interactions (even if they're not suppose to be human in fantasy-land) because that is how they humanize them, to make the characters approachable and understandable to viewers. Saying that someone didn't realize what they were doing was wrong, isn't a valid argument for defending an action that is in its very nature, 'wrong.' No did not always mean 'yes', either.

I would like to leave off the Spuffy argument and ask what you thought about the majority of my first post, the stuff that was relevant to the thread, since nothing was really ever said about that. 🙂 That's what I wanted to discuss anyways. Nobody has even argued against my thoughts on the B/A, E/B stuff yet. 🙁 /sadface lol

 

[hannahfngrl26]

So this is a great topic. Being the avid Bangel lover that I am I have to defend our Angel. I, too, am rewatching the first season of BTVS right now and I think that there are several things that contributed to the long and spiraly road that is Buffy and Angels relationship. I understand that Angel was obviously way older than Buffy but in some aspects his maturity level was very similar to Buffys. Especially as it relates to loving relationships. We already know that Angel never truly loved a woman the way a man can until he met Buffy. I really feel like his feelings on the matter contributed to his many decisions in regards to their relationship. I really feel like that is why even Angelus wanted to focus solely on her. He hated the way she made Angel feel and for that she had to pay. Now, in regards to their sexual relationship. I believe that he was like anyone who is truly in love. He knew that she was young and somewhat naive and that was why he constantly warned her that he did not want their relationship to go too far but in the end he caved just like any man would when the woman you love wants to be intimate with you, especially the first time. So in short, I know that some of his decisions could be viewed as controlling but in the end he is always trying to do whats best for her but love keeps overtaking the concerns and fears. I really feel like that was why he made the decision he did in I Will Remember You. Ultimately, he did what was best for her, even though it killed him to do it. I think that is gracious, not controlling.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

So this is a great topic. Being the avid Bangel lover that I am I have to defend our Angel. I, too, am rewatching the first season of BTVS right now and I think that there are several things that contributed to the long and spiraly road that is Buffy and Angels relationship. I understand that Angel was obviously way older than Buffy but in some aspects his maturity level was very similar to Buffys.

I disagree. Buffy, when he first met her, was BARELY older than fourteen. She was also a complete ditz. "I'm completely destiny free!" "And I was like, Dad are you trying to torture me? Making me wear the same dress twice??!".... She was actually more airheaded than most fourteen/ fifteen year olds I know. Angel, however, had lived a "full, rich life" to quote Kate from Dear Boy. He has murdered, tortured, raped, abused, and many other things to thousands of people. I think it's fair to say that he several lifetimes of knowledge and experience on Buffy, who's never even left the state. (Until S8) Buffy may have had a destiny that forced her to grow up quicker than most, but she was still a young girl, who hated work and constantly complained about her gift. There is just no possible way for them to be on the same level.

Especially as it relates to loving relationships. We already know that Angel never truly loved a woman the way a man can until he met Buffy.

I never really saw the love in their relationship, it always seemed father/ daughter, sister/ brother, torturer/ torturee (Angelus) to me. 🙂

I really feel like his feelings on the matter contributed to his many decisions in regards to their relationship.

There's a problem right there. "His many decisions in regards to their relationship." Their in a relationship, it HAS to be THEIR decisions! If he thinks that she is too immature and naive to make her own decisions, then there is a serious problem and he shouldn't have gone out with her in the first place.

I really feel like that is why even Angelus wanted to focus solely on her. He hated the way she made Angel feel and for that she had to pay.

Yup, Angelus had no humanity in him, which made him hate everything that made him FEEL human before.

Now, in regards to their sexual relationship. I believe that he was like anyone who is truly in love. He knew that she was young and somewhat naive and that was why he constantly warned her that he did not want their relationship to go too far but in the end he caved just like any man would when the woman you love wants to be intimate with you, especially the first time.

If he believed that their relationship wasn't yet ready for it, then they shouldn't have. But since that was Buff's "bad" and this is a topic of Angel I'll let it slip. 😀 Also, didn't he KNOW about the restrictions of the curse..? I'm still kinda fuzzy on that, but if he did, he certainly should have told her.

So in short, I know that some of his decisions could be viewed as controlling but in the end he is always trying to do whats best for her but love keeps overtaking the concerns and fears. I really feel like that was why he made the decision he did in I Will Remember You. Ultimately, he did what was best for her, even though it killed him to do it. I think that is gracious, not controlling.

But it's not his job to decide "what's best for her". If she's truly a mature adult that's ready for a mature relationship, then she shouldn't NEED anyone to make decisions for her. She's old enough to make them for herself, and in a relationship it should be TWO PEOPLE making decisions that will affect them both, not one. He's not her DAD, he needn't have to.

It doesn't really matter whether or not this is a fantasy realm we're talking about. The behavior is going to be based upon real human interactions (even if they're not suppose to be human in fantasy-land) because that is how they humanize them, to make the characters approachable and understandable to viewers.

Yes, but we have to understand that things are still a lot different then they are in real life. In real life, a 15 year old girl would NOT be dating a vampire. Also you said before

You also have to remember that these worlds are fictional, with vampires which means that they're not going to act like traditional humans anyways. For a fictional species that was once considered something to scare people with, growing to its contemporary popularity, its very surprising that they aren't overtly abusive. In both BTVS and Twilight, vampires aren't actually cuddly, friendly people. With a few exceptions they're vicious, blood-thirsty, human-killing monsters. Is it even fair to hold vampire boyfriend to the same standards of human boyfriends? lol

Saying that someone didn't realize what they were doing was wrong, isn't a valid argument for defending an action that is in its very nature, 'wrong.'

How so? If someone was doing a wrong action that they thought was a right action, then... Spike, seeing as he had no soul, didn't understand that Buffy MEANT no this time. He also was, as Seeing Red reminded us, essentially a soulless vampire. He may fight for good, but he still doesn't really have a grasp on humanity.

No did not always mean 'yes', either.

It definitely usually did:

Tabula Rasa: "I will never kiss you Spike, never touch you, ever! Ever, again!!" Buffy said no, at the end of the episode she was making out with him.

Smashed: "Once was-" "Twice." "But not again." Once again, by the end of the episode "no" turned into "yes"

Wrecked: "No, I have to-" "Stay, I'm stuck here. Sun's out" ("No", leading to making out.) "No, stop, ow!" And then making out.

Gone: "Stop trying to see me." Mhmm, once again, she said no, ended up as a yes.

Dead Things (The balcony scene): "Don't." "Stop me." No= Yes.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Maybe that's why you don't like Bangel. You see them as a father - daughter relathionship, and in fact, they are on diffrent level.

 

[Anita Blake]

Yes, but we have to understand that things are still a lot different then they are in real life. In real life, a 15 year old girl would NOT be dating a vampire.

I do believe that the whole premise of this thread, which you created, was to explore the relationship between young girls and vampires, whether or not we considered them abusive. You asked us to give our opinions, meaning we had to base our criteria for judging abuse on real life scales. Experience, education, statistics...we're going to be looking at stuff from real world, not fantasy. You can't pick out one thing and say 'That's okay then, because its fantasy' and then base your whole argument for them being abusive on comparisons between real life healthy relationships and the other.

You seem to have a different criteria for judging Spuffy, then you do Bangel or Bella/Edward.

It definitely usually did:

Usually does not equal always.

How so? If someone was doing a wrong action that they thought was a right action, then... Spike, seeing as he had no soul, didn't understand that Buffy MEANT no this time. He also was, as Seeing Red reminded us, essentially a soulless vampire. He may fight for good, but he still doesn't really have a grasp on humanity.

Wrong actions are based on the socially acceptable forms for actions to take. For example, if you were to kill someone, even if you didn't know it was wrong or think it was wrong, its still wrong. You violated another individual's rights. Wrong actions are more the view points of others condemning or reinforcing what you have done as positive or negative. Much like the way beating your wife used to be condoned by the Christian Church. At that point, they didn't see it as wrong or immoral. Its very different nowadays though.

Plus, the way you are describing Spike and Buffy's relationship, is in no way sounding healthy. No 'always' means yes? Spike didn't understand that Buffy didn't want to have sex with him, so he nearly raped her? That's very much like descriptions of actual abuse stories that I've heard.

I feel like I should point out that, though I have been trying to redirect this thread to its original topic, my efforts seem to be failing. I was hoping someone would debate my stance from my first post on the Angel/Buffy/Edward/Bella thing more. 🙁

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Usually does not equal always.
Wrong actions are based on the socially acceptable forms for actions to take. For example, if you were to kill someone, even if you didn't know it was wrong or think it was wrong, its still wrong. You violated another individual's rights. Wrong actions are more the view points of others condemning or reinforcing what you have done as positive or negative. Much like the way beating your wife used to be condoned by the Christian Church. At that point, they didn't see it as wrong or immoral. Its very different nowadays though.

Yes, I agree, and it WAS wrong. But he didn't understand it. Like, say someone with mental retardation hit a little kid. It's wrong to do, but the person didn't understand that. Beating your wife? By a CHURCH? No wonder I don't go to church anymore. 😀 (That was a joke, folks. 🙂 )

Plus, the way you are describing Spike and Buffy's relationship, is in no way sounding healthy. No 'always' means yes? Spike didn't understand that Buffy didn't want to have sex with him, so he nearly raped her? That's very much like descriptions of actual abuse stories that I've heard.

Yes, and I completely agree that it was NOT a healthy relationship. But he was soulless. When he had a soul, he never hit or or hurt her at all. As PrincessBuffy16 pointed out, Angel hit her twice with a soul.

I feel like I should point out that, though I have been trying to redirect this thread to its original topic, my efforts seem to be failing. I was hoping someone would debate my stance from my first post on the Angel/Buffy/Edward/Bella thing more. 🙁

Sorry, I attempted, but apparently my editing took more than 15 minutes. 🙁

Also, other than when he was Angelus, I don't recall any situation where he was mentally or psychologically abusive to her. Even a few times when he might've been harsh, that's just what happens when you have emotions. And sometimes people need a cold dose of reality.

How about IWRY? At the end, he absolutely DID NOT have to tell her what was going to happen. It wasn't productive in any way, all it did was make her cry and feel horrible.

IMO, Buffy's relationship with Spike was loads and tons more unhealthy than Buffy/Angel. Not only was she not in her 'right frame of mind' when they got together, but his attitude towards her had been unhealthy from the start. There was plenty of evidence of both co-dependency and personality disorders, depression, mania, and other psychological problems that gave me a bad feeling when I watched the scenes of them together. And just from Buffy using him to start with, that smacks of a lot of emotional turmoil and instability.

No denying that. 🙂 But in s7, it developed into a very beautiful, trusting, romantic relationship. He never hit her and never hurt her. 🙂

As far as the Edward/Angel similarities, I'm not sure. I definitely likened the two together when I read the books, but it wasn't in thoughts of them having similar abuse patterns. I think the Twilight novels get a lot of flack because of the fact they portray Bella as less than an uber-feminist. Meyer is a Mormon and her personal viewpoints often come thought in her writing. Its sort of an overlapping theme in her books. They may not be among my favorite books, but I have an appreciation for her writing and her talent. The storyline is interesting and well-developed for the most part, it kept me reading all the way through the last book. I think maybe the way Edward treated/acted towards Bella was slightly alien to mainstream readers, but I doubt that it was an abusive relationship.

Oh, boy. This is a very juicy topic for me indeed. 🙂 In case you're wondering, I've read all the books and I've watched the movies. In the beginning, I love Twilight. But the whole while I was reading it, I had a disturbed feeling in my stomach, and I wasn't sure why. IMO, Edward is one of the most abusive "hero" character out their. He has frequently shown emotional frailty, he has physically threatened Bella and actually PHYSICAL kept her from seeing her friends. He has held her hostage, and has emotionally controlled/ manipulated her. He has insulted her before, and uses many control tactics on her. He is WAY overprotective, and he forces her to not do things that she wants to do. He gives her no say in the relationship, and he has threatened to kill himself if she ever breaks up with him. That is an abusive control tactic, it is against the law, and if I may say so myself Edward is quite wack. 😀 Anyway, Angel is MUCH better than Edward. Also, IMO, Twilight has no plot and no storyline. I hate it very much. There's not even a story, really, it's like a cheap version of Romeo and Juliet or something. Again, all in a hater's opinion. 😀 As for their similarities, I agree. They really aren't that similar, other than they're both vampires with a sketch past who claimed to love their gals the moment they saw them.

Here are some FANTABULOUS links to websites that explain how Edward is abusive: http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/recycle-bin/edward-cullen-abusive-boyfriend-eclipse-spoilers/t.26745143/
Edward Cullen is an abusive, controlling boyfriend!

They are written AMAZING well, could convince anyone really, and I definitely recommend them. 🙂

You also have to remember that these worlds are fictional, with vampires which means that they're not going to act like traditional humans anyways. For a fictional species that was once considered something to scare people with, growing to its contemporary popularity, its very surprising that they aren't overtly abusive. In both BTVS and Twilight, vampires aren't actually cuddly, friendly people. With a few exceptions they're vicious, blood-thirsty, human-killing monsters. Is it even fair to hold vampire boyfriend to the same standards of human boyfriends? lol

That's kind of exactly what I said with the fantasy realm, Anita. 🙂

 

[Flannen]

I disagree. Buffy, when he first met her, was BARELY older than fourteen.

I think she was closer to sixteen than she was fourteen. And anyway it's painted she was still fifteen, nearly sixteen 😉

She was also a complete ditz. "I'm completely destiny free!" "And I was like, Dad are you trying to torture me? Making me wear the same dress twice??!".... She was actually more airheaded than most fourteen/ fifteen year olds I know. Angel, however, had lived a "full, rich life" to quote Kate from Dear Boy. He has murdered, tortured, raped, abused, and many other things to thousands of people. I think it's fair to say that he several lifetimes of knowledge and experience on Buffy, who's never even left the state. (Until S8) Buffy may have had a destiny that forced her to grow up quicker than most, but she was still a young girl, who hated work and constantly complained about her gift. There is just no possible way for them to be on the same level.

Everything you have described refers to Angelus, not Angel. Angelus was way above her, Angel, however, was certainly not. Angel was just as naive as Buffy was, he was pretty much having to mature and grow into a man as Buffy was into a woman.

I never really saw the love in their relationship, it always seemed father/ daughter, sister/ brother, torturer/ torturee (Angelus) to me. 🙂

This just boggles my mind 😛

There's a problem right there. "His many decisions in regards to their relationship." Their in a relationship, it HAS to be THEIR decisions! If he thinks that she is too immature and naive to make her own decisions, then there is a serious problem and he shouldn't have gone out with her in the first place.

I think that in any of the times, which were actually very few, that Angel felt he had to make the decision, was actually him having to make the first move. Buffy was too absorbed by her emotions and instead of letting their relationship become a shell of what it was once, he had to be the bad guy and make the tough call.

If he believed that their relationship wasn't yet ready for it, then they shouldn't have. But since that was Buff's "bad" and this is a topic of Angel I'll let it slip. 😀 Also, didn't he KNOW about the restrictions of the curse..? I'm still kinda fuzzy on that, but if he did, he certainly should have told her.

Nope, Angel had no idea about the restrictions of the curse. Think what you want of Angel, but there is no way Angel would have purposefully let Angelus be released for anything. He had no idea of the 'one moment of true happiness' clause.

But it's not his job to decide "what's best for her". If she's truly a mature adult that's ready for a mature relationship, then she shouldn't NEED anyone to make decisions for her. She's old enough to make them for herself, and in a relationship it should be TWO PEOPLE making decisions that will affect them both, not one. He's not her DAD, he needn't have to.

That's very easy to say. But it can be VERY difficult not to try to do something for your partner when you think you can help, or when you feel like you are standing in their way, or if you see them hurting you so desperately want to do something to stop it. Maybe that's why Angel's actions have never bothered me too much because I can relate to the reasons why.

How so? If someone was doing a wrong action that they thought was a right action, then... Spike, seeing as he had no soul, didn't understand that Buffy MEANT no this time. He also was, as Seeing Red reminded us, essentially a soulless vampire. He may fight for good, but he still doesn't really have a grasp on humanity.

I do see this point, but I don't think it as strong for Spike as it would be for Angelus, actually. Spike really did have a grasp on humanity, that's a huge part of Spike's character. And like I've said a lot in the past, there was a huge difference in the way Buffy said 'no' this time.

 

[ubi4soft]

I wouldn't call it abusive but slightly manipulative: the scene in Lie to Me where Buffy asks Angel about Drusilla and, before he answers, he asks first if she loves him. What's your opinion on that?

 

[hannahfngrl26]

As I am reading all these retorts I feel like we are missing the big picture. I just want to say that in a relationship, yes, it would be nice that both parties get to make decisions together and in some aspects this happens but it cant always be like that. People make decisions for themselves when they need to or have to for that matter. I think it is unreasonable to say that Buffy should have had a say in everything. When Angel decided to change the past he did the right thing, whether Buffy had a say or not. In this case, I know he did the right thing, the noble thing.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

I wouldn't call it abusive but slightly manipulative: the scene in Lie to Me where Buffy asks Angel about Drusilla and, before he answers, he asks first if she loves him. What's your opinion on that?

I think he was just making sure that after hearing everything he did to that poor girl she would still love him.

 

[GrrArghx]

I don't see how. The reason for everything Angel did was because he loved her SO much. The kind of love you make sacrifices for. If he was abusive in any of the ways you mentioned, he wouldn't have left her. He did that because he knew the two of them couldn't grow old together, and have children, and etc.

& we know why Angel didn't tell her beforehand in IWRY. Buffy wouldn't have let him give back his humanity.

 

[Anita Blake]

(Been trying frantically to finish up my work before vacation starts, but I didn't want you to think I had forgotten, so here is a brief post. I'll do better later!)

Okay, so, we've been arguing back and forth, back and forth about little bitty things that the guys would do that would make them seem abusive. BTVS was my all time favorite show back in the day and I really enjoyed reading all the Twilight books. I own them, I've read them more than once.

I feel like I might need to get a little bit personal when I tell you why I, for one, in no way think that their relationships were abusive.

I think that the word abusive is used way to liberally today. People can call CPS when someone just spanks their kids. I've known women to use it to get back at their boyfriends. The brother of one of my best friends was in jail for 7 months because his girlfriend lied and said that he hit her and he never did. I have first hand experience of abuse. More than one kind. I'm in my chosen profession today because of what I went through growing up.

When your husband comes home so drunk and angry, proceeds to beat and throw you around until you can get away, and you spend hours in a closet with a knife, repeating over and over that you are going to kill yourself if he comes for you again. That's abusive. When he threatens and tries to hurt you bad enough so that you lose the baby you're carrying, that's abusive. When he comes home and gets so angry at you for paying more attention to the puppy than him, so he picks it up and throws it against the wall to kill it, that's abusive. When you spend seventeen years in a relationship, letting yourself take the beatings because you don't want him to hurt your kids...that's abusive. When your boyfriend makes you so afraid of talking to your friends, that you can't even leave your house or talk to them on the phone, that's abusive. Its hard to pin down emotional and mental abuse, but nobody ever notices until they're already starting to get so downtrodden they can't summon the strength to walk away. But that's why its worse. Spending every night crying because you end up thinking you've done something wrong to upset him, so afraid that if you don't do things to make him happy he'll cheat and/or leave you, listening him tell you over and over that you're not good enough/you're a terrible girlfriend/you are a terrible human being...that's abusive.

So, watching a program where the guy gets a little overprotective of girl who is basically risking her life every night? Never in a million years would I put that in the same category.

As far as the Twilight books, I will concede that it was not the healthiest relationship, he did do some things that I would advise a patient to not tolerate ever. I had forgotten some of the things, because I haven't really read them since the movies came out (and since I'm pretty much disgusted with the movies, it makes me not want to remember. lol). But, still...I wouldn't classify it in the same category.

I didn't make this post for pity, or to make people feel sorry for me, I just want you to understand where I'm coming from. This is a very personal subject for me. I'll try to get back on tonight to discuss specific parts of previous posts. >< Sorry I'm so busy.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I meant when he had a soul. 😀

No, Spike never hurt Buffy with a soul and Angel did. This is what we're fighting about, right?

This is an example of arguments I feel are unfair; when one character is put down based on something another character did or didn't. It's not a very strong argument.

We should judge Angel's actions on just that - his actions and why - not based on how Spike acted in a similar situation.

---------- Post added at 11:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:40 AM ----------

How do I feel? No, I don't think Angel was abusive. Overprotective? Yes. Manipulative? Yes. Slightly controlling at times? Yes.

The very fact that Buffy was 16 at the time when they became involved was

And as Anita says, if a comparision must be made, S6 Spuffy was far more abusive - from both parties. Spike manipulated Buffy, attempted to alienate her from her friends, and fed off her sadness. Buffy took him for granted, used him as her personal sex toy, and as a punching bag. Buffy hated herself and took it out on Spike.

I've really enjoyed reading thorugh this thread, by the way. Everyone makes great points. I really appreciate when people bring up controvresial topics like this. It keeps things interesting.

Also wishing oceans, it's nice to see someone who doesn't see the Bangel relationship as a perfect romantic dream-boat like everyone else seems too. I too see a bit of a protector/child or father/daughter relationship there at times. Which makes the romance involved all the more unnerving.