Angelus and the chip

[passions1989]

My brother has been downloading the season 2 Buffy The Vampire Slayer. But after re-watching the whole Buffy series, I just can't help but wonder what would have happened if Angelus (not Angel) was the one who is captured by the Initiative and they put a chip in his head instead of Spike's. Would it have made any difference? Such as, if for example, if Angelus was the one with the chip in his head, and not Spike, then could we the audience imagine what would have happened that night (in season 6) if buffy was roughhousing with angelus (not spike) and ends up having sex with angelus (and not spike)? All we the audience have to do to imagine such a scenario is to replace Spike with Angelus in the BTVS season 6 episode 'Smashed'.

Yes I do know that Angel has got his own show during the Initiative. But that's not my point. And I know that Buffy has already had sex with Angel during season 2. But again that's not my point. Buffy having sex with angel is different, and having sex with Angelus would be a WHOLE LOT different. For one thing, Angelus is evil, diabolical, and he doesn't have a soul (pretty much what Spike was to Buffy when she started having sex with him)

Imagine for a second if Angel had not moved to L.A. and he did not have his own show. Imagine if he had stayed back in Sunnydale. And for some reason he ends up loosing his soul and reverting back to Angelus. And this time for some reason they can't restore his soul back. Imagine if he was the one with the chip in his head and not Spike. Would it have made a difference to the ending of Season Six episode 'Smashed'?

Plus I'am a bigger fan of David's acting as Angelus rather than Angel. He seems more hotter and funnier when he is acting as Angelus. So as an audience myself, I always wondered what the ending of Season six episode 'Smashed' would have been like if Angelus had replaced Spike, and Angelus was the one roughhousing Buffy and having sex with her and not Spike.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Its fun to imagine but what you're asking is a complete re-write of the entire show because the characters of Spike/Angelus or such polar opposites that their reaction to the many variables within the time frame you have laid out would make it difficult to come up with anything even remotely satisfactory that is at least on the same level as the original.

If it was something like 'What is Spike awoke Acathla and Angelus helped Buffy' fair enough but this is, quite frankly, too large a change to give it any justice.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

^Angelus was the only vampire aside from the Master or Ubervamp that was completely devoid of humanity. He was immune to the Judge's sizzling power unlike other vamps.

Spike on the other hand was very human even before he got his soul. Soulless Spike still loved his mom, liked food, philosophized about love and liked the world in general. Angelus only enjoyed being evil. Angelus was portrayed as essentially pure evil, where Spike was portrayed as just doing whatever amused him. There's no way Buffy would have ever voluntarily slept with Angelus. Out of her entire Rogues gallery he was one of the most evil, more-so than Spike, Dru, Adam, the Mayor, Glory, and Warren.

 

[white avenger]

I don't think Angelus could have handled the chip. Spike, by his own assessment, was "all about the kill," and he was already suicidal after just a few issues. If he hadn't have found a natural vent for his combative nature, I think that within a few more episodes he would have taken a walk in the sunlight.

Angelus, however, seemed to be much more sadistic. Without the ability to intimidate, bully, rape, and torture, he also would have quickly reached that suicidal phase, but I don't think torturing other demons would have appealed to him that much, and raping a Fearyl (however it's spelled) demon just wouldn't have given him the same thrill.

Also, there's Buffy. She tolerated Spike at first because he was basically harmless to humans, but later, I think, because he was an asset in the fight. I can't see her putting up with Angelus torturing demons, even if it did result in lowering their numbers. And rape? I'm not sure if the image of Angelus trying to rape a Feyarl (however it's spelled) demon is more sickening or funny. Whichever it is, I just wouldn't want to watch it.

 

[LorneyTunes]

I think Buffy would have been a bit eh? What is going on, am sure Angeleus would have went completely mad, I also think he would have tried harder to get the chip removed somehow . Angeleus is all about torturing the good and the pure. Also don't see him drinking pigs blood.

Spike was kinda lazy, sometimes I think he liked have a chip , an excuse to be a bit more human, let the inner William come out with the bad poems, Spike never wanted to end the world he loves it here.

 

[Relic]

I never completely understood the chip, Spike could not even point a gun at someone if he intended to hurt them, but at the same time he could plot with Adam to destroy Buffy? Isn't that intent to hurt?

If Angelus could still plot to harm people and be evil, but could not do the act himself I think he'd survive. I think he'd get even more pleasure manipulating others/doops to do his dirty work. He would be like a kid finger-painting suddenly having no hands...he would have to use others to paint the picture in his head. It would be more work, but that is his passion...he'd still get it done.

If anything it might make him more dangerous as I don't see him as a guy to skip details or be reckless. he's be harder to reach and by necessity have to network. A dose of humility would make him all the more dangerous

I don't think Angelus and Buffy would have ever connected like Spike and Buffy did. It was well said by someone else before in this thread, Angelus is devoid of humanity. Spike claims Buffy likes a little monster in her man and he is just stating the obvious...he's very different from Angelus.

Angelus is all monster.
[br][/br]
Edit:
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What white avenger said got me thinking of a weird imaginary episode where Angelus teams up with Ethan to do the demon mojo he did on Giles to all the scoobies making them fair game.

How different could that episode have been if a chipped Angelus ran into a Giles turned demon rather than a chipped Spike. I shudder to think what Angelus would do given the opportunity to be able to 'play hands on' again with one of the scoobies.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I never completely understood the chip, Spike could not even point a gun at someone if he intended to hurt them, but at the same time he could plot with Adam to destroy Buffy? Isn't that intent to hurt?

If Angelus could still plot to harm people and be evil, but could not do the act himself I think he'd survive. I think he'd get even more pleasure manipulating others/doops to do his dirty work. He would be like a kid finger-painting suddenly having no hands...he would have to use others to paint the picture in his head. It would be more work, but that is his passion...he'd still get it done.

If anything it might make him more dangerous as I don't see him as a guy to skip details or be reckless. he's be harder to reach and by necessity have to network. A dose of humility would make him all the more dangerous

I don't think Angelus and Buffy would have ever connected like Spike and Buffy did. It was well said by someone else before in this thread, Angelus is devoid of humanity. Spike claims Buffy likes a little monster in her man and he is just stating the obvious...he's very different from Angelus.

Angelus is all monster.
[br][/br]
Edit:
[br][/br]
What white avenger said got me thinking of a weird imaginary episode where Angelus teams up with Ethan to do the demon mojo he did on Giles to all the scoobies making them fair game.

How different could that episode have been if a chipped Angelus ran into a Giles turned demon rather than a chipped Spike. I shudder to think what Angelus would do given the opportunity to be able to 'play hands on' again with one of the scoobies.

Great post. I don't know if Angelus would enjoy being a non-hands-on scheming Big Bad, but I agree that he'd use that as his outlet and still have fun. Remember how he was loving torturing Team Angel from the inside of a cage?

Angelus is also probably the smartest vampire, not that Spike is dumb, but Angelus was infamous because of a lot more than raw strength.

Probably the biggest factor that would make "Buffy & Angelus getting together" is that Angelus didn't take orders from anyone. When Angelus met the Master, rather than serving him like Darla did, he tried to take him down even though he was greatly outmatched--the Master later said that Angelus was the most vicious creature he ever met.

Then there's Jasmine, within a day or so of him agreeing to call her his master, he had betrayed her and killed her pet Beast. Again, greatly outgunned in terms of power, but he didn't care.

And the Beast, Angelus admitted that after their first meeting, he was expecting the Beast to kill him, and he chose that over a partnership, not even serving him, he would rather die than have an equal.

Actually now that I think of it, it's possible that the Chip wouldn't have even impeded Angelus since Angelus enjoyed pain.

 

[Relic]

Your post brought back an old question.

Would the chip work on Dru who was crazy in the head?

Angelus is demented as well and being devoid of humanity and its ethics, could he be programmed not to hurt someone? For him on some levels pain is joy.

Would a chip work on Glory? To them it is perspective. Humans are lowly and will croak...but if they turned them or sent them down the spirtual evolutionary road, to there minds are they hurting them...what then?

Of course you could say something similar about Spike.

Sorry, i felt the need to babble.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Well I don't think the chip's efficacy had much to do with the bearer. In the end they believed that it had its own DNA sensor so I guess it was pretty independent.

I think it would stop Dru since she felt pain, and wasn't a huge fan of it in high dosages.

It would definitely hurt Glory, could she withstand it? I don't know, she was stronger than Spike or Buffy, but Buffy & the Troll Hammer sure put the hurt on her.

Angelus on the other hand enjoyed pain. Spike facetiously said that having his hands lopped off was less pain than Angel would like. So for all we know Angelus was enough of a masochist that he'd enjoy the chip's brain shocks.

 

[palabravampiress]

Like EB, I don't think it's fair to assume that putting a chip in Angelus' head would necessarily bring him to Smashed. The characters are too different. They would react differently to the same circumstances, which would in turn drastically change the resulting circumstances and lead to different conclusions. With Smashed occurring two seasons after the initial chip implantation, it just doesn't make sense that the plot would have remained constant enough to lead to the same scenario.

That said, I think the self-destructive, depressed, much darker Buffy that we see in season 6 would have fought and slept with a chipped Angelus. I think it would have been much darker and much more destructive, though. Whatever his faults, Spike did feel genuine love for Buffy. He didn't want to hurt her -- "much." He didn't want her dead. He didn't want her tortured. He just wanted to be close to her. In many ways, he wanted to help her. These more altruistic urges were certainly mixed with heavy doses of much darker, less altruistic impulses, but that doesn't change the fact that Buffy was able to use Spike in this way in season 6 due to a reasonable degree of certainty that Spike's evil had limits. Spike *could* hurt her, but he really probably wouldn't ("much").

Angelus would be an entirely different ball of wax. If Angelus could hurt Buffy, he would. He wanted to hurt her like he hurt Dru. The events of Smashed would just be one more step in that direction. I think Angelus would have destroyed Buffy and then possibly killed or turned her.

 

[Relic]

I'm not so sure she would Palabra. I get that she is dark and hurt and looking for comfort...and Angelus does look just like Angel...but I'm not sure she could bring herself to take that action because of her love for Angel and what Angelus has done to both her and him.

With Spike I think since she never knew William, it was easy for her to sleep with Spike...and in a sense Spike did love her.

Angelus is something buffy has come to despise, If she did sleep with him I could not see it going past a single incident where she came out of it disgusted with herself.

In effect, Angelus has killed Angel. After her love of Angel and the torment of Angelus, I just can't Buffy entertaining the notion of going to Angelus.

I totally agree about Angelus trying to destroy her and turn her though. For the sake of saying we all make mistakes...if she did sleep with Angelus...just once...she might not have a chance to regret it.

 

[Alien]

I wish that we would have gotten to see more of Angelus, but in the present day, not flashbacks. I think Angelus was much better in season 2 of Buffy, than season 4 of Angel too.
As for Spike being replaced by Angelus, I think it would have been different. At the point Buffy was sleeping with Spike she didn't really have an emotional connection to him. Angelus however, has all of Angels memories, and well, he looks actually the same lol. There would be more of a emotional connection so the whole season 6 story would have been different.
Plus what would happen with spike in season 6? what would he do? Go to LA and fight vampires lol.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I think the self-destructive, depressed, much darker Buffy that we see in season 6 would have fought and slept with a chipped Angelus.

I disagree. Even Spike at his most evil was pretty morally ambiguous. He was a bad guy and murderer, but he always had a sense of honor about him. Angelus was pure evil. According to Wesley, the Watchers Council records pretty much say that Angelus was the most evil vampire ever. Doyle relays that tptb had similar thoughts.

Like Angel said, Spike asked for a soul and then it only took him a few weeks to turn himself into one of the good guys. Angelus had a soul forced on him and it took Angel 100years (+ 1 slayer & 3 liaisons to tptb) to become a Champion. Angel at his core is the polar opposite of Angelus, where soulful Spike is just Spike with more of a conscience.

Pretty much Spike is portrayed as the most human vampire ever (actually wanting a soul) where Angelus is portrayed as the most evil vampire ever (being devoid of ANY humanity)

 

[palabravampiress]

I agree about the differences between the characters of Angel and Spike. I'm just not sure how much relevance that would have on Buffy's decision.

Buffy just plain wanted to feel something. She slept with Spike not because she loved him or cared about or really felt anything toward him other than disgust, but because she wanted to feel *something* -- anything, really, even if it was merely lust and self-loathing. She wanted to feel alive. Spike was a means to an end. Her low opinion of him + his muzzle made it possible for her to use him. Buffy's sleeping with Spike had nothing to do with Spike as a person and everything to do with Spike as an available outlet for Buffy's feelings. If Angelus was in the same position -- if Angelus was an available outlet -- I certainly don't think that the difference in the characters of Spike and Angel(us) would have rendered Buffy's decision different beyond the fact that any sort of remaining sense of self preservation that she had left may have urged her to stay away in the interest of survival. That admitted, it seems equally likely to me that she may have done it anyway without caring that she might die. it is even possible that Angelus' resemblance to Angel may have made him *more* attractive to Buffy in that a monster in her former lover's skin would be more likely to make her feel *something* (and probably a complicated mix of somethings, at that). I just don't see how Angelus would have appeared as any more off limits to a dark, desperate-to-feel Buffy than Spike did. She seemed to need something extreme in order to feel anything at all. Sleeping with Angelus would certainly be extreme.

 

[fly on the wall]

I think it's pretty much impossible to say that Buffy and Angelus would have been in the same place in Smashed.
If it had been Angelus instead of Spike, and Spike hadn't been there, the entire series would have been different. Everything would have been affected and it's just too difficult to say what might have happened.

Still, I don't think it's completely unreasonable to say that Buffy and Angelus would never have formed a relationship. I mean, it's unlikely, but not impossible. Assuming that Angelus adjusted to the chip without suicide, I don't think Buffy would have killed him. And remember what Angelus' big spiel was in S2? "To kill this girl, you have to love her." I don't think his obsession with Buffy in S2 was much different than Spike's, actually. Both wanted to kill her, to stalk her, to torment her, to hate her...and I think both loved her without realizing it. Had Angelus been given more time, I think he would have come to realize that what he felt was actually love, and I don't think it's totally off-base to imagine something forming out of that. Especially since Buffy and Angel already had a history. I don't, in any way, think it would have happened in Smashed, or even that the episode Smashed would still exist...but it may have happened, at some point.

 

[passions1989]

I do agree that Spike is just spike, only with more conscience (even before he got a soul) and Angelus is pure evil without a soul.
But knowing Joss Whedon I'm pretty sure that he is talented enough to think of creating the same 'Smashed' ending without the episode ending up in Angelus killing Buffy.

What is Angelus going to get by torturing and killing Buffy? Yeah he would definitely get sadistic pleasure from it, I definitely agree with that, but it would last only a few hours. But the thing that comes after those few hours, the only thing he will get for SURE (after those few hours) is the Scooby gang's wrath, and they would definitely end up killing him, no doubt about it. Would Angelus really want to die in hands of the Scooby gang once and for all?? Would Angelus really want that?

Remember when he killed Jenny Calender in season 2, and he informs Spike and Dru what he did with Jenny. That's when Spike says: What if she did? If you ask me, I find myself preferring the old
Buffy-whipped Angelus. This new, improved one is not playing with a full
sack. (gets a look from Angelus) I love a good slaughter as much as the
next bloke, but his little pranks will only leave us with one incredibly
brassed-off Slayer!


Which is what we do get!

And just when Spike finished saying that, Giles sends fire shooting through the window and burning down the factory and nearly getting Angelus killed (I seriously LOVED that scene. Giles was superb in the that scene!) And Angelus genuinely looked frightened and caught off guard.

And since this is season 6 we are talking about, where the infamous Dark Willow makes her appearance, imagine what she would have done to Angelus if she found out what Angelus did to Buffy. Dark Willow is after all the most powerfull member of the Scooby gang. For one thing, Dark Willow is too powerful, even for someone as famous for his evil and sadistic ways as Angelus was. And another thing, unlike the whole Warren and Dark Willow scene, I think dark Willow would have done a lot more worse things to Angelus than just skinning him alive. And this isn't just any Angelus we are talking about, this is a chipped Angelus.

For one thing she would torture him in ways that were ten times worse than what she did to Warren before she skins Angelus alive. However much Angelus is evil and confident of himself, I don't think even he would want to die in any of the Scooby gang member's hands, let alone a dark Willow's hands.

Unlike how the sex scene was between Buffy and Spike, I think the sex scene between Buffy and Angelus would have been a lot more darker and raw! Or maybe this is just my inner-angelus-fan talking 😀

I kind of have a love/hate relationship to the whole Angelus character lol! I love to imagine the number of different ways the present-day Angelus could get sadistically tortured and his ass ROYALLY kicked, and at the same time I absolutely adore David's gleeful and enthusiastic acting as Angelus! 😀 So a very raw, dark, and rough sex scene between David acting as a chipped-Angelus and Sarah acting as depressed-Buffy would be pretty hot! 😀

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I agree about the differences between the characters of Angel and Spike. I'm just not sure how much relevance that would have on Buffy's decision.

Buffy just plain wanted to feel something. She slept with Spike not because she loved him or cared about or really felt anything toward him other than disgust, but because she wanted to feel *something* -- anything, really, even if it was merely lust and self-loathing. She wanted to feel alive. Spike was a means to an end. Her low opinion of him + his muzzle made it possible for her to use him. Buffy's sleeping with Spike had nothing to do with Spike as a person and everything to do with Spike as an available outlet for Buffy's feelings. If Angelus was in the same position -- if Angelus was an available outlet -- I certainly don't think that the difference in the characters of Spike and Angel(us) would have rendered Buffy's decision different beyond the fact that any sort of remaining sense of self preservation that she had left may have urged her to stay away in the interest of survival. That admitted, it seems equally likely to me that she may have done it anyway without caring that she might die. it is even possible that Angelus' resemblance to Angel may have made him *more* attractive to Buffy in that a monster in her former lover's skin would be more likely to make her feel *something* (and probably a complicated mix of somethings, at that). I just don't see how Angelus would have appeared as any more off limits to a dark, desperate-to-feel Buffy than Spike did. She seemed to need something extreme in order to feel anything at all. Sleeping with Angelus would certainly be extreme.

I see your point, and it's a darn good one. I just like to think that our heroes are deeper than that.

You're 100% right about Buffy's state of mind, but you have to remember that soulless Spike still had chosen unrelenting tourture, which he probably expected would have killed him, over comprimising the safety of Buffy & Dawn, like I said, Spike always had honor, sure a weird sense of it, but he had honor from his siring through his ensoulment.

Angelus had no honor at all, and he would have sold out Buffy & Dawn at whatever time he thought would be the most amusing. Angelus sold out his mate Darla to save himself, he also turned on Jasmine & the Beast within hours of joining them. He held no loyalty to anyone. He'd sell out Darla his century long mate or Spike the closest thing he had to a best friend, to save himself or just for kicks & giggles.

I'm not saying Joss couldn't have pulled it off, I'm saying it would have gone outside of Angelus' nature.

As for Buffy/Spike, I'd say the best comparison would be Wes/Lilah. While both Buffy & Wes started the relationships out of self-loathing, with their mortal enemies, they also picked people who #1 showed a glimmer of nobility with some indication they could be redeemed, and they chose people they were attracted to. Neither were random choices.

Like others said, the prior seasons would have been drastically different if Angelus was in Spike's place anyway:

1.) Angelus wouldn't have worked for or with Adam, regardless of what he promised him. He wouldn't work for or with the Master, the Beast or Jasmine, there's no way he would for a cyborg. It wouldn't matter if Adam offered to remove the chip, Angelus expected the Beast would kill him if he refused the partnership and still turned it down.

2.) Angelus would have tried to kill Adam since he liked to be the Big Bad. He killed the Beast and tried to kill the Immortal for that reason.

3.) Even defanged, Angelus would have been a huge threat (let's assume the chip would neuter him).

4.) Same with Glory, only I'd say he'd have a better shot with her. Her glamor wouldn't work on him, plus he's smarter than Buffy. He would've figured out that she was Ben, and had him taken care of (or tried). If he knew Dawn was the Key, he'd surely have revealed it at the most inopportune time.

5.) Just look at the whole Acathala situation, Angelus went for the big boom to inflict the most damage, where Spike admitted he just liked having fun. In S4 & 5 Angelus would've continued to inflict the most damage possible (assuming the Scoobies didn't take him out, which they would have), and after all that there's no way Buffy would sleep with him.

Point is, you can't house-train Angelus. A fallen PTB couldn't do it and neither could Buffy.

 

[fly on the wall]

I see your point, and it's a darn good one. I just like to think that our heroes are deeper than that.

You're 100% right about Buffy's state of mind, but you have to remember that soulless Spike still had chosen unrelenting tourture, which he probably expected would have killed him, over comprimising the safety of Buffy & Dawn, like I said, Spike always had honor, sure a weird sense of it, but he had honor from his siring through his ensoulment.

Angelus had no honor at all, and he would have sold out Buffy & Dawn at whatever time he thought would be the most amusing. Angelus sold out his mate Darla to save himself, he also turned on Jasmine & the Beast within hours of joining them. He held no loyalty to anyone. He'd sell out Darla his century long mate or Spike the closest thing he had to a best friend, to save himself or just for kicks & giggles.

I'm not saying Joss couldn't have pulled it off, I'm saying it would have gone outside of Angelus' nature.

As for Buffy/Spike, I'd say the best comparison would be Wes/Lilah. While both Buffy & Wes started the relationships out of self-loathing, with their mortal enemies, they also picked people who #1 showed a glimmer of nobility with some indication they could be redeemed, and they chose people they were attracted to. Neither were random choices.

Like others said, the prior seasons would have been drastically different if Angelus was in Spike's place anyway:

1.) Angelus wouldn't have worked for or with Adam, regardless of what he promised him. He wouldn't work for or with the Master, the Beast or Jasmine, there's no way he would for a cyborg. It wouldn't matter if Adam offered to remove the chip, Angelus expected the Beast would kill him if he refused the partnership and still turned it down.

2.) Angelus would have tried to kill Adam since he liked to be the Big Bad. He killed the Beast and tried to kill the Immortal for that reason.

3.) Even defanged, Angelus would have been a huge threat (let's assume the chip would neuter him).

4.) Same with Glory, only I'd say he'd have a better shot with her. Her glamor wouldn't work on him, plus he's smarter than Buffy. He would've figured out that she was Ben, and had him taken care of (or tried). If he knew Dawn was the Key, he'd surely have revealed it at the most inopportune time.

5.) Just look at the whole Acathala situation, Angelus went for the big boom to inflict the most damage, where Spike admitted he just liked having fun. In S4 & 5 Angelus would've continued to inflict the most damage possible (assuming the Scoobies didn't take him out, which they would have), and after all that there's no way Buffy would sleep with him.

Point is, you can't house-train Angelus. A fallen PTB couldn't do it and neither could Buffy.

I don't think we can rightfully predict any of that.
If you had told me, S2, that [S7 spoiler!]

Spoiler

Spike would end up dying to save the world

I would have told you that you were nuts. And, well, we saw more of Spike S2 than we did Angelus. So we really, really can't predict what Angelus would have ended up doing.

As for going against Angelus' nature....wouldn't you say it goes against the nature of a vampire that's killed two Slayers to fall in love with a Slayer? Yet we know that happened.

Spike got four seasons to wind up sleeping with Buffy. Angelus hardly had half a season. So we really can't compare the two, or say that anything would have happened indefinitely.

 

[passions1989]

Actually now that I think of it, I can not only imagine Angelus and Buffy having a 'Smashed' but I can also see the popular 'Dead things' balcony scene between Angelus and Buffy taking place.

If I remember correctly, the whole 'Dead things' balcony scene had a very dark twisted feel to it. What with Spike tempting and whispering into Buffy's ears about her 'dark nature' and Buffy being a 'creature of darkness' (like himself) and that she "belongs in shadows" with him.

Come to think of it, I can definitely imagine Angelus doing the very same thing to Buffy in the "Dead things" balcony scene, i.e. tempting Buffy to accept the fact that she is an animal, a creature of the darkness like himself. After all the source of the slayer's powers is a dark force. Source of the slayer's powers is in fact demonic.

I can see Angelus using this method to turn Buffy darker and twisted (but failing miserably in the end) without actually torturing her and turning her into a vampire like he did to Druisilla.

The starting sex scene in the episode 'Dead things', and the popular balcony scene are two scenes where I'm really curious to see Spike being replaced by Angelus.

 

[Kana]

It's difficult to tell, to be honest. Angelus is less adaptable than Spike and more ruthless. To be honest, I think Angelus would have found a way to get the chip out.

Part of Buffy finding comfort in Spike was about her eshewing her responsibilities and turning to him for support so I can't see Angelus fulfilling that role, but it is too much speculation to be honest.